Spoilers***My Scientology Movie*** Look away now

Discussion in 'Movies, Plays, and Documentaries about Scientology' started by Emma, Sep 12, 2016.

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  1. Adam7986

    Adam7986 Declared SP

    Being brought up in Scientology, I was given no option as to whether or not I should choose Scientology. That means that i don't feel any personal guilt or responsibility for having been a Scientologist nor a Sea Org member. Which admittedly makes it more difficult for me to sympathize with those who chose the life and to perpetuate the culture of fear, control and greed that captured children like me. My own parents included. This may be where our differences lie.

    Either way the titillation that Marty showed in that film was apparent. When someone experiences a trauma, re-enacting it is horrific. I have been interviewed about my experience in Scientology and I have revisited Clearwater and PAC Base several times. Each time it is a deeply emotional experience and although it helps me to separate my past by realizing that these places no longer have control over me, I nonetheless re-experience the pains of the trauma each time I visit them. I know that we all express ourselves differently when it comes to feelings like that. But never would I expect those feelings to express themselves in self-satisfaction and smugness.

    I am not sure how you are choosing to qualify a "leader" but everyone at Int Base had some kind of leadership role, with Marty's being one of the most senior. Marty made no effort to minimize the seniority of his role in the organization so I am not sure why you are going to such lengths. I think we are splitting hairs, maybe splitting atoms at this point. Call him a leader or not the fact is his role was in a leadership capacity.
     
  2. Victoria

    Victoria Patron Meritorious


    Yes, that is the creepy "life is a game" disconnect that $cientologists console themselves with when they know they have done horrible things.
     
  3. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    We have different viewpoints, you mentioned in post #94 that Marty got shit to roll downhill and you caught it. So what I was trying to ask was for more specifics. Like did you get slapped and know the orders came from Marty down thru the chain of command? I'm looking for more specifics on how Marty was violent or bad. But I also pointed out Marty was at Flag on a special project and returned to Int Management base finding it like a Jones town scene.

    Also, Louie is wrong in saying Marty left when he became out of favor. In the video of Marty at Germany he said he realized he had two choices, either do something very drastic or remove himself from the scene and he choose to escape.

    Anyways, I'm pretty much in agreement with Chris Shelton review of the movie and his take on Marty at about 11:10 into it. Chris's and my viewpoint do differ from several here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAZ0ChrVMqQ
     
  4. Chris Shelton

    Chris Shelton Patron with Honors

    Well, I saw this movie and thought about it long and hard. Watched a bunch of other Theroux documentaries on the advice of a friend of mine since I was kind of missing some things in Theroux's style and how he approaches his work. I then re-watched and it and wrote all this. The video is here and the transcript of the whole thing is on my blog if you'd rather read it. It's way too long to put into one post. Just my contribution to the conversation. I know that here especially, the views on Marty are fierce and divided. I have no desire to be partisan or appear to be taking anyone's side on this whole thing. I've got plenty of reasons to be pissed at Marty but I also can see another side too. So anyway, since this seems the appropriate place to stick this:

    [video=youtube;iAZ0ChrVMqQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAZ0ChrVMqQ[/video]

    Edit: LOL. Of course while I was writing this post, Gib above was writing his. So we both posted this at the same time. Gotta laugh. I think that's the second time that's happened to me here.
     
  5. Adam7986

    Adam7986 Declared SP

    I am uncomfortable with the overly-personal turn you keep trying to take in this conversation. My personal experience in Scientology is not related to or in any way represented by this documentary. I am speaking in more general terms. If you can't understand how that works then I am bowing out of the conversation. I am, however, happy to discuss my personal experiences in Scientology with you outside the confines of this documentary and Marty Rathbun because they are not related.

    Marty became out of favor and when he became out of favor he realized he had two choices, do something drastic (classic Marty Rathbun hyperbole) or escape. How does Marty Rathbun escaping prove that Louie is wrong in saying he left when he fell out of favor?

    Lastly what I keep trying to say without the word leader since you keep arguing about semantics:


    David Miscavige and all of the executives at the top of Scientology (of whom Marty Rathbun was the most senior) are jointly responsible for the culture of enslavement, entrapment, greed and fear that consumes Scientologists as a whole. Miscavige couldn't run the organization without help. No one man can manage the money, resources and people of Scientology. So whether or not your feelings say Marty had something to do with the way the Church was being run and the culture within it, the facts are that he is responsible as much as or more than the rest of the executives under Miscavige that help him run the organization.

    No one is more responsible than Miscavige except Hubbard who is dead.
     
  6. Adam7986

    Adam7986 Declared SP

    Great review. Very comprehensive. Thanks for sharing. I appreciate you trying to put a positive twist on some of the things that have largely been interpreted negatively.
     
  7. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    Hey Chris,

    As always I enjoyed your video views!

    I didn't agree with about half of your opinion on the movie, but that's the cool thing about art!

    One thing did, however, leave me scratching my head. That part where you commented about the "standing and applauding" the LRH photo part. When I was watching the documentary I was kind of jolted into a WTF MOMENT when Marty reacted so negatively and stormed off. I had NO idea what that was all about.

    Then, for JOLT #2. You said you would have reacted similarly?? Wutttt? Normally your explanations are embedded with astonishing clarity. But I had no clue at all why you were saying you didn't agree with doing that and how you would have refused or similarly stormed off. Why? Honestly, I am clueless.

    If someone (in the context of a make-believe documentary scene) asked me to do that I would laugh and applaud. Why not? It's so stupid to applaud a con man who is stealing all your money & time, I kind of love it. LOLOLOL

    But really, what's the big deal about applauding a photo? They just got done doing "confronting" TRS and "flattening their bullbait buttons" but then Marty openly dramatizes in front of the cameras what it means to have a "reactive button"? Isn't that a perfect showcase for demonstrating the Scientology mindset?

    To wit, the "expert" and "authority" on having no buttons cannot demonstrate that ability. In fact they are a screaming hypocritical mess--because they cannot do what they tell others to do. They have no special knowledge/ability--but never for a moment suspect that they, themselves, are not the ultimate authority on that subject. Hilarious!

    Super-able people who aren't able.

    That is the hoax of Scientology, personified!

    If Louis' documentary didn't capture the wacky mindset (like the photo applause moment) all it would be left with is drearily trying to describe how scientologists go into an auditing room and mumble for a few hours about wholetrack gorilla goal implants and then at the end F/N, laugh and feel triumphant. TRANSLATION: The "everyman" experience in scientology is punitively boring to talk about or depict. Listening to people's delusional wins is my definition of hell. LOL

    Keep up the wonderful work, your videos are awesome!
     
  8. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    I'll answer your question for me and not Chris. I answered it in post number 53 of this tread.
     
  9. Chris Shelton

    Chris Shelton Patron with Honors

    Thanks HH. I really appreciate your compliments on my work. You aren't the only one who doesn't seem to understand my point on this applause thing, which really puzzles me because I thought I was really clear about it. Let me re-iterate.

    (1) Louis specifically said that if Marty wasn't okay with them doing the applause thing, he wouldn't do it. Marty made it very clear in no uncertain terms that he wasn't okay with it and even walked out to demonstrate how un-okay he was with it and Louis did it anyway. Like I said, pretty shitty of Louis to say one thing and do another right in Marty's face. That alone was my first problem with this. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive but just this weekend I attended and spoke at a cult recovery conference and I saw some people who were very triggered by everyday things and learned a few things about this. In Scientology terms, I guess they'd call it "restimulated" but whatever you want to call it, it's a real phenomenon. I've felt it plenty of times since leaving and if someone did what Louis did, I'd be pissed at them.

    (2) Marty explained in what I thought were very lucid terms that he was not interested in applauding LRH because this is a "gateway" to the Scientology mind control mindset. I totally agree. In Scientology, anything good that happens to you, it's all because of LRH - not you. Anything bad that happens, it's on you - it's never Scientology or LRH's fault. Marty explained that in his own terms to Louis and the actors. It may not sound like a big deal to an outsider or never-in (I'm not sure if you were in or not actually), but here's the thing: we talk about Scientology mind control and indoctrination but very rarely do we get down and dirty on the subtle specifics of how the mind control works. Well, this whole applauding LRH after every course period is one of the points of indoctrination we are talking about. Marty explained that right there in front of everyone and one of the actors was even nodding in understanding when Marty was talking. It triggered Marty and it would have triggered me too. I was a course supervisor, after all. I led people in these applauses after every course period every single day that I supervised, which I did for years. So I know exactly what this is all about and why it's done and the effects it creates. It's subtle, it's hard to understand, it may not make a lot of sense to someone who didn't do it. For me, it makes total sense that applauding to L. Ron Hubbard after leaving Scientology behind you is something you would simply never do again. I never ever would do that, not after everything I've learned and been through since I left Scientology behind me.

    Perhaps I should have said all that in the video, but I thought I was being crystal clear when I said this:

    "Yet then Louis purposefully pushes Marty on the idea of applauding to L. Ron Hubbard, even when Marty clearly and I thought very accurately explains that now Louis is crossing a line into how Scientology mind control starts to operate. Louis said he didn't want to do it if it was going to make Marty feel uncomfortable, which it very clearly did, and yet Louis then went ahead and led his actors in an applause to a non-existent L. Ron Hubbard portrait. Frankly, this would have pissed me off too and I don't fault Marty at all for walking away from them. Yet in many comments I've seen about this, Marty is the one made out to be the strange bird for walking away. Nope, that wasn't strange at all and anyone who truly understands how mind control and triggers really work would understand that. On a more sinister note, perhaps Louis did understand it and knew exactly what he was doing and went ahead and did it anyway. If that's the case, I'd say that was kind of shitty of him but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was not purposefully trying to trigger Marty for the sake of his documentary."

    Does any of this help make my statements clearer? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending in asking. I just want to make sure I'm being clear.
     
  10. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    ..

    Okay, I went back to read post #53 and here it is (again) for readers' convenience:


    Question: How would "clapping" be a "way to entrap people into scientology" any more than sitting them down in a (staged) course-room setting and getting them to do TRs?

    I can't see ANY slightest difference.

    Everyone is acting out fictional scripted/directed roles. How come they are impervious to Scientology whilst doing TRs--but suddenly they can be instantly implanted or overwhelmed by the screenplay calling for their character to clap?

    I don't get it.
     
  11. Emma

    Emma Mother of Dragons Administrator

    ^ This. I don't get it either.
     
  12. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    See how subtle it is? Your mind skates off understanding it. That's some slippy mind control... Mimsey

    [​IMG]
     
  13. oneonewasaracecar

    oneonewasaracecar Gold Meritorious Patron

    There was no need to dramatize the picture clapping as actual footage of real Scientologists clapping Hubbard's picture is all over the internet and it's not exactly riveting drama. He wanted to see Marty's response. Louis asked him about the violent scenes afterwards and he asked him about the TR sequences afterwards. Part of the documentary was to examine Marty from a critical viewpoint and Louis wanted to know how he felt about the clapping.

    Marty clearly did not like being examined critically. Most people don't. This comes across in the car when Marty criticizes Louis for asking the same questions over and over as if to trip him up. Some people really don't like being interviewed when they are the focus. This is what journalists do.

    In most of the interviews he did in the past, David Miscavige was the focus. In this case it was largely Marty.
     
  14. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    I'm with HH and Emma....what the hell is the difference? The film was about recreating the experience of being a Scientologist. Part of that was standing and clapping and hip-hip-hooray. Why not show all of it? It was all part of the mind-f**k, the TRs, the drills, the "processing", the group agreement, learning cult nomenclature, new cult thinking processes, Hubbard group praise....all of it.

    Of course, I haven't seen the movie, I reserve the right to change my mind after I do. And WHY on earth, by the way, can't we see it in the US right now? Can anyone explain? Is it in the lawyer's hands? Are they trying to ban it here? I don't get why we have to wait.
     
  15. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    .

    Thanks Chris. I'll break down your post and attach some comments:


    Having worked in the film industry and documentaries, I'd call that "director's prerogative" or "creative control". Meaning, when you get on location and scenes are being filmed, you frequently find out what "works" or "doesn't work".

    And the director makes the at-the-moment call to try the scene a different way. Re-shoot it. Re-write it. Or, even (gasp! lol) improvise it and see what happens.

    Marty was not the "MY SCN MOVIE" producer, director or writer. He was not the financier. He was not the distributor. So, his creative input is of very little consequence when the real director makes a decision. If he doesn't like the creative decision, he has the right to storm off, which he did. But, that's about all he has the power to do.

    It isn't a therapy session, it's entertainment. That's the directors first loyalty to keep the movie entertaining (and hopefully get his investor's capital repaid).

    As far as promising Marty nobody will clap, I don't recall that moment, but if you say it happened, I am sure it did. But, so what, he changed his mind? It probably could have been more gracefully handled on both sides. Louis could have said, "hey, i'd really like to try a take with the clapping. If you don't feel comfortable you can sit this scene out." Or, absent that, Marty could have said: "Hey Louis, I don't feel comfortable, I'll sit this one out if you don't mind." Then calmly walked off stage without making a scene or trying to play the victim.


    Triggering is just a new word for human reaction. People react to stimuli, both good and bad. When someone has a phobia or unnatural fear/reaction to something innocuous, many modern day therapists have had huge success with their patients, not by advising them to AVOID it, but to CONFRONT IT, in very small stages. (e.g. agoraphobic patient "Okay, today we are going to walk one step towards your front door. We are not going to open it. You will still be 19 feet away from it. The blinds will still be closed. Nobody is going to open the door. You won't see the outside. Just one small step in that direction..." )

    Perhaps it is part of the indoctrination of people in an org. But this was actors on a stage. I don't agree that there is any "gateway" involved in clapping in that situation. Frankly, that seems absurd to me.



    I was in a little.

    Worked on mission staff, org staff, Sea Org, AO's, St. Hills. Trained (as pro course supervisor) hundreds of auditors on everything from HQS up through and including SHSBC. Case supervised at AO and St. Hills and orgs. Crammed top auditors at top orgs. Audited professionally both on org staff and in field.

    So, yeah, I was in, just a bit. LOL.

    Okay, so maybe for some people, anything to do with "clapping" is a "trigger" that makes them feel they are beginning to tumble down the mind-control nightmare again. Maybe "clapping" is like someone hearing the strident violins in the shock-scenes from "PSYCHO". Scary stuff.

    But, my advice to anyone suffering from that is simply. Give it some more time. The music will eventually fade out and it won't be so scary. After the scary sound effects fade out, all that is left is the stupid.

    By the way, I used to do a little experiment after I installed a full THX surround sound mega system for watching movies on a big screen at home. First, let me say, that adding full THX DOLBY (to movie theater standards) makes a scary scene about 600% scarier. Seriously. I would watch the scene both ways. Without the sound FX/music the scene is fairly void of any scariness. It's kind of silly. But add the sound and there are visceral and psychological triggers.

    That's what I think of "clapping". It's a sound effect that is used by Scientology. I don't get restimulated at all, unless they turn the clapping amp up to "11". LOL
     
  16. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor


    It'll be released in the US after New Years. Sometimes films have unusual "rollout" distribution schedules to qualify for certain awards and/or to create momentum and buzz in various world markets.

    I saw it but I'm really looking forward to watching it again. That is the highest compliment I know of to pay a movie or documentary.

    I guess you are going to love it. It is wonderfully entertaining!
     
  17. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    of course ex members are going to get into a debate about the movie, but what really matters is does the movie show how crazy scientology is, afterall where are the clears and OT's? LOL none exist.

    My question is does the movie portray that?
     
  18. Chris Shelton

    Chris Shelton Patron with Honors

    Well, I'm tracking on everyone not getting it with the clapping scene and I guess all this really highlights for me is (a) every individual responds to Scientology differently; (b) every person has their own sensitivities, perceptions, ideas and conclusions about what they did and did not get from Scientology; (c) everyone has different ideas of what is painful for them to remember or recall and what kind of scars Scientology left in their psyche. This is how it should be. While Scientology pretends to be a "one size fits all" religious philosophy, the fact is that there is no such thing. Everyone is different.

    In this particular case, this was something I was able to empathize with Marty on specifically and I did my damnedest to explain why. Yes, it's kind of weird for me to say that, as I have never really felt on the same page with Marty on much of anything but there were moments in this film where I felt like I was getting his struggle and felt that in the same situation, I may well have reacted similarly. I wouldn't have thrown a fit on set but I would have disagreed with the whole clapping thing for exactly the same reason. That much I do know. Whether he and I agree on much of anything else is doubtful. But also as I said in my video, not everyone needs to agree with me nor should they. We are all going to have different views and reactions to the movie and in this case, there is no "right or wrong" so I hope that while I can acknowledge that this whole thing is no big deal to some of you, it was a deal for some others of us and that while that may not make sense, it is still how it is and it doesn't mean we're wrong for feeling that way.
     
  19. Chris Shelton

    Chris Shelton Patron with Honors

    No! And that was probably one of my biggest problems with it. There was a LOT that Louis did not talk about regarding Scientology. And his efforts to get Marty to open up and be the Scientology guinea pig who will open up and tell you all about how they feel and why they feel that way was a total bomb. That's why my review was primarily negative.
     
  20. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    (I haven't watched the controversial video yet.)
    I still don't understand why the LRH student clapping was a big deal to Marty as that IS done in SCN (accurate history).

    Actually, we did not do this in course rooms at the Riverside Mission BUT we did do this every day on SHSBC at ASHO.
    It's just one point of behaviour that was done in class rooms.

    Maybe I missed something important that would explain? I guess you tried but I still don't get it.
     

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