Thetan as an Energy Source? Or Not?

Discussion in 'Scientology Technology' started by Dulloldfart, Jun 16, 2007.

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  1. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Actually, in viewing the better version of the above video (it is a very clear picture and good sound) . . .at 5:30 minutes on there is revelation regarding the "gigantic" conspiracy!!!! among 30+ universities to suppress the knowledge acquired as to our true capabilities to spiritually affect our physical environment . . .

    Hell, that even belongs on your other thread, Paul!:biggrin:

    Actually, for me, paying attention to what Bruce Lipton, Tiller and Eysenck have said in the first 10 minutes is quite strong . . . then, what follows in the next 2 hours is demonstrations and the proving of their propositions which I found to be spot on.

    The only thing I would say, is that they as yet do not have the info on what we built this physical universe "out of," nor precisely when and or how or why it was done . . . but, viewing from the position of setting out to unsettle the current dogma of the physical sciences, as they are attempting (and succeeding) to do, and putting the proposition that we do have causation and the capability to affect and alter MEST, they present some awesome info.

    These guys are top scientists in their fields.

    R
     
  2. Gizmo

    Gizmo Rabble Rouser

    Some people want to view things through Hubbards writings & his setting of pc or auditor conquering what is broken in mankind - so be it.

    For me, I tend to believe truth to be found by leaving hubbard & all his theories in the sci-fi pile.

    Energy ? Might help to look at everything as energy more than the theory that an individual generates energy for all ( isn't that soooooooooooooo hubbard-ish ego ? )

    One can call "it" a thetan, a spiritual being, an inner being, a soul, or whatever - but it seems sticking with thetan kinds of indicates clinging onto hubbards teachings & one can do that, yet, in doing that in this day & age does one really expect to be taken seriously ? Really now.
     
  3. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Some people change their minds over the years and thought of "thetans" in 2007 but don't now. :)

    Paul
     
  4. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    At AOLA and around the "complex".....after the "Matrix" was in the theaters.....March of 1999......AO was all abuzz about it....and sly smiles from the SO staff......and such.

    It was really a "change" in attitude....that to me was very noticeable.

    Perhaps it was just another of those instances....where the Cult GLOMS onto something happening that is popular in the real world....and tries to take advantage of it.....for their use and furtherance....

    I suspect, that that was the case.....the Cult always does that. There must be some higher up the Command Chain...that decides these things...and either starts a program about it.....or plants a rumor....that starts to circulate on the grape vine...... (more mind fuck....)

    Anyway....all I could take away from what ever "it" was about the movie .... the "Matrix" was the idea of the false world...and perhaps....bodies stored and used as batteries.....

    And of course that reminded me of the "Tin Can" incident.......as told by Hub Tub too......
     
  5. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    My views on this topic now? I'm not sure. :biggrin:

    In my mind I've replaced the intricate Bearden hypotheses with Miles Mathis's simple work on charge (spinning photons) recycling, whereby vast streams of charge are continuously channelled from the sun and other planets via the north and south poles and emitted from the Earth's surface, passing through our bodies and everything else located there.

    Here is the normal, recurring session action (from https://steemit.com/counseling/@yawnguy/the-suds-and-sushi-scales)
    1. Start off calm
    2. Deliberately stir up something heavy to address
    3. Work vigorously to discharge that stirred-up topic using whatever techniques that particular session module includes
    4. End off calm again.
    The "charge" is very visible in the session. The emotions in the topic can be felt, as can the "mass" discharging in the yawns/sighs/shivering etc. Its absence after discharge is very evident too. But where did this charge come from? I don't see how it could be carted around by one throughout life to be selectively unpacked. Yes with the parts commonly called "baggage" that are frequently on display, but not with this deeper stuff.

    Does the being create this mass ex nihilo? Or is the being merely manipulating (unknowingly) this continual charge stream emitted from the Earth?

    The phrase "recreatable potentials of energy" from Hubbard's 1963 Time Track HCOB comes to mind. Just because Hubbard or whoever else wrote that mentioned the idea doesn't mean it is false.

    Paul
     
  6. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Paul, thanks for rekindling this thread. Some very fascinating and good posts on it by some thoughtful folks . . . plus the usual dose of put-down artists:oops:

    As you might recall, my background in all this stuff has been as a researcher into the subject of "performance." Originally, in the early 1950's, in athletic performance.

    Basically, the issue is: can one perform as claimed, can one produce an intended result/outcome.

    In the physical sciences, the realm to which debunkers resort to cite what is "proven," and what is demonstrable is limited to and by our ability to perceive. Hence the debunkers of things spiritual are simply saying they cannot perceive in that realm, or at the spiritual level. And many even invalidate much of simple regular "human perception" . . . that is, regular folks experience and or perceive things and such is debunk as "anecdotal" and "unproven" and all sorts of other denials of what has actually occurred.

    As individuals, guys like you and I and some others here, we are willing to look to what else is there to be aware of, perceive, experience, and then fit into the bigger picture.

    To this end, as I was reading this thread from its beginning, I got to thinking: what was or would be the BASIC dipole creation that would have caused any form of "energy" to flow of discharge from one to the other.

    When I hit it, it totally blew my Zorch! It created a monstrous physical impact on me. And the Joker in the pack is that we are all doing it all the time!! Of course, it is on unwitting automatic.

    It is the action of envisioning/creating/postulating a or the FUTURE AS DISTINCT FROM AND "SEPARATE" TO HERE/NOW.

    As I had noted earlier on the thread, Alan's book "Gods in Disguise" deals with the sequence of earlier domains of spiritual existence (he refers to them as "universes").

    At the beginning of the chain of changes, there was the separating from a Unity (not that we are or were all part of THE original thing, but as individual Beings we did unite for that period of existence). The first change in the sequence from that Unity of Oneness HERE NOW, was the envisioning of FUTURES (both wanted and not wanted). This created the notion of TIME and the capacity for change through time. Subsequent to that, the notion of spatial separation was created.

    I have personally run in session for myself the above noted events. But, of course, much was still to be perceived and understood of the events, and one such point I cognited on this morning as I spotted the actuality and mechanics of the event of the point/fact that the placing of "something" into the future as distinct from and different to that which is here, produces a dipole phenomena which then brings about the flow of energy between the two items.

    And, also, part and parcel of the "energy flow" is that fact that, we as live Beings are DIRECTING OUR SPIRITUAL LIFE-FORCE "ENERGY" ACROSS THAT SPAN OF TIME AND SPACE TO ACTIVATE AND ENLIVEN THAT CREATED FUTURE AND PRESENT.

    Doing a dance through the various science dictionaries I have here, I note the scientific community's definition of what energy actually IS (i.e., what it it composed of, what is the substance of it) is very lacking, to say the least.

    An example is this Google offering:
    Energy, in physics, the capacity for doing work. It may exist in potential, kinetic, thermal, electrical, chemical, nuclear, or other various forms. There are, moreover, heat and work—i.e., energy in the process of transfer from one body to another.

    Nowhere do they address what is energy composed of: what is the stuff of it.

    Personally, I have for a long time been aware of the point that we Spiritual Presences are emitting it and expressing it and exchanging it all the time . . . and it is this Spiritual Life-Force emitted by us all and compounded and formed that is the basis of the variations of the expression of energy we have in the physical universe.

    Rog
     
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  7. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Cosmic Recyclable

    Rog,
    The above text brought me to realize that there is a disorder that could be aptly named OCDD, Obsessive Compulsive Debunker Disorder.
    These are those who cannot have those of differing realities.
    What comes to mind immediately is the knee jerk reaction many have to disavow everything they ever thought in Scientology once they get out as though Hubbard stealing a concept from another source puts a slime coat of cooties upon it and it can never be thought of again for fear of it being some sort of trap door back into the mind fuck of Scientology.
    People often say "I don't buy the very idea of past lives, it's all bunk" as though they're slapping the face of LRH but that's so pointless because he's dead.
    Dead to me in every way but I don't let my experience in his organization propel me into the binary thinking of, yes I believe what Ron said or no I don't believe any of it.
    Now it is entirely possible that there is a strata of humanity who are no more than biological entities that have no past nor future accordingly, only a temporal present.
    But to interject any idea that Hubbard happened to parrot such as a thetan as an energy source tends to trigger a backlash of OCDD's who lash out with sniping invalidation when it's entirely possible, and from what I've seen likely, that there are a vast spectrum of spirits (my preferred terminology) of variable abilities, potentialities and histories.
    And many with very little.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  8. CaliMule

    CaliMule Work Hard and Bray

    Problems, not necessarily, but questions about the knowability of it - yes.

    1. What if you can, but the MEST universe is balance sensitive (a) immensely and (b) near-instantly, thus it DEPLETES the store or energy promptly (nearly but not exactly instantaneously) very nearly adjacent to where it was created to correspond to the amount of energy created out of nothing.


    This, by the way is an inherent part of "vacuum field" theory which delights in "virtual" photons or other particles winking into existence long enough to exchange a force between some particles and then POOFing back out of existence to keep a certain rough balance over a longer span of time in a small area of space. In other words, there is a lot of evidence that MEST energy DOES spring into existence out of "nothing" (vacuum field) but a net balance over a longer span is kept in place by just as miraculously disappearing some quantity of energy locally.

    If you didn't know this "dual miracle" aspect of quantum field theory you might not appreciate the "knowability" aspect of this problem.

    By the way, this kind of argument is how Sir John Eccles or his followers argue that a metaphysical entity, "soul", manages to influence a physical entity called "brain", or more importantly a key specific spot of it Sir John Eccles identified, and yet quantum mechanics is not violated.




    2. Another way the statement "a thetan can create mass or energy" can be true, but either unknowable or hard to detect, is if the fundamental dichotomy between a physical realm and a metaphysical realm does in fact follow schemes in which (a) the metaphysical events control or are superior to physical events, (b) metaphysical events are fundamentally controlled not by formulaic determinism but by the discretion of sentient entities, and (c) those entities in control fundamentally wish to KEEP control via an allowance system. "Theta is superior to MEST" basically cribs notes from the Socrates-Plato-Artistotle ("SPA") line of philosophy, in which events in a metaphysical realm are able to impose or impress themselves upon the physical and are thus in control, but this control is in the realm and hand of the gods. They are not formula driven creatures, and determinisms that apply in the physical realm aren't going to explain what is going on in Plato's cave. How can a mortal influence all this, then? By being "good" and therefore efficacious in appealing to the gods, thus we have Aristotlean emphasis on ethics and being good.

    It is remarkable how much Hubbard simply put his own spin on the SPA philosophers so often - except for the parts about being good. Maybe Mama Hubbard spanked him too hard for raising the cookie jar as a child and he vowed he'd show her - he'd run right out into life and play in its traffic and do his moral character an injury and THEN she'll be sorry.

    Anyhoo - perhaps you have a book of blank checks and can write them anyhow you like, but ALSO you're allowance is set by a non-rule-bound creature who will only allow those checks to cash if they are for an authorized purpose and within your allowance. You might be able to do all you like but it will almost or exactly instantly be counteracted by Powers-That-Be.

    There is a lot of evidence, second hand to me, that this is how the universe works aside from fundamental equations of physics and determinism.[/URL]

    =====

    By the way, "charge" as used by Hubbard as in a "charged case" doesn't refer to physical charge. Hubbard simply uses "charge" to express the idea that in the mind there are some tendencies or probabilities that arose because of experiences, and after "blowing" charge there is an adjustment in these probabilities - usually in the direction of decrease of automaticity in response. I recommend using Hubbard's ideas about MENTAL mass, charge, etc., as creating merely analogies to physical events. He never did succeed in demonstrating mental mass or charge, etc., are actually composed of their physical correlates that can be measured by instruments.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  9. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

  10. CaliMule

    CaliMule Work Hard and Bray

    Moray's device essentially follows ideas of Tesla: that abundant power is streaming out of the Sun which can be tapped into because charged particles are streaming past the Earth, and this creates an electrical current that can be tapped into.

    It is not by any stretch of the imagination energy created out of nothing like a thetan is alleged to do. It is energy created out of the transmutation of a variety of hydrogen into a variety of helium a purely physical event that is well understood by modern science.

    The task of harvesting this energy radiating into space from the sun is not trivial though. Tesla's writings on a electrically charged nature of the upper atmosphere indicate he understood the problem. We are hindered in harvesting that energy because we are alive, and we are alive because a molten Earth core keeps a magnetic field interacting with a charged particle field in the upper atmosphere that keeps that energy from destroying us.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  11. CaliMule

    CaliMule Work Hard and Bray

    Hubbard did indulge in disphit quantum mechanics interpretations, perhaps because they are so rife and so easily had in the psuedoscientific circles of science fiction fans and paranormal fans. He contributed a mere drop in the bucket to that supply.

    He never actually demonstrates that mass as meant in modern science is the mass he was talking about with "mental mass" and "mental charge" etc., but does demonstrate that probabilities of mental behavior and perception can be altered through his techniques. This leads to confusion on his part that makes these analogues of physical mass or charge seem relevant when actually they are not consistently defined to exist in the metaphysical "theta" realm he posits.

    He is seldom consistent when he tries his hand at dipshit physics. Consider the "three universe" point of theta theory and ask yourself how a thetan can EVER be controlled by electrical currents or "ribbons" as in the Wall of Fire incident. They can't according to other theories he proposes. He is utterly inconsistent on these points, just as almost everyone who tries to use dipshit physics and psuedoscientific attempts at defining metaphysical events and physical events haphazardly winds up being inconsistent.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  12. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    For the e-meter as a subtopic of this thread:

    Search for:
    "Electrodermal Responses: What Happens in the Brain"

    It has nothing to do with so-called "mental mass" (Scientology terminology)
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019 at 6:47 AM
  13. lotus

    lotus autonomous rebellous

    To answer the question one would first need To define a thetan. I got the certainly that LRH hot it wrong about the spiritual being that ici fusée with either the mind or a sort of infinite identity; one le the reason la that he basically attributed To ils thetan concept many ego mind concepts ( the need le knowledge and the search le poser for exemple as well as the crave for infinite existence)

    That said, le there a part of us that is an infinite life essence le thé spiritual realm, I don't think it creates energy since energy is of the mechanical matters. However, the mind , I think can be the source of many phenomanons .

    To make it simple, I am not quite certain that this spiritual being we are wants to do things..may be it is simply IS, like life IS...

    My belief is that we, human beings, including me, can't conceive accurately the true essence of the spirit', since we approach it with the intellectuel mind in an attempt to conceive it.....the mind is of this mest universe, while the spirit la from another realm even while incarnated.

    The only thing we can succed is to realize what it is not though...when we realize what is our ego mind and identity which needs to define itself...
     
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  14. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Umm, this on RT.com.

    'Poltergeist' wreaks havoc at historic Irish school in spine-chilling CCTV footage (VIDEO, POLL)

    Supernatural forces appear to be at work in an Irish high school, with video footage emerging of unexplained spooky activity after hours in Deerpark CBS.

    Founded in 1828, the school is one of the oldest in county Cork. It makes sense then that it would be haunted as everyone knows the dead like to stalk buildings with a bit of character.

    READ MORE: Poltergeist playgrounds: Six spooky theme parks suspended in time

    In the short video, students’ lockers shake and burst open by themselves in a darkened hallway. Books are flung onto the ground and a ‘caution wet floor’ sign then appears to be kicked across the corridor.



    /
     
  15. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Thanks very much, Rog. I watched that video some days ago, decided it might be genuine but was more likely fake, and thought no more about it at the time.

    But your putting it on this thread ... perhaps the whole psychokinesis phenomenon is based on the same principle of manipulating the ever-present charge field (not personal stress-type charge). I'll have to think about that some more. :)

    Paul
     
  16. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Ya, it is a big subject that one needs to investigate honestly and even then, cross-check, verify, re-verify and be sure to rule out any bias . . .

    On my Forum I have some MD's, two College professors (PhD types), and another, the girl I work most with in our research is an Aussie who ran a PhD program back in Oz.

    My first experience with a poltergeist thingie was down in La Jolla, CA around 1981. The girl I was visiting, a fellow OT who had done NOTs, and her 4 year old son had been having trouble with "something" scaring the kid at night when he was trying to sleep. The mother asked me what could be done??

    I went into the bedroom to have a look and see what could be detected . . . and, in essence, as one can/does on NOTs or S/NOTs, sought to detect, communicate with and handle the spiritual presence that was behind the strife.

    What turned up was an old Indian Medicine Man, Chief type of guy, whose job it had been to protect the Indian burial ground and the spirits interred there that the house had been erected on. It was a prime spot, on a bluff overlooking the Pacific. The old guy actually manifested totally visible though also as a transparent form in the full length mirror of the wardrobe.

    The simple handling turned out to be to acknowledge and honor the Indian elder for his dedication "to duty" and to point out that it was not the child's fault but those who had usurped the site to put the housing development on the sacred ground. Then the old guy and I came to the accord for him to leave the kid alone while he still could do what was needed and proper for him relative to the Native Spirits he was looking after.

    But more in the physical universe, my Aussie buddy and I were working together online over the internet via Zoom. She was on a virtual meter which works via a PC or laptop. And this can be shared live via the "screen share" feature in Zoom such that I could see her meter action live in real time, just as if she was in the room with me.

    We actually are very, very close and are actually able to engage in telepathic communication. On this particular occasion, I was carrying out an unfamiliar assessment, and one of Alan's particularly complex assessment questions I had to chew on the be sure what I was communicating. Hence I read the question to get what it was before voicing to to my buddy.

    But what happened was that when "I got it here," she read on the meter down in Panama before I had a chance to voice the question.

    On seeing the read, I was surprised, but kept my calm to ask: "Did you get that question when I got it before voicing it?"

    "Yes," she replied matter of factly.

    These two events strike me as related and/or similar to the phenomena Peter Fenwick relates regarding experiences that happen when people die. The spiritual Presence can manifest in various ways or produce imagery or energy that is palpable to others.
     
  17. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    This is presentation by Rupert Sheldrake is a winner. Interestingly, he started out as I did, believing we are simply a bunch of atoms and molecules bouncing about in some sort of happy coincidence . . . in my case; feed me more vitamins and train harder and I perform better.

    It took a trip to India while carrying out a research assignment that caused Sheldrake to discover his spiritual presence.

    In this presentation he relates his discoveries regarding the spiritual relationship to the physical and gives a nice presentation of the historical development of knowledge on these matters.

    Hollyhock Life
    Published on Aug 25, 2014
    Many people used to think that belief in God would disappear with the advance of science and reason. But that hasn't happened, and some prominent atheists are now trying to reinvent religion.
    What is going on? Is the universe ultimately conscious or unconscious? And if consciousness pervades all nature, how does it work?
    Maverick biologist Rupert Sheldrake sheds light on this topic and teaches Science and Spiritual Practice at Hollyhock Lifelong Learning centre, Cortes Island, BC, Aug. 5 - 9, 2015. More info: 1.800.933.6339.

    Rediscovering God with Rupert Sheldrake
     
  18. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    So happy to know that you include yourself in the species known as 'human beings' lotus. I love this sentence of yours.
     
  19. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Cosmic Recyclable

    There is a show called "Paranormal Caught on Camera" that is on The Travel HD channel that has a lot of similar clips, some hoaxes and some look very convincing. Check it out if you have the channel.


     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 8:28 PM
  20. lotus

    lotus autonomous rebellous

    Why the fuck did I wrote that :eek:

    Actually I wanted to write that we all can't conceive the true nature of the spirit..all including me...

    Does it deserves another english police ticket? :D

    I have a ton on my desk that are overdue..so pass go for another expensive bottle of Whiskey! Or wait till your next life....

    I have a VSOP St-Remy Whiskey (don't have a clue if quality or not)...Auntie Lotus doesn't drink anymore this strong stuff...but she keeps a bottle for young beautiful men who visit her...to make them strong and their stat straight up and vertical:D

    Whiskey as an energy source ? Or not ?
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 11:08 PM
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