The Edge interview with high level scientology defector (Bill Franks)

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous Reports from Newspapers, Blogs, and ' started by JustMe, Jun 7, 2012.

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  1. NoName

    NoName A Girl Has No Name

    All joking aside, that would be the logical way to handle it, and a sensible assumption for a footsoldier who doesn't want to end up in the RPF. But I was always bothered by the idea of Truth and infallibility of the dreck. Well, infallible until LRH says its fallible. At which point it's no longer infallible. Or it works (until LRH decides it doesn't work).

    One of the many contradictions in the Co$.
  2. appledore3

    appledore3 Patron

    There seem to be a couple others who received the same message run that night. I was bad bad bad to have a student or PC "Blow"... It could get all who worked with him sent to the chain locker.
  3. appledore3

    appledore3 Patron

    Bill Franks is a completely different person than Marty Rathburn, worked with Hubbard directly for many many years. He has been living his life ever since the 81-82 take over. He is calm, and has nothing to gain by speaking out.

    What he says in the interview matches with several personal experiences I have had in this area. I have no doubt of what he says.
  4. JustMe

    JustMe Patron Meritorious

    Same here. And I know that you did work directly with LRH and have posted and spoken well about many of your experiences.

    As always, thank you:)
  5. appledore3

    appledore3 Patron

    I understand where you are coming from Mimsie. I was on the lines to read all of LRH's traffic, every morning for years. Some of it was just plain cruel and mean. But not very many people were allowed in on that private circle, so there are not many (like you and I) who can speak of it.

    But that doesn't mean that the few of us are lying or making it up. I couldn't make up some of his telexes.. they could be jarring, to say the least.
  6. JustMe

    JustMe Patron Meritorious

    Hubbard bold face lied many, many times. Other examples from post 9 of this thread below:
  7. appledore3

    appledore3 Patron

    Thank you so much for this Bill, and for your frank and truthful interview. There are several areas that I witnessed myself from another 'location' than where you were -- Like the setting up of MSH. You have now given me the broader view.

    Your honesty is like a breath of fresh air blowing through all these various points of view and conclusions. And yes, we have all be hurt or damaged by this 'thing" no matter the length of time of involvement...

    Bless you my frend,
    Nancy Foster Many
  8. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    That, my friend, No Name, was the most difficult thing for me to believe after I was declared and started reading stuff on the net about Hubbard. The do as I say, not as I do aspect of him, the duplicity, started destroying my faith in him and what he wrote. I still find stuff like the Bill Franks tape which I just listened to, well, not to sound overly dramatic, shocking and yet believable. And then I think of the indi's I know, and how they still believe in his tech, either excuse his lies as exaggerations because that sort of person is that way, or won't brook listening to entheta about him. I am surprised the depth of the hold he has over them.


  9. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    And this interview came out close to the time Marty's book did. :biggrin:
  10. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Hubbard did his job of mind control VERY well, indeed!

    I am not at all surprised about the depth of the hold Hubbard still has on some.

    It is simple really. To the degree that any person accepts and believes more and more of the details of Hubbard's make-believe fantasy world known as Scientology, to THAT degree it continues to have a hold over them.

    Hubbard talks about how "considerations and agreements determine ones reality". That is true. Hubbard did a very good job of creating an indoctrination system that masterfully "implants" a new set of considerations and agreements into the minds of the Scientology followers.

    That is all that is going on. People believe, they come to believe HARD, and they become trapped within the web of their own beliefs. Hubbard knew what he was doing. For all the things he may have been, he was not "stupid". :no:

    Hubbard took the activities of "mind control" to new levels of expertise. He was NOT a nice man. :no:
  11. RolandRB

    RolandRB Rest in Peace

    Would it be useful to have a motive and perhaps a dead body killed by foul means by an unknown assailant or should we not bother with these minor details?
  12. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    I sincerely hope you have the best security advice possible!
  13. Veda

    Veda Sponsor


    Some background material - reposts - in case any puzzled newbie lurkers are looking in...

    According to Jesse Prince, former senior Scientology executive:

    "Miscavige is continuing to carry out LRH's orders...

    "...Miscavige is doing his best to forward Command Intention, which is contained in the huge LRH orders database of the INCOMM computer system of Scientology..."

    From Denise Brennan:

    "There was a real secret body of people directly run by Hubbard."

    From a 1986 interview of Martin Samuels, former Mission Holder, and founder of the Delphian School, from the 'Reflections' chapter of the book, 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?' :

    "Hubbard operated according to a couple of key patterns.

    "The first pattern involved basically decent well intentioned people... no one was able to rise in the organization to a point of any real proximity to him, without being attacked and vilified...

    "And of course the next person thinks he or she is immune...

    "The next pattern: It's reap and rape. Hubbard would let the reins loose. He'd let people believe they really could get on with it... He'd let people believe they really could prosper to the full extent of their own ability, and enjoy the fruits of their labor.

    "And, with that kind of freedom, prosperity does occur, Inevitably, though, he'd come along and rape and pillage and rip off and take what had been produced. The most dramatic example of this was '82, '83, when he 'raped' his most decent people in management along with the mission holders, and looted the entire mission network.

    "And look at this pattern... He surrounded himself with absolute hooligans as 'managers'; guys who beat the shit out of people. This man, who 'is this OT, the author of Science of Survival, completely able to predict human behavior', surrounded himself with ruthless people - like Miscavige - who got there because they emulated Hubbard's savagery. They emulated his total willingness to completely break, use, and discard another person.

    "And then after their hands were so bloody - and the only reason their hands were bloody was that they were doing what Hubbard wanted - when it finally started to get to the point where it couldn't be tolerated by people anymore, Hubbard wiped them out. Then he said. 'My God! I didn't know!' Scapegoat. He even did that to his own wife, who went to jail in his place...

    "But the thing that's amazing, and to me terrifying, is the characteristic of the mind, my mind, your mind, and apparently many other people's minds, where I could buy this horseshit, where I could participate in it."

    Jesse Prince, Legal Declaration, 1999:

    Excerpt from the 1991 David Mayo (Ex Scientologist, Class XII and former Senior C/S International, and Hubbard's personal auditor) article on 'Clear':

    "It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were 'clear' at a certain point..."

    And from author Russell Miller's interview of David Mayo from August 1986.

    "What worried me was that I saw some things he did and statements he made that showed his intentions were different from what they appeared to be...

    "He told me he was obsessed with an insatiable lust for power and money. He said it very emphatically. He thought it wasn't possible to get enough. He didn't say it as if it was a fault, just his frustration that he couldn't get enough."
  14. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    Re: Bill Franks says the Cof$ murdered a British Member of Parliament.

    I think that since Bill has already put this out in public, the discussion about it here is worthwhile. If Bill is BSing we will at least learn more about the endlessly fascinating arts of BSing, which is something I have learned more about than anything else on ESMB. Sorry to all non BSers or just trivial BSers, that's not meant as a general put down of ESMB and all the wonderful people here :). It really is true though, I gained my PHD in BS analysis here and that will help me in life.:)
  15. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    He said he told the FBI (or who ever) about it. What the hell difference does it make beyond that? You could say it is more negative pr or truth about the real nature of the CofS, and the public needs to know. But I would guess he read it in a doc. Who knows if the docs still exist? If not, it fast becomes a he said, she said situation - or a rumor or an urban legend or if a doc is found, possibly may even may get get to be a fact, actual and provable. The FBI may have gotten the docs in their raid. If he spent 2 months going through the GO files, I'll bet it was shredded. Who in the church would keep evidence like that around? If they do have it, who knows where it is, who is going to go get it? Not the FOI. Maybe a mole. Where's James Bond when you need him?

    The issue is as good as dead.

  16. NoName

    NoName A Girl Has No Name

    I believe that view is best summed up with the quote, "Show me a motherfucking Clear"

    Genuine Tone 40 stuff.
  17. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Banned

    In the context of the interview, it appears to me that they needed to know this TRUTH in order to solve whatever the problem was they were dealing with at the moment. It is rather amazing how the TRUTH can make what otherwise appear to be complex problems disappear.

    And Why would "Ron" say to Hana Eltringham (Now Whitfield) who was Deputy Commodore at the time:

    "It's all just hypnosis"

    While walking through a passageway?

    Why would "Ron" want everything done NOW?

    Cause he KNEW someday folks might wake up to the truth and run him out of town? Perhaps like they did in Elizabeth NJ ~50, or Wichita KS in 51, of Phoenix Az ~53 or the UK in ~66, or Corfu in ~68?
  18. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Banned

    I knew Bill personally, we were not close, but I saw him and knew his work.
    I too have no doubt about what he says.
    Arnie Lerma
  19. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Here's another link to the program:

    I just listened to it, and the part about the murder of a MP is only a brief mention, and is vague. It's unknown whether it was a murder disguised as an accident - which would be more Scientological than an upfront guns-blasting homicide.

    Be that as it may, this interview is packed with interesting information regarding a variety of areas, and Bill Franks comes across as extremely credible.

    Franks mentions that it was L. Ron Hubbard who ran Scientology's Fair Game operations. Briefly discussing Paulette Cooper: "Basically, everything came from Hubbard. He actually ran that day to day."

    And as for Hubbard throwing his wife under the bus, which has been known for some time, Bill Franks adds some fascinating detail:

    "Hubbard had me and Miscavige and a few others interview Mary Sue... and... we had a van outside that was taping all this. And, basically, it was to get as much incriminating - to get her to incriminate herself as much as possible, and this would be, through a circumlocutious manner, fed to the government."

    Tom Smith/Interviewer: "And this was Hubbard's idea?"

    Bill Franks: "This was from L. Ron Hubbard to set up his wife. Right."

    Some background on Hubbard's "philosophy" regarding his wife:

    Late 1966: Hubbard had what appeared to be a nervous breakdown - post Rhodesia. During the post-Rhodesia period, Hubbard rebounded by becoming the Commodore, and by inventing Xenu and OT 3's Incident 2 as the galactic super-engram that "destroyed the sanity of every man, woman and child," etc. This explained why people were laughing when he sat down at the piano... (Only a galaxy-wide super-duper-engram could explain why "wogs" were not awe struck and happily obedient to L. Ron Hubbard's wishes.)

    In the chapter 'Launching the Sea Org', in the book 'Bare-Faced Messiah', Virginia Downsborough was interviewed, by author Russell Miller, about her time in Las Palmas with L. Ron Hubbard.

    Downsborough was surprised by the large number of bottles of pills that were around Hubbard's bed where he lay moping. She did not report any physical injury. Here's an excerpt:

    "He talked a lot about Sara Northrup and seemed to want to make sure that I knew that he had never married her. I didn't know why it was so important to him; I'd never met Sara and couldn't care less, but he wanted to persuade me that the marriage had never taken place. When he talked about his first wife, the picture he put out was of this poor wounded fellow coming home from the war and being abandoned by his wife and family because he would be a drain on them. He said he planned every move along the way with Mary Sue to avoid being victimized again."
  20. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Well, in all fairness, Ron said he was "Mankind's Greatest Friend".

    He never claimed anything about Womankind.