The Verdict

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Clay Pigeon, May 1, 2018.

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  1. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    Gee, I wonder where they learned to act that way from.
  2. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    There it is! In a nutshell! Right on the tip of your mind's tongue! Think less trees more forced!
  3. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Yeah George, no doubt, Elron is the exemplar and the bandmaster.

    He was something less than the most desirable of fathers himself, though apparently he treated his daughters much better than his sons. Wouldn't even follow his own good advice. Quentin didn't want to be an auditor and the old man pushed him up CLXII. That's a PTS Type E situation which as we know proved most tragic.

    And he wanted everything he could get from staff with scant if any concern for their offspring. And same for public - don't save that $$$ for your kids college; buy auditing! buy training!


    This crap sucks massively


    Many public are well reputed to be very good parents. I know I was. I loved my sons dearly and exceptionally well and I developed skills which served me well as a father from my studies in Scn.
  4. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron


    Like FoTi, I am puzzled by this post

    Do you think it improper my asking why you are here on esmb? You have never given the impression of being an "ex"
  5. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Who cares if it's a word when it's the truth?

    Hey1 Hey! Hey!

    GO CELTS!!!

    I'm big with Sox and Pats and have been since 1962

    I was big with Celts and Bruins when I was a kid - the Celts always won and averaged about 8,000 per game; the Bruins owned sixth place in a six team league and sold out all 13,909 seats every game - but I fell away. However, my name is
    "Bird" and, yes I do think the French Lick connection is something more Cosmic than mere coincidence particularly as he was contemporary of Magic and Dr J but that's a long strange story...

    But yes...

    I did poke my nose in on the Bruins in the wake of the Marathon bombing and that was a very "in the pudding" experience you had being all vastly ARCXen with both sides over the labor dispute which canceled nearly half the season.

    I do believe given the exquisite timing of your return just as my own cosmodweezling was opening a stunning and never before seen blossom that you and I had metagears engaged up in that transcendent charismatic psychedelic realm referred to in the nomenclature of scientologese as "OT"...


    Now that you have been glazed in maple...

    Returning to your litany of decades...

    Which you characterize as an endless "crime wave"


    It matters not how straight the gate
    How charged with punishment the scroll
    I am the master of my fate
    I am the captain of my soul

    Hubbard was always something of a rogue and an outlaw

    What a couple minor scrapes with the law in the forties?

    This is less than a crime wave. Of course the dabbling in the occult with Crowley disciple Parsons an be thought controversatial. Would have gotten him burned at the stake in Europe for several centuries; maybe even hanged in Salem in the 1600's

    In the Fifties Reg Sharpe acquired St Hill Manor and offered it to the church. Hubbard moved his flag citing UK's superior lines of communication to the world. The wags of the day put forth the endlessly repeated FABRICATION Ron was running from the IRS. If the IRS has a case against someone they prosecute. If they don't have a case against someone they don't prosecute. They never initiated any prosecuion.

    When he leaves St Hill it was a long process to get the "Sea Project" going. Again the wags start yapping about flight to avoid prosecution and again THERE IS NO PROSECUTION. And flight to avoid prosecution is not done at such a leisurely pace.

    At the end of his life...

    As I have mentioned I have been disinclined to give credence to the "Hubbard threw MSH under a bus" charge but...

    I just came across a quote from Ken Uhrquart who speaks of Ron's abandonment of Mary Sue as the one thing about Ron he finds hard to forgive.

    I defer to Ken.

    But I recommend all you YAPPING DOGS CHASING A FIRE ENGINE ON THE WAY TO A FIRE that you defer to Ken's understanding compassion tolerance and forgiveness in other matters

    This deference to Mr. Urquarht's assessment does not change The Verdict

    All charges are dismissed
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  6. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    What I was saying there was that you had a great example of how scientology can be defined by the delusions it creates. All you have to do is look past yourself to see it.
  7. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Here's your most truthful post ever on ESMB. You should make it your signature. :whistling:
  8. This is NOT OK !!!!

    This is NOT OK !!!! Gold Meritorious Patron

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  9. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron


    No way is his war record despicable.

    It's "undistinguished"

    And you're stretching out his minor contretemps

    While ignoring EVERYTHING else about the man...
  10. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Here's one of my favorite stories of Hubbard in the military: (from Wikipedia)

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  11. This is NOT OK !!!!

    This is NOT OK !!!! Gold Meritorious Patron

    OK, I'll allow "undistinguished" as a one-word summary of his service. But it DOES NOT summarize his non-stop GRIFTING of the Veterans Administration, nor his STOLEN VALOR.

    I think, that as a veteran yourself, you should be OUTRAGED at that bum!
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  12. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron


    We're all well familiar that peccadillo Pitsy

    He faced a Board of Inquiry and suffered some penalty.

    End of cycle.

    But what stretch of the imagination does this have any bearing on his subsequent work.

    That his subsequent work is itself checkered does remain significant but the very fact that we dig down into such minor points in a man's life as the Mexican firing exercise is a measure of the significance of the man.
  13. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    On "grifting of the V.A." the charge is dismissed for lack of ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER in support of it.

    As to lying about his war record, that is a lame thing to do but far from uncommon. We will always have some hard asses who's eyes will fill with fire at those who lay claim to the sort of valor displayed by buddies they loved who did not return and we all respect such flames nor shall we speak against them. But most of us vets don't much mind tall tales by vets. They're our buddies. They showed up. They served. We're gonna show up next time and most of those horses asses are going to show up too. Hubbard's war IS distinguished in one way. He showed up before Pearl Harbor and didn't walk away when he was at first turned down. It is also my understanding the physical profile which got him turned down at first kept him off the front lines and that he did in fact repeatedly attempt to get a combat assignment. Moreover, in one of the notes to himself in "The Admissions" he tells himself he doesn't need to lie about his war record. It is the Christian paradigm and UNIVERSAL WISDOM to grant forgiveness and absolution to those who recognize their own fault and turn toward it's correction
  14. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    I posted the story of Hubbard attacking an ally because I thought it humorous, but the issue of stolen valor that This is Not OK mentioned is much more significant IMO and speaks to his character. Given your position as Hubbard's apologist, I'm sure you'll do your best to spin it in a way beneficial to him, but it's not a minor point.
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  15. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    He couldn't walk away he was shot in the back while single handedly saving the country from the Japanese.
    If you really want to be honest why not just say, "Yes hubbard did a lot of despicable things but all of that is ok because look how great I turned out!"
  16. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    CP...I'm just what way does your own life reflect what LRH did for you personally?

    Are you, or is your current life an example of what the LRH tech can do for an individual?

    My third question is.....because you keep talking about LRH's life's work being so fantastic......what do you think LRH achieved with his life's work outside of conning a lot of people out of their money (so he could be a millionaire), creating a slave force to do his bidding and making his name a household word?
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  17. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron


    I dunno maybe you aren't spinning the Mexican episode.

    Elron does appear at times to be enough of a bigot that maybe he did attack an ally deliberately firing on a Mexican island because he was pissed about "wetbacks"

    However, as the incident is recorded as an error in navigation, Pitsy characterizing it as "an attack on ally" is thought to be spin

    Lying about one's war record is something which speaks not well of someone's character. In fact, for the most part those who did show valor don't boast of it. My stepfather landed on Okinawa in the third wave in a reinforced company of 250 Marines. 70 of them still stood for muster three months later when he earned his Purple Heart on the day the island was declared secure. I managed to get him to speak of the war more than he ever said to his own children. When he spoke of valor he spoke of a great respect for the valor of the Japanese troops he faced.

    But it's a common crime, I've got friends guilty of it and I'm tolerant, compassionate forgiving sort of person

    Particularly when a person recognizes and renounces bad conduct

    Which Hubbard did in "The Admissions".
  18. Churchill

    Churchill Gold Meritorious Patron

    As a Veteran, you can ask for help, and receive some.
    You cling so tightly to Hubbard that you cannot see all that he, and Scientology, have taken from you.

    It's over, though.
    Scientology is dying, much as Hubbard did; screaming in terror at invisible, non-existent body thetans.
    You made a mistake and were swept into his Utopian Superman delusion.
    You have the choice. I hope you choose sanity.
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  19. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron


    In my current phase of life I'm slipping into ill health and the decrepitude of age. I am entirely confident I could be doing this even if I had never heard of LRH.

    I do have some pretty nifty memories of things the tech did for me and even more what I did for others

    Second question...

    My current life is a good example of what over fifty years of smoking cigarrettes can do to your lungs especially when combined bad dental care, overindulgence in maryjane well seasoned with occaisional use LSD, crack and speed and frosted with obesity

    The "fantastic" aspect of LRH's work; Helatrobus, Markab etc. is problematic (to say the least).

    I did NOT see people being conned out of money when I was in. Both the org in SF and the one in DC sold and delivered auditing and auditor training with a $$$ guarantee that was honored. I actively dislike Sea Org conditions but it's servants are there of their own volition and, as is clearly evidenced by so many who have left they can stay or leave by their own volition and


    What he did accomplish, in short, is in the passage from my book you quoted
  20. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    I don't cling to Hubbard.

    I was active in Scientology three years when I left I was much stronger, more able and more competent than when I began and I had tools which have enabled me to do some wondrous things for many people most especially what I was able to do for my lifelong best friend as he died.

    What do you claim Scientology has taken from me?