Victim or jackass?

Discussion in 'Tom Cruise/Katie Holmes' started by Awesome Rob, Feb 6, 2017.

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  1. Awesome Rob

    Awesome Rob Patron

    I'm watching Leah Remini's show and I'm fascinated by Mike Rinder. He caused a lot of hardship to a lot of people during his time in the "church" and I think it's great that he's using the show (and his blog) to right some of those wrongs. And from what I read in Leah's book, he justified a lot of his actions saying he was using "policy". It's clear that he was brainwashed, lied to, and abused, for decades. He was clearly a victim, but does that excuse his past actions? I'd love to know what you guys think.

    Which brings me to question #2 - if Mike's a victim, is TC a victim too? From all accounts, TC sounds pretty unhinged - yelling, bizarre behavior, alleged physical brutality, egomania, the whole works. But is he just a victim of the church too, and brainwashed into thinking his behavior is acceptable because he's clearing the planet?
     
  2. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    I think anyone who was involved for any length of time, is a victim. We all did things we wish we hadn't in retrospect. The ones who stay in the longest are the greatest victims, usually.

    Getting out of the cult requires hitting rock bottom, for a lot of people. It did for me. You have to almost not care whether you live or die. Usually, your whole life is at stake. If you're in the SO and have lots of family involvement, this is especially true. You are giving up your whole existence.

    So yes, I believe Mike was a victim of the cult.

    Edit to add: I don't see TC as so much a victim. I just have a harder time feeling sorry for multimillionaires. He has more options than a poor SO member.
     
  3. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAKPQepN3NE
     
  4. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Doesn't "being a victim" depend on viewpoint/consideration? I have never considered myself a victim, although someone else might think "I wasted my life" or something.

    Paul
     
  5. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Goodby Goodluck

    If I get robbed down some dark ally, do I gloat proudly about my decisiveness and tone 40 that was able to self determine my ass down that dark ally in the 1st place?
    Or do I just face up to that I've been fucking robbed?
    This is the cross we bear after leaving a self destructive cult.
    And how much fluffing we require to stay upright...
     
  6. Out/Int

    Out/Int Patron with Honors

    That is the "Scientological Implanted Ego" that is still lingering in the mind of Paul.

    "I have never considered myself a victim" is a Scientological response and answer to the question.

    Admitting you were duped is okay. We were duped, hornswoggled and bamboozled beyond belief.

    I believe Scientologist's hanging on the some of the tech still think that being a victim is low toned.

    We were all victims of Scientology.

    It is a scam. Pure and simple!
     
  7. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation



    I suppose we were all victims (and jack asses) but some of us were more willing than others ... I very much like Paul's attitude (as long as it's genuine which in his case I believe it is) it certainly beats falling in a heap ... but it isn't my attitude, I don't appreciate being conned by someone who looks like a giant toad and if I think about it for too long it makes me feel stupid, so I chose to face up to that as soon as I left and now don't think about it more than I need to.

    I'm just loving the freedom of being able to put it all behind me as I assume Paul and others are doing but in a slightly different way.

     
  8. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    .


    VICTIM or JACKASS?

    PIRATE or BUM?

    OT or DB?




    Jeez, are there any other choices we get? I'd hate to pick any of those in case Dr. Hubbard's research at Target II comes up with any more breakthroughs.
     
  9. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Goodby Goodluck

    Zealot with that fixed glare in their eye or namby pamby panty waist dilettante?
    My shoes burnt rubber on my way out of that head trip!
     
  10. Awesome Rob

    Awesome Rob Patron

    You're absolutely right. I'm an outsider looking in, so I can't begin to imagine what your journey must have been like. All I have are documentaries and books, which are great, but this board has really been instrumental in helping me understand your experiences. I still have a million questions, and the members of this group have been incredibly cool and patient with me, so thanks for that.

    I guess what I'm asking is - can you ultimately forgive the person who wronged you if they apologize enough and try their best to make amends? Mike Rinder orchestrated some pretty scary shit during his Scientology tenure (the brainwashing expert from the last episode of Leah's show told Mike he was "scared shitless" of him for years) and I find it incredibly inspiring that ppl who suffered at his hands seem to have forgiven him.

    I know that Mike was brainwashed, threatened, beaten, separated from his family, etc. But if my family had been instructed to disconnect from me because of Mike Rinder, I don't know if I could sing his praises, or even forgive him, now that he's out.

    Which brings me to Tom Cruise. In a year, if he were to appear on People magazine with the headline "I'M OUT!", and talked about how he was swindled and threatened and was forced to divorce three times and lost contact with his children along the way...what would you think? Would former Scientologists rally around him and support him, or would they be incredibly pissed at the way he dominated the "church" and many of its decisions and was pretty much a cavalier prick for the last 3 decades?
     
  11. This is NOT OK !!!!

    This is NOT OK !!!! Gold Meritorious Patron

    I was a victim AND a jackass!

    I'm having more trouble resolving the jackass part.

    I guess a few hundred grand will do that to you.:duh:
     
  12. Out/Int

    Out/Int Patron with Honors

    Tomato / Toomato? Potato / Potaato?
     
  13. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I just looked it up:

    stop feeling angry or resentful towards (someone) for an offence, flaw, or mistake.​


    Forgiveness doesn't need to include direct communication to the target. I think I had to look it up because of too many melodramatic "I forgive you ___" movie scenes.

    I don't feel bad about anyone or anything from my time in Scientology. But their contrition or whatever has nothing to do with it. Whatever (small) grudges etc dissipated long ago. I learned years ago that harboring bad feelings harmed me, not them, so what's the point?

    (I'm speaking for myself. Other exes' mileage may vary, as they say.)

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
  14. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    My feelings about it are best explained by Paul (below):
    :thumbsup:

    It's funny how those grudges just dissipate over time.

    Also, none of those words: stupid, victim, gullible, etc. seem to quite describe my scn experience anymore, though at one time I called myself all those things. Not that I didn't spend quite a few years doing the facepalm. :duh:

    It's just that I've looked at my scn experience from so many angles that there was a lot more to it than blaming those true believers who got carried away with their authority while they were brainwashed. The whole system was corrupt and came from the deranged mind of a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur who somehow managed to inscribe his delusions on others' brains for the purpose of controlling them and lording over them and personally benefiting from their labor. It was sick beyond sick.

    In life, we are never completely secure. If we ever think we are, we can lose it all in a heartbeat. Eventually, everyone gets sick, everyone dies. The more we chase security, the less free we become. We stop taking risks, we worry about holding onto things or regaining things that may not last anyway.

    Letting go of the past, of anger at individuals and moving on to do what you wish in life and what makes you happy is as free as you get.

    In Scientology, there was security in believing there was someone with the answers and I didn't have to think about it or worry about it anymore. There was security in believing in a single purpose of improving the world without any distraction. Of course that security was false. In the Sea Org, my security was threatened every week, depending on my stats being up or down. So even the security of believing in Hubbard was false from the start. Of course people were undeclared Clear; there was never any security in any action of the bridge helping with anything, no matter how much praise or how many success stories or how outrageous the stated wins.

    The Church of Scientology is still an abusive, criminal organization masquerading as a beneficial church. It is still scamming people, destroying families and ruining lives. Those still in are still trapped, those that are out are free or on their way to becoming free. There is every reason for those who know to spread the word and help the others as much as we can.

    Most people become a whole lot nicer when they leave scientology and the scientology personality. They become a whole lot happier too.

    I think Mike Rinder is a great guy. He's being himself these days and seems genuinely happy and likes who he is. I wish he could have had that for himself instead of the years he had as a fake scientology persona. In a way, it wasn't really him that did those things. Only an exscn can truly understand what I mean by that, too. Mike Rinder was cheated. We all were. So you brush yourself off and get up and move forward so you can live the rest of your life as well as possible and be your genuine, ideal self. :)
     
  15. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Lovely rant.

    Leah said she wished Mike was her dad. A gold
    endorsement in my eyes.
     
  16. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation



    It could also have been a very sweet and subtle way of er, putting him back in his box.

    :whistling:
     
  17. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Excellent commentary by Alex Gibney on TC’s responsibility for role as Scientology’s pitch man:
    _____
    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/scientology-movie-director-disappointed-jon-813415

    7:00 AM PDT 8/6/2015 by Alex Gibney

    ///
    Some may ask, "Why should Jon Stewart or anyone else raise the issue of Cruise’s religion? Isn’t that a private matter?" In this case, no. Through Scientology’s tax exemption, we all subsidize the church's documented cruel and unusual punishments of its adherents and critics. Yet what’s left of the church’s credibility remains because Tom Cruise — the movie star with the hundred-million-dollar smile — is the religion’s most powerful pitch man and recruiting tool. Tom Cruise is not just a believer; he’s essentially part of the church’s power structure.
    He can believe what he wants. But, as one ex-Scientologist told me, it’s not the creed, it’s the deed. The public actions of the religion demand that Cruise be held to account. That’s how change happens.
    ///
    ___________________________________________________
    Side note:

    “Janice Min Will Step Down as Hollywood Reporter’s Top Editor”.

    Hopefully she will transition into another position where she can continue her “Take no prisoners” approach to reporting on Scientology.
    _____
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/06/business/janice-min-hollywood-reporter.html?_r=0

    Ms. Min, a former editor of Us Weekly magazine, took over The Reporter in 2010 at a time when it was dying a slow death, bleeding from repeated layoffs, vanishing advertisers and diminished relevance in a news cycle dominated by cutthroat entertainment blogs. She eviscerated the five-times-a-week publication, remaking it as a glossy, large-format weekly magazine with an expanded focus on the lifestyles of entertainment industry power players and a seemingly endless photography budget.
    Along with the gloss, Ms. Min brought a take-no-prisoners approach to industry news, a big change to a model that had allowed the Hollywood trade publications to merrily exist for nearly a century. Heavily dependent on advertising from studios and networks, publications like The Reporter had long provided fawning coverage to the companies that paid their bills.
     
  18. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    .


    Both, probably.

    Just like the varying reactions (over time) to Rathbun or Rinder.

    How forgiving people were would depend on whether Cruise showed humility and respect to others and didn't try to assert his cosmic altitude. That's why Rinder is liked by so many and Rathbun so few at this point.
     
  19. Irayam

    Irayam Patron with Honors

    :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
    This is so true!
    You are right ITYIWIT.

    Irayam
     
  20. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    Spot on! Especially liked the "assert his cosmic altitude" part LOL :thumbsup:
     

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