The Verdict

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Clay Pigeon, May 1, 2018.

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  1. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    I'm William Birdwood b. 21 October 1949 in North Conway New Hampshire. Served in United States Army 26 June 1968-26 January 1970, honorably discharged. A professing Christian and lawfully ordained member of clergy.

    I studied Auditing in San Francisco March 1971-April 1972 and served as Staff Staff Auditor at FCDC September 1972-June 1974

    I am very well impressed with Auditing and Auditor Training but I am also a strong critic of CoS

    I have a high respect for differences of opinion and, for the most a sincere affection for those who hold and express them.

    I am at a loss for understanding how I could be seen as a troll.

    Could you give me any clue as to why I am alleged to be a "troll"?
  2. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Here's one of the definitions of an internet troll; feel free to google other definitions:

    "An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion"
    (definition #3 in Urban Dictionary)

    So some examples of this could include going onto an internet forum which consists of former members of the CoS (many of which suffered long-term damage as a result of their Scientology experiences), incessantly promoting the benefits of Scientology and how wonderful the founder of Scientology is, and doing this even in threads where it would be way off-topic to do so.

    Also, posting inflammatory posts such as denying that the ordering of small children into a dangerous chain locker on a ship for days and weeks at a time is serious child abuse (when done by Hubbard), as you've done many times.

    That's it for starters.

    For a more recent example, you posted this just under two hours ago:

    You're promoting auditing and auditor training, as you've done many hundreds of times in the past. If you did it on an occasional basis it wouldn't be a big deal. But your post has ZERO to do with the subject matter of the thread you posted in. The thread is about Scientology TV. And there's been times you've done this routinely post after post after post, causing many threads to become derailed with your off-topic promotion of Hubbard and Scientology (and others responding to you).
  3. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Our debate concerning chain locker has been entirely centered on Derek Greene who was released unharmed after two days

    This is harsh treatment of a child which can be considered mild child abuse particularly by a generation raised in accord with the counsel of Dr Benjamin Spock

    I hold to my position

    Furthermore it is those who HOWL over Derek Greene who doing so in an inflammatory fashion to generate villification of Hubbard and his work

    My post in dispute is intended to pour the waters of tolerance, understanding, sense of proportion, forgiveness on the emotional arson of those who prove they really don't have any case against Hubbard by harping about a MINOR TRANSGRESSION WHICH CAUSED NO HARM


    Derek Greene was made uncomfortable for 48 hours when he was four years old therefore L Ron Hubbard was EVIL!!! His books must be burned and the church he founded must be DESTROYED NOT ONE STONE LEFT RESTING ON ANOTHER

    I don't know if you've noticed or not, apparently not, but I have stated that maybe Hubbard was Evil...
  4. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    No. It. Hasn't!


    That is 100% FALSE.

    While Derek Green was discussed, our debate centered on the practice of placing children into the chain locker of a ship. It did not center on any one individual. Many other individuals were discussed.

    Also, you assert Derek Greene was released unharmed when you never presented an iota of evidence to demonstrate such.

    Your post I'm quoting is a perfect example of trolling.

    I'm certainly not interested in redoing that debate.


    Anyone interested can go back and read the "in defense of Hubbard" thread.

    And they'll see clearly the debate didn't center on Derek Greene.
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
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  5. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Well Pitsy

    I know of Derek Greene and the eight year old deaf girl

    Also vumba was eleven when she spent a week in the chain locker.

    I think in this context a person is no longer a child at the age of twelve

    There has been some hazy allusion to other children being chain lockered but I haven't been in any debates where any specifics have been presented

    And there are no indications Derek Greene suffered any harm nor any reason to believe he did.

    Children are usually very resilient creatures who bounce back quickly from diddlysquat things like a couple days in the chain locker

    Whose danger, just by the way has been exaggerated. I was given to believe if the devil claw were released a person in the locker was going to be harmed quite seriously but not long ago someone wrote having been in the locker when that happened. It was noisy and would doubtless be terrifying. And there is the possibility of clothing being entangled the chain but the danger was much less than I had been given to believe.
  6. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    What you're saying here is absolutely not true. :no:

    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and chalk it up to faulty memory, but there are other accounts posted when you were very much present, including the thread I just linked to above. And the debate never centered around a single individual such as Derek Greene.

    I'm certainly not going to debate it all over again; but if necessary, will post examples from the thread to back up my statements here.

    It would just be easier though if you go back and read that "in defense of Hubbard" thread.
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  7. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    I understand you. You are much like Donald H. Rogers as per the latest letters posted on Tony O blog.

    Going back in history, theholedoesnotexist made a comment about a book Rogers wrote, it would sound like you.

    TheHoleDoesNotExist • 8 hours ago
    Another example of how intelligence has nothing to do with it. An education on scientific protocols and critical thinking would have helped. Engineers are not scientists either. Clearly. And information travelled by turtle speed.

    I find similarities in the rare instances we can find detailed account of those around Hubbard in the early days. Not sure why Rogers had a hard time finding the Koontz, especially Jonathan W. Koontz.

    You can read Jonathan's stories of his time with Hubbard in "The Way Home and How To Get There". There's a full section on Hubbard/Dianetics and it's very similar to Roger's riff. Jonathan was into woo; passed on Scientology though. Tells how Hubbard hooked millionaire Purcell. Deliberately squeezing $ out of the Foundation - bought 6 ties, all the same, each $250, a lot of dough then. Quite revealing as to how Hubbard stole ideas from everyone he was around and that he did so knowingly and with full intent. A few exerpts

    see more


    Share ›


    Here's the link to Rogers book (just click on the blue to get a expanded version):"jonathan+w+koontz"&source=bl&ots=ToCMzqZ0Dm&sig=4UxoOanlaTeeRVyIKa58WSWqzbg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiopIubmfnaAhWC5YMKHRkgCUkQ6AEITDAI#v=onepage&q=hubbard&f=false

    So just like Rogers, a early Dianetics person, he found good stuff in Hubbard's dianetics, and Rogers says stay away from scientology.

    Much like you.
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  8. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    No Pitsy...

    I didn't read the whole "In defense of Hubbard" thread but if you check it yourself you'll find when you, FBM, HH and I engaged in lively discourse it was entirely in relation to Derek Greene. In fact at that time I was surprised none of you three entered the more perjorative case of the eight year old deaf girl into the debate.

    And though I would agree that to have been rather objectionable the story ends in a way that affirms the propriety of extending tolerance, understanding, compassion and forgiveness to Hubbard on the subject of the chain locker. The girl had been there five days and some good woman on the ship found out about it and appealed to John McMaster. He checked it out and they went to Hubbard. His response was "O God! I didn't know. Well get her out." Yes, yes, yes I know, the stupid sonofabitch should have known about it as he was the one who ordered it. And after he said "get her out" I'm sure he just went back to what he was doing and never gave it second thought. Still (though I suppose you will contest the statement) Ron's response to the appeal shows him not to be a heartless child abusing monster

    The chain locker is ancient history. No, it doesn't reflect well on Hubbard but it's still A. a minor transgression and B. ancient history. Yes. It's not something CoS will ever publish in their history of The Founder but it should certainly be noted by others. But it shouldn't be thought an issue

    Current CoS treatment of children IS an issue. At FCDC I married the woman who was heading the "Children's Org". Those kids were not abused. Not per se. Kathie loved them and did superb work with the infintessimal resources she was given. What sucks is both the penurious funding and even more the general neglect by staff member parents.
  9. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Thanx Gibsie

    It's not scientology I warn against but CoS

    And I don't go long in warning of it because of all the other posters who do that for me.

    That's why I love ESMB. I am exceptionally impressed with Hubbard's work. I've extraordinary results. I believe I've gotten "OT" results but I can't claim to be certain of it because it is impossible to prove it to myself much less to someone else. Nonetheless Tom Brady was a rookie QB drafted in the sixth round going into the 2002 Super Bowl as 14 point underdog. I was absolutely certain going in my Patriots would win AND I augured Tom for four more rings thereafter.

    It's in the record book now...
  10. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    OK, I did check it myself.

    I would recommend that YOU check it YOURSELF, because what you've posted is absolutely false. Here's the link for your convenience: (from about post # 262 on)

    The discussion in that thread was not limited to FBM, HH, and the two of us. Many others were involved, many of whom clearly expressed their disgust of your defense of child abuse.

    And discussion was not limited to discussion of Derek Greene and/or a couple others. That Hubbard ordered a young girl who was a deaf mute into the chain locker was posted multiple times. And other firsthand accounts were posted as well.

    And now you're claiming not to have read this entire thread? The same thread you posted hundreds of times in? :faceslap:

    I'm probably permanently done with this "discussion". It's seriously a waste of time. Anyone interested can go back and read that 2000+ post thread linked to above.
  11. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    That link goes only to page one.

    Again, at that time I was surprised no one challenge me about the deaf girl


    No one did Pitsy.

    And you, FBM and HH were the primary debaters, backed up by a Greek Chorus of shrieking harpies vastly confused and outraged over a picayune diddlysquat minor offense way off in the distant past

    An occurence which, yes, is considered a MINOR, BORDERLINE form of child abuse by our tepid modern standards but which would NOT be considered child abuse in most places most times in the course of human history and most any anthropologist will tell you most tribal societies today press harsher ordeals on their children.
  12. This is NOT OK !!!!

    This is NOT OK !!!! Gold Meritorious Patron

    The SOLs expired because the Fuck L Ron Hubbard spent ALL HIS TIME ON THE LAM.

    In the 40s from bounced check collectors (but not all of them - he was convicted once)

    In the early 50's hiding out in Cuba from process servers.

    In the late 50's running off to England to hide from process servers and US government.

    In the 60's from English courts.

    In the 70's from bla, bla, bla

    In the 80's from bla, bla, bla.

    And now he's doing his Running Program around stars at Target 2.

    The guy was a non-stop crime wave and I don't give a shit how tasty his brew of hypnotic suggestion mixed with meditation seems to you.

    NOW, will you knock all this off and get back to polishing off your Magnum Opus "How to make cars part like the Red Sea.... and Other Tales from America's Greatest Hack"?
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  13. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Okay, TINOK, I understand...

    Yes the Bruins got dunked in the second round...


    You're not happy, I understand, I'm a New Hampshireman myself

    Get on out to the woodshed and split cordwood for half an hour while the old lady fixes some flapjacks with sweet creamery butter and Grade A pure local maple syrup and we'll talk later
  14. This is NOT OK !!!!

    This is NOT OK !!!! Gold Meritorious Patron

    Well, you can still "take responsibility" for the C's amazing run in the NBA playoffs!

    I prefer B Grade - it's more Mapley (is that a word?)
  15. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Yes, the link goes to page one of the thread. I provided you the link because it seemed from your comments you were referring to a completely different thread, and I wanted to ensure that that wasn't the case.

    There were multiple postings in the thread about the deaf mute girl in the chainlocker. I'm not sure what you mean by "no one challenging me about the deaf girl".

    And sorry, there were no "primary debaters". It was a discussion thread on ESMB like any other discussion thread, and their were plenty of other participants. Flunk for revisionist history! (for your repeated mischaracterization of what went down in that thread). Many individuals in the thread besides HH, Freebeing, and myself shared similar feelings towards your postings. I've posted a sample from several other individuals below.

    And yeah, you've made it pretty clear you don't consider locking children into a chain locker for days and weeks at a time real child abuse, especially when the defendant is L. Ron Hubbard.

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  16. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    that's cool. I'm more impressed with earlier philosophy works. Such as Edmund Burke's works on the sublime.

    I understand your place and need to have a debate and I understand your sublime experiences with dianetics and OT, but I'm no longer a Hubbard fan, so I'll leave yourself to being a clay pigeon in having a debate.

    Last edited: May 11, 2018
  17. Dave B.

    Dave B. Maximus Ultimus Mostimus

    You're not tracking. You don't do that to kids. Any excuse for it is bullshit.
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  18. IWantOffThisTrain

    IWantOffThisTrain Eternal Optimist

    Telling a parent you have killed their child and watched chopped up pieces of her body float down the river is NOT something ANY sane parent would say. Even in the most heated of divorces sane people do not stoop to that level. The fact that you excuse it or seem to think it's reasonable for any reason is mind-blowing. Hubbard was a horrible man. Nothing positive he may have written or done, excuses or makes up for that one action let alone all of the horrible things he did or condoned. NOTHING!!!
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  19. Little David

    Little David Silver Meritorious Patron

    I very strongly agree with you. Hubbard was a sick, disgusting creep and saying that to the mother about their child proves it.

    I'm glad Alex Gibney put it in "Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief" and had an actress read it from Sara's written account. It was very effective in illustrating Hubbard's extreme, unconscionable attempt to feel controlling and powerful over a woman who left him.

    Photos of L. Ron Hubbard, their baby, Alexis and the mother, Sara:


    These photos were taken at the home across the street from the home in Bay Head, NJ where Sara helped Hubbard with his writing of Dianetics. That home is now owned by Scientology as a historic site but you probably won't find these photos there and they aren't on any of Scientology's web pages (Scientology like Hubbard did, tries to pretend that Sara and Alexis never existed). Which home Sara and Hubbard stayed in is still open to debate in my opinion.
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
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  20. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    There were a number of other children that were subjected to the chain locker. One was a 5 or 6 year old deaf and mute girl.
    Are you trying to convince people that you understand the trauma that these children went through and it was not harmful to them?
    Are you trying to convince people that these children were not a part of hubbard's "work"?
    Some of hubbard's work was vilified by hubbard hiself as he was "researching" it.
    I believe that you hope to convince people, to the same degree of conviction that you have convinced yourself, that hubbard's "work" stands separate of his actions. I also believe that people now realize that hubbard's actions were his "work".