The Verdict

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Clay Pigeon, May 1, 2018.

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  1. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Hubbard's use of stolen valor was extreme, and I'm unaware of any instances when he publicly either renounced the bad conduct or corrected any of the misrepresentations. Please link to any instances where he did.
  2. Little David

    Little David Gold Meritorious Patron

    Tommy Davis, my hero, has already resolved this whole debate:

    At the meeting, Davis and I also discussed Hubbard’s war record. His voice filling with emotion, he said that, if it was true that Hubbard had not been injured, then “the injuries that he handled by the use of Dianetics procedures were never handled, because they were injuries that never existed; therefore, Dianetics is based on a lie; therefore, Scientology is based on a lie.”
  3. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    I must say you are a bit of a master at not answering questions and one of the best deniers of truth that I think I have ever seen. :roflmao:

    You gave an answer, but, your answers don't really relate to the questions I asked. In other words you shmoozed your way out of answering the questions.

    Let's try this again, okay?

    CP...I'm just curious......

    1. in what way does your own life reflect what LRH did for you personally? Just saying you have some memories doesn't say what he did for you.

    2. Are you, or is your current life an example of what the LRH tech can do for an individual? If you think his tech is so terrific, why has your life ended up in such a mess? I don't think you could get much further down than you are today. Keep in mind that there are a lot of people that are older that made something of their life and even though they are retired, they still have a decent place to live and an income, even though it may not be large, and they haven't trashed their lives and their health and ended up living on the street and they never heard of LRH. There are many people who's lives were trashed and some even committed suicide as a result of being involved in LRH's technology....but you seem to be blind to that fact.

    3. My third question is.....because you keep talking about LRH's life's work being so fantastic......what do you think LRH achieved with his life's work outside of conning a lot of people out of their money (so he could be a millionaire), creating a slave force to do his bidding and making his name a household word? Please be specific in what you think LRH achieved with his life's work.

    In your book you say "Moreover he is incontestably the most famous philosopher of the twentieth century and arguably the recent century's most influentual." This may be true in your mind.....whatever is true for you is true for you. I say....this is bull and nonsense.

    You also say, in your book..."His body of work, incongruously couched in the context of the wildest most bizarre cosmology ever conceived by man, clarifies, refines and expands mankind's knowledge and understanding of the mind and spirit and he produced and promulgated techniques based thereon known to improve mental function, spiritual awareness and to increase ability and weltanschauung and to reduce distress and disability particularly when resulting from physical and/or psychological trauma."

    Well...what about the negative side...what about the damage it's done to so many aren't willing to look at that, are you? What you write in your book looks to me like you are trying to lead the lambs to slaughter, not telling them of the pitfalls that they might encounter if they get involved in LRH tech. LRH didn't have all the answers and what he did put out to others he didn't originate....he stole and copied from others.....instead of worshiping the guy, look at the facts, man. Yes, some people got some benefit from being in Scientology for a while, back in the early days, but so many crashed and burned on the way. Look at the devastation he left in his path.

    One lesson you might learn from LRH is to "observe" and you're not demonstrating that you are doing that. All you do is try to make it look like his tech is so all fired fantastic and it isn't. He didn't have all the answers and sometimes his answers got people in trouble and wrecked their lives and their families lives. And as far as Dianetics goes, that wasn't his idea....he just picked it up from someone else and wrote a book about it and added his own garbage into the book....and he didn't give credit to where he got it from. This is the honey that he used to attract the flies. He wanted people to think that he was "source" so they would worship him and think that he was some genius.

    He liked to fool people and he used that to make a lot of money for himself, while those who worked for him always did without, even to this day. And he did enslave people, mentally, getting them to believe certain things so that they would stay around and work for him and by feeding them nonsense about how their lives would crash if they left Scientology. This kept people trapped in a belief that he put forward to entrap them as his slaves. This was his postulate...this is what his life's work was about...tricks so that everything would be for him, and everyone else in his life would do without so that he could have it all.

    "Mental slavery is a state of mind where discerning between liberation and enslavement is twisted. Where one becomes trapped by misinformation about self and the world.Jan 3, 2017"

    He lied to people to get them into Scientology and to keep them there so that he could make money and become famous.

    WAKE UP CLAY!!!!!!
    And how about answering my questions? :scratch:
  4. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Starting with the lead-in...

    Could you give me some specifics concerning an allegation I am a denier of truth?

    I am very fond of truth.

    I do not now and have never been a worshiper of LRH. I think he was a randy old goat with many flaws. His motivation may have been ENTIRELY venal but I don't think so.


    he did things such as attempt to use exteriorization to win at POKER?!?!?

    and then he wonders why he's having difficulties exteriorizing..

    That fellow came up short on following his own best advice

    Now let me see if I can satisfy your curiosity (though I'd probably face better odds if I tried to use exteriorization to win at poker)

    1.Well gee sweetheart, you should certainly realize I could write a book in answer to the question. And I didn't just say I have some memories, I'm speaking of many things which I have essayed on this board. I'll give you two for the moment:

    In 1980 when my mate was pregnant with our third son her old boyfriend reappeared and soon thereafter I was railroaded into a psychiatric facility and subjected coerced drugging and "behavioral engineering" at the direction of a German shrink who had grown up in Adolph's Third Reich and told of escaping from Berlin "through fields of corpses". my third son was born while I was thus incarcerated w/o warrant and two days later she called it quits on me over the telephone. JAY-ZISS! I forgive her. She pushed me under the bus pretty bad but we didn't have much bread or immediate prospects for getting any. The old boyfriend was certainly sincere and had the wherewithal to provide a middle class "normal" life which I did not want to live preferring the artist/bohemian/mystic path...

    yeah, i do...

    I forgive her.

    But I got mangled and mutilated and I was in pretty damn bad condition when I managed to weasel out of the shrink shop. That was in Philly. I headed up to Massachusetts. I managed to get my cab job back eventually but when I got my driver's liscence the flash when they took my picture knocked me briefly unconscious. But I hooked up with old friend Bobby Ford a brilliant fellow who ran a mission in Cambridge. He 2WC'd me and the result was the psychological equivalent of having five major dislocated joints snapped back into place.

    Just a simple 2WC between two auditors BUT THAT WAS FUCKING HUGE!!! ain't no one gonna make me deny BRILLIANCE AND ENORMOUS VALUE to the work of L. Ron Hubbard and his colleagues.

    I'll continue with my response to question one in my next post
  5. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    In 2005 in late December in Boston I just spontaneously took off flying to San Francisco to pick up a car being tended by a friend and headed up to Seattle to visit my lifelong friend Billy Martin. I arrived about nine one evening and found the house dark and so napped in my car until his wife showed up. "Billy has cancer" she said. I don't have a phone and she told me she had sent me a note.

    As Ron points out "OT" is like a round ball bearing which can just roll to where he or she can do the most good

    She told me he was in the hospital and he'd be out the next day. She also said he seemed delirious and his speech was often non sequitur. He was brought home as advertised; pretty whacked out.

    Five minutes.

    That's all it took FoTi, five minutes of 2WC and he was back in present time cogent and sequitur and remained so until the day he died.

    His wife, his son (then graduating from UW with honors) his sister coming from Brookline and I gave him 24/7 TLC for the last weeks of his life.

    One day I was assigned to tend him through the night so after we got him back in bed about 2:30 PM after he crapped in his portapotty I slept on the couch beside him until about 11:30 PM. When I awoke he was moaning he'd had pain in his back ever since he crapped. I did a body comm process on him until he said "the pain is gone". He usually woke up five or six times but he only woke up twice that night.

    The next day after lunch he was napping and I was sitting in a chair beside him when the most profound serenity I have ever experienced came over me. Suffice it to say it was indescribable. I wondered if it wasn't my friend's last moments and if I were in the presence of an angel come to guide him home to glory. I was certain what I experienced had something to do with my buddy and as soon as he opened his eyes I said "What were you dreaming?" With a sort of dazed/beatific look on his face he said "...I this room...I was in...every corner of this room..."

    And for the rest of the day he was in the most gentle warm charming good spirits that I'd ever seen him in in all the 35 years i had known him

    And I just could not have done for my dying friend what I did w/o auditor training
  6. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron


    FoTi you appear to vastly disrespect memories

    Yes my friend is now but memory, but thank god in heaven I had such a friend. With my cataclysmic divorce in 1980 he was really the only significant asset of my first 30 years which remained; all else was so bound and deeply woven into the warp and weft of home and family as to be shredded in The Philadelphia Chainsaw Massacre.

    And my study of auditing gave me the ability to do something wondrous for him just in being able to show up w/o material summons to say nothing of what I was able to do once I appeared

    If you or any reader is going to block this out then it's pearls before SWINE!!!

    How can any decent person - and I've always thought you give an impression of being a decent person - be unmoved by the given account; to I write that poorly? Can you not hear a friend's heartfelt joy at making a grand difference in a friend's last days?

    And I could not have done what I have done w/o my study of Hubbard's work.

    On to question 2...
  7. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    Thank you gave specifics and answered my first question. Much appreciated.

    I understand now why you are so grateful for what you acquired while you were in Scientology that you credit LRH for.
  8. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron



  9. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Time to start chewing on question 2...


    To begin with...

    No. I don't think CoS wants to dress me for the spotlight for one of their dog and pony shows. And I be damned if I'd show up for it they were.

    So muck for the first question mark...

    Turning to the second...

    It contains a false premise.

    Why should my life be deemed a mess merely because I own nothing?

    How much did Jesus of Nazareth, Mother Theresa. Francis of Assisi, Gautama Siddhartha, Mohandas Gandhi or untold numbers of saints artists lovers poets own?

    I have in fact lived a remarkably creative and productive life.

    I'm very grateful to you for accepting my account of ...

    I write truthfully and you have a basic material trust that if it were required three witnesses could verify the material facts of those weeks.

    And you are of course expressing a warmly and gratefully received personal respect in accepting an account of a moment of exquisite and profound spiritual epiphany as true.

    As you know many readers here are materialists

    And yet...

    I have given the account four or five times. Once as Commander Birdsong I even managed to post four photographs.

    As much as so many are quick to dispute so much of my testimony even my harshest critics, god bless 'em never try to step on this one

    And that's why I can easily claim to respect and love those with whom I fiercely contend

    to be continued
  10. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    Thank you for answering another question.

    I am glad you say you have had a creative and productive life.

    Are you happy with your life as it is now?

    Yes, we do differ in how we view things. I would consider my life in a mess if I had to live on the street. I like to have a bed to sleep in, a kitchen to cook in, a bathroom to bathe in, a roof over my head and a lock on the front door. I also enjoy the luxury of heat in the winter and air conditioning in the summer....and enough money to pay for the things that I need to keep my life going. These things make my life seem better.....more comfortable....more organized .......better survival from my viewpoint.

    I have never seen the four or five accounts that you gave as Commander Birdsong, nor have I seen the photographs.
  11. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    I was happy with my life from 1976 to 1980 when I lived with a strong good (somewhat episodically abusive) woman and our Bright brilliant beautiful sons FoTi

    I have not seen them since though I have continually tried to break the blockade.

    My extraordinary first born son was dead four years before anyone would even tell me and I have cried myself to sleep many hundreds of nights. If I have times when I work so hard I go straight to sleep when I rest; have activity so intense it commands my full present time attention I can be free of the torment of separation for a while but usually it is ever present and often it comes over me in debilitating waves of berserk bizarre torment...

    "Pity the man who loved not wisely but to well..." sayeth The Bard.

    'Tis so...

    But also I am capable of experience great pleasure well earned for doing things which are blessings for others and can get pleasure from achievements particularly as an artist - doubt I'll ever be credited for it but I am the creator of an art form; Modern American Performance Poetry

    My marriage ended with a pyschiatric snuff job at the direction of a German shrink who grew up in Hitler's Third Reich and I was incarcerated w/o warrant subject to coerced drugging and "behavioral engineering" two days after the birth of our third son when his mother ended our tryst over the phone and was working on getting together with the old boyfriend she married


    My home was destroyed, I lost my sons to a man who hates my guts, hates hippies, hates scientology (and probably hates kikes and niggers) was stripped of all possessions, crippled by the fuckin' shrinks and stigmatized with psych history; turned into an Unperson just like Winston Smith in 1984...

    So it's been tough but that's par for the course and I might howl bout it but I ain't gonna whine

    Churchill said "You have enemies? Good for you, That means you stand for something."


    So... I've probably spent less than ten percent of my nights under a roof since 1980. But I've usually had a vehicle to live in.

    Just now my last car was stolen two years ago and I am now plagued by age and failing health.


    The book I have on Amazon DESERVES to be a runaway bestseller. The Amendment it proposes DESERVES to make it to the floor of Congress and it might be adopted...

    So this strange wild life I've lived MIGHT have a strong finish
  12. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    Sorry for all the trouble you've had, Clay. I hope things get better for you.

    Do you know what the steps are to getting an Amendment to the floor of Congress?
  13. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Get better?

    Sweetheart I'm dyin'

    I'm 68 and a half years old and I'd say it's maybe 50-50 chance I get my scripturally ordained "three score plus ten".


    The book sells...

    Maybe I can stretch it out a handful of years but most of the people I've ever been close to are already on the other side so if my corpse gets scraped off the pavement before the sun goes down weep but for yourselves; I ain't headed for no implant station; I'm goin' to party with Billy and Vernon and River Raven and Pablo and...

    Probably the mother of my sons.

    Xmas Eve as I slept she came to me and not as in a dream for countless dreams of her I have had and all of them were nightmares...


    Not this Xmas Eve...

    She was with me in...

    What we many who have known it know as Divine Light; pure light and pure transcendent love as often described in the stories of NDE's...

    And it was briefly sweet to be in her unique presence swathed in the sweet love I so long ago knew and she said softly and gently "I just wanted to say goodbye to you"

    And that FoTi is classically a sort of experience many have reported when someone they love dies at some distance and I hope I'm wrong 'cause I've always wanted to see her again but perhaps soon I'll find out

    And as to the trouble I've had; like I said...

  14. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Got the first Q

    And I've started on the second...

    But jumping down to the unnumbered fourth...

    "What about the negative?" and you accuse me of ignoring it

    Sweetheart, please...

    I'm here on ESMB and I'm a voracious reader of the negative and deeply concerned about it

    But the negative comes usually from some vicious and/or misguided jackass in CoS. And while they may be actually applying some policy it's the wrong policy. It is bitterly ironic but the most dedicated practitioners of the "SP tech" are people who use it to suppress in most unjust fashion

    And I'm someone thus injured myself as my former brother-in-law Greg Wilhere blocked my path when I was desperately trying to break the blockade and get to my son Ian who was then ill with leukemia, which I did not know as a person but "a being always knows" and on a soul level I did know; in fact I knew before the disease was first diagnosed and split SF to find him just as an "OT" who is like a round ball bearing naturally rolling to where he can do the most good

    And if you will allow yourself to fully grasp this highly condensed looooooooong story...

    It illustrates not only what is tragically wrong Scientology AND!

    What is gloriously right about Scientology

    I DON'T ignore the negative


    If anyone wants to do something about the negative it is not done correctly w/o a profound regard for the virtue of the work
  15. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    You mean like that guy who wrote the policies on Fair Game, Disconnection, R2-45, and was responsible for fraudulent marketing, promising things he couldn't deliver?

    THAT vicious misguided jackass?
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  16. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    When I was in orgs marketed training and auditing which they delivered

    And, as I have attested "OT" awareness and causative ability are personal experiences and I would doubt that my own experience is the greatest ever achieved so what there is for upper limits I coulgn't say. I do know from personal experience there is more to "OT" than you are willing to acknowledge.

    Fair Game is Foul and Disconnection problematic to say the least.

    R2-45 was originally a humorous entry in COHA later bandied in somewhat sinister fashion

    Oddly enough...
  17. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    I am a Christian and lawfully ordained member of clergy. I find confession and repentance of the transgression in "The Admissions".

    Good enough for me. Private confession is entirely adequate. There can scarcely be any requirement for public confession to a vicious angry mob intent on destroying both the confessor and his work

    But you are certainly true to your role as Devil's Advocate Pitsy

    Rock on bro' !
  18. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Marketing training and auditing and then delivering it is still fraudulent in nature if the abilities promised are not delivered.

    Same as the marketing of Lamborghinis while delivering Chevy's would be fraudulent.

    Scientologists paid for Lamborghinis but received a Chevy (at best).

    With regards to OT awareness and causative ability it is NOT just a "personal experience" as you mischaracterized it. OT is not defined as being Cause just on the First Dynamic.
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  19. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Look in the mirror to see the Devil's Advocate. :duh:
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  20. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    "Promise her anything but give her Arpege"

    I was only promised the training

    The training was delivered

    I was and am more than satisfied with the result.

    And YOU!!!

    Have a MAJOR QUESTION awaiting you on the "100 Lies" thread

    Please respond.