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Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Mimsey Borogrove, Oct 13, 2018.
I don't think it's that simple. Mimsey
here's one answer:
In the 1970s in Los Angeles gang turf was designated by a geographic radius on purely social terms. When Tookie Williams from the west side formed an alliance with Raymond Washington from the east LA they morphed into the Crips gang. The Crips gang became a monicure for subsets within the gang. These groups would aid each other in street fights. The geographic area deemed Crip territory would be patrolled by Crips gang members and couldn't be breached upon by other gangs. With the advent of crack cocaine in LA in the 1980s, gang territory became and is presently devised based on drug turf. That is, high level dealers control an area by enforcers, who are apart of the gang that the dealer claims, as well as low level dealers - who are able to make money under the protection of their supplier and gang within a geographic location which is lucrative solely to those players. Expansion of a set’s turf is usually a sure way of expanding drug distribution, thus extension of lucrative feedback.
The difference between the past and present is the stronger emphasis on drug dealing presently. The value systems have changed.
Although this is an example of LA gangs, it can be applied to many other gangs in different regions. Today, gang turf is primarily related to drugs.
I recommend the documentary, “Crips and Bloods: Made in America”
A gang is an interstitial group, originally formed spontaneously, and then integrated through conflict. It is characterized by the following types of behavior: meeting face to face, milling, movement through space as a unit, conflict, and planning. The result of this collective behavior is the development of tradition, unreflective internal structure, esprit de corps, solidarity, morale, group awareness, and attachment to a local territory" 1. African-American gangs began to emerge in the Los Angeles area during the 1920's, which was in concordance with the large black population in the city. The gangs in existence at this particular time in history were not territorial. On the other hand, they were "loose associations, unorganized, and rarely violent" 2. Moreover, they did not employ monikers, graffiti, or various other gang characteristics to identify themselves. Gangs of the 1920's and 1930's were composed mainly of family members and friends, and they were involved only in very limited criminal actions. In fact, the main purpose of these criminal activities was to transmit a " 'tough guy' image and to provide an easy means of obtaining money" 3.
During the 1920's and 1930's, gangs such as the "Goodlows," "Kelleys," "Magnificents," "Driver Brothers," "Boozies," and the "Bloodgetts" wandered the streets of Los Angeles. All of these gangs committed petty crimes in comparison to gangs today. The "Boozies," for example, consisted of brothers and their friends who engaged in prostitution, theft and forgery. As the 1940's approached, black gangs were beginning to grow in numbers. Gangs including the "Purple Hearts," "31st Street," and "28th Street" emerged in this decade, and their activities were very similar to those of gangs in the 20's and 30's. In addition to theft, prostitution and forgery, gangs of the 1940's were involved in extortion and gambling. "They were very effective in forcing local merchants to pay the gangsters for protection, which amounted to paying the gang not to burn the merchant's store" 4.
The 1950's witnessed the arrival of car "clubs," which included the "Low Riders," "Coasters," "Highwaymen," "Road Devils," "Businessmen," "Gladiators," "Slausons," "Rebel Rousers," "Huns," "Watts Farmers," and the "Blood Alley." These particular gangs were extremely protective of their territory, however, they were not organized very well and did not consist of many members. The activities of the gangs remained the same in relation to previous decades. Any conflicts that did arise between gangs occurred when rival gang members found themselves in an enemy's territory. As was generally the case, each gang would gather it's members together, meet in a deserted lot or park and physically fight to the end. The gang with the most people standing at the conclusion of the fight was declared the winner, and the losers would simply limp home and recover. Weapons, such as chains, knives, and bats, were used occasionally in these rival conflicts. These types of weapons are in stark contrast to the commonly used semi-automatic handguns and AK-47's in today's gang fights.
This is part of a much larger article.
It really is (that simple) Mims.
Whoa! Your post may have inspired a new cover for Time magazine, one even more infamously viral than:
Your frank confession could portend the demise of two omniscient cults, both Scientology and SJW.
Is Knowingness Dead? /
...the fact that gangs murder each other because of money
from selling drugs and the protection of their territory.
You said: "I don't think it's that simple". Then you cut and pasted an article that confirms:
...the fact that gangs murder each other because of money
from selling drugs and the protection of their territory.
Apparently when your own article confirms exactly what I posted, it's very confusing to you?
And that's why it's "not that simple"? LOL
You obviously weren't thinking of the Bling Ring who were into designer hand bags....
The well documented reason gangs kill each other ( "MONEY") was instantly rejected is because it was not politically correct.
Had anyone suggested the reason that black gangs kill each other was "White Racists", that would have received a standing ovation. LOL
No thanks, I'm full. I've already eaten too many of your absurd non-sequiturs today. LOL
Gangs and gang culture are more than a great American tradition, they seem to be an essential manifestation of the combination of diversity and liberty...
I was eagerly awaiting "Gangs of New York" and not disappointed.
In 1832 Philadelphia newspaper accounts mentioned 52 gangs by name
Right on Mims...
Don't know why you got HH nipping at your heels, this is good material
What is this? It's not English that's for sure!
This thread is about Tribalism, so let's inquire:
Mimsey, has anyone in your tribe figured out yet why black/hispanic gangs shoot and murder each other?
All those hundreds of books/articles/videos you keep citing and demanding others study apparently do not contain the answer to that infinitely mysterious and unknowable question. I have a suggestion.
Why don't you ask just one (1) of the 1.4 million gang members in North America? In 5 seconds they can tell you why. It would have been 2 seconds, but there was a 3 second laugh before they could speak the word "money".
Oh wait, I forgot---your research tech forbids looking directly at reality and only allows you to look within "your own universe" in order to locate "feelings" you "feel good about".
This is why you are so bewildered and can't find an answer anywhere. Because you refuse to ask even one (1) person who can easily tell you the answer. If my car had a problem starting, I'd go to a car mechanic and ask them what the problem is. I wouldn't ask you, because you'd probably just avalanche my email box with hundreds of links to the history of automobiles, car auction sites and music videos by "The Cars". LOL
HELPFUL TIP: Try asking someone who knows the answer. Even Dr. Hubbard had enough common sense to recommend that, via full color posters used to promote Scn in the late 60s.
ABANDON YOUR DIFFICULT SEARCH.
THE ANSWERS HAVE BEEN FOUND.
NOTE: Yes, that was the "copy" that was used, although Hubbard inserted a different graphic to depict "The Grim Reaper", cum scythe (couldn't locate the original 24"x36" poster online, but the one above was pretty damn close).
Please, for God's sake, use moar clay!
Mmm. So, HH I thought I'd look further into your contention, and I found an interesting article while I was eating breakfast - it was discussing gang life and the 5 ways homies bid a fond adieu to the life. There were the usual big 3 - jail, shot, drug OD - but the more interesting were the last two: Family and employment.
It seems gang life doesn't pay that well, especially if you have a family to support. That doesn't exactly help your position. I mean, do the Crips issue 401Ks to their members? Are they covered by workers comp? Nahh.
I think there's a lot who join gangs for the life and after a while grow out of it. While there are some in it for the money the crimes pay, the risk is high, the money unstable. Hence my rebuttal - it isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
Oh no, you thought the Bling Ring was a non-sequitur? Ou contraire, mes ami, I thought you, Monsieur film buff extraordinaire, would appreciate the reference to the movie about the real life Bling Ring, who preyed on the homes of Hollywood stars, and get a chuckle - not every gang was it in for the money, especially when there are Jimmy Chooz, Rolexes,Louboutins and all the bling one could want to be had. Interestingly - Paris Hilton, who was actually robbed by the gang, is in the film playing herself getting robbed. Inspired casting.
Merci, au revoir, à plus tard,
Fair enough. But nothing you said in that post had any connection to or bearing on the subject I was discussing. You said you didn't understand why gangs were killing each other. But, you keep referencing and posting unrelated factoids.
Do you still find it a mystery why inner-city gangs are fighting wars and killing each other? You don't believe that the many hundreds of studies that have been done cited the fact that fact that they are all COMPETING FOR THE DRUG MONEY that comes with controlling a block, territory or neighborhood? You are unable to understand that they are shooting/murdering their competitors in order to get their turf and their profits?
Honestly, I confess---I do not understand your non-responsive posts nor your thought process. Maybe I am the only one, but I have no idea what you are talking about.
A) I was in a rush in the morning to get to work.
B) I hadn't thought about the drug connection.
C) some years ago there was a party across the street from my house, and some thugs drove by and shot at the house. As far as I knew, there wasn't any gang affiliation.
D) I have been involved in scientology for some 40 something years, and paid no attention to anything much else than being a parent, working and supporting my family, being on course on the foundation schedule. When in hell did I have any time to pay attention to the news? Study issues?
E) the little interaction with gangs on a personal level I had, I was once robbed, or threatened during the aftermath of the Rodney King beatings. Pretty much zilch otherwise.
So, it was off my radar. I didn't think it could be as simple as money, that it had to be more complicated. While you were correct, and money was a large part of it, it wasn't the only reason. Take initiation killings for instance, aren't those to prove you're macho enough to ride with the homies?
F) I think a lot of rap has romanticized the gang life and could be a reason impressionable teens join gangs.
As I was running out the door, I thought of the Bling Ring, dashed back and posted it, thinking you'd get a laugh out of a gang motivated by designer hand bags, instead of money.
I see. Thanks for the info.
You've just described yourself as the kind of person Hubbard described as living in an ivory tower (and I don't mean the C/S kind). The kind that reads about things they haven't experienced by people who haven't experienced them.
When you then relay the thoughts of someone who wrote a book about something they thought about but never experienced and what you think about their thoughts about what gangs might be thinking, it can get overcomplicated (not to even mention, way off base).
I disagree with this though:
"Then relay the thoughts of someone who wrote a book about something they thought about but never experienced"
Are you trying to suggest Sebastian Junger didn't experience what he wrote about, his feelings as a war correspondent, and his PTSD when returning to the states? Or the 5 ways that one leaves a gang? That was from an interview with some gang members.
I try to find non-bogus references, but hey, I suppose I could join a gang if it will make my posts better.
(I know someone will jump on my non-bogus comment, but I do try. I don't always succeed...)
Currently, I am wondering about the differences and similarities between groups, gangs and tribes. They are not identical. I wonder what the key differences are. For instance, one of the examples in Junger's book was the city that was devastated by an avalanche and how the community forgot it's rich -poor distinctions and came together to each other's aid. Or the drop in crime after 911, or Katrina. What is going on there? Simply a desire to help? Or is it as he says, a deep tribal survival urge that surfaced in a time of physical threat to the groups lives?
Another idea - if a tribe is survival against a threat, but a gang isn't based in that concept, yet both groups can be extremely violent, but you don't much think of that facet in groups, do you? Why?
You say keep it simple, but I think the nuances can make a difference. My wife just showed me a cooking show on making teriyaki chicken. The guest chef was all into the importance of keeping the chicken separated when frying to prevent steaming which would affect the crispy layer, about when to add the grated ginger, so as not to lose the flavor, the differences of the ingredients needed to make the glaze. On and on, all to get away from the bottled teriyaki mono flavor, and have multiple nuanced flavors.
The devil is in the details.
The other thing - about the root cause in gangs being money runs almost 100% against the majority opinion on this board - Hubbard's bridge is a failure to make a one size fits all approach to mental / spiritual growth. How many posts have their been posts exposing the bogus nature of Hubbard's claim, yet suddenly, I am supposed to believe the one size fits all - money is the root cause of gangs?
Which horse are we riding here?