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Want My Daughter Back

Mushy

New Member
Hello All,
It has been sometime since I posted here before. I was in the midst of a divorce as I finally told the wife no more money dumping into this stuff. With that she disconnected and we split. My fear then was that she would drag my kids into it. MY son will have nothing to do with it, he is 23. However she has now drug my daughter in, she is 19. My daughter who is living with me, went off to Clearwater being told she could work for seaorg. Well I think I disrupted that enough with phone calls and trying to make contact with her while she was there that she decided not to go into the seaorg. However she is now staying in Clearwater going through the purif again and taking more courses.
Here is my problem. She wants me in the worse way to support her and to learn more about Scientology. She has left me DVD's and books. Every time I try to tell her something that she considers negative she says it's not true. I try to explain that she has to look at both sides of things. I have come to the point were I have to just suck it up and be supportive, or I risk just making things worse and having her disconnect from me. I am sure her mother is already telling her to do this as I am the "negative force".
Any suggestions? Anything that I can present to her that she may listen too about the "bad / other" side of Scientology. I know there are good people in Scientology, who want to do good things, and I do not want to belittle that fact.
I apologize if I have rambled but I am just at a loss. I am open to any and all suggestions and advise.

Thanks
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
Hey, Mushy.

I don't know that my advice will be the right advice. You know your daughter better than you could ever explain her to us here.

However, here are some thoughts for your consideration:

1. She's an adult. She's not living with you anymore. Who's paying for her living expenses down in Clearwater right now? Who's paying for her courses? You? Her mother?

2. You're no longer obligated to support her financially. Most kids her age either go to college or go to work. Why is she different from other kids?

3. At this point in her Scientology career, she REALLY needs to read both sides of the story. What's she afraid of? Why isn't she willing to do the most basic Scientological things -- CONFRONT AND COMMUNICATE?

a. A Piece of Blue Sky (by Jon Atack)
b. Messiah or Madman (by Bent Corydon)
c. Leaving Scientology (by Jefferson Hawkins)
d. Scientology, Hollywood, and the Prison of Belief (Lawrence Wright)
e. Beyond Belief: My Secret Life Inside Scientology and My Harrowing Escape (by Jenna Miscavige Hill)

4. What's her freedom worth? How much money do you have to spend on her? What if you bought copies of the above five books and told her you'd give her $10,000 if she read all five books and then discussed them with you?

Hey -- I'm trying to be creative here.

TG1
 

pollywog

Patron with Honors
Hello All,
It has been sometime since I posted here before. I was in the midst of a divorce as I finally told the wife no more money dumping into this stuff. With that she disconnected and we split. My fear then was that she would drag my kids into it. MY son will have nothing to do with it, he is 23. However she has now drug my daughter in, she is 19. My daughter who is living with me, went off to Clearwater being told she could work for seaorg. Well I think I disrupted that enough with phone calls and trying to make contact with her while she was there that she decided not to go into the seaorg. However she is now staying in Clearwater going through the purif again and taking more courses.
Here is my problem. She wants me in the worse way to support her and to learn more about Scientology. She has left me DVD's and books. Every time I try to tell her something that she considers negative she says it's not true. I try to explain that she has to look at both sides of things. I have come to the point were I have to just suck it up and be supportive, or I risk just making things worse and having her disconnect from me. I am sure her mother is already telling her to do this as I am the "negative force".
Any suggestions? Anything that I can present to her that she may listen too about the "bad / other" side of Scientology. I know there are good people in Scientology, who want to do good things, and I do not want to belittle that fact.
I apologize if I have rambled but I am just at a loss. I am open to any and all suggestions and advise.

Thanks
Jeez, this just breaks my heart. I know not everyone loves anonymous, but Amax over at WWP is a Clearwater anon who might know someone of a like age who could provide some input...

ETA... I can make some contact (or try) if you think it would be helpful.
 

Gib

Crusader
Hello All,
It has been sometime since I posted here before. I was in the midst of a divorce as I finally told the wife no more money dumping into this stuff. With that she disconnected and we split. My fear then was that she would drag my kids into it. MY son will have nothing to do with it, he is 23. However she has now drug my daughter in, she is 19. My daughter who is living with me, went off to Clearwater being told she could work for seaorg. Well I think I disrupted that enough with phone calls and trying to make contact with her while she was there that she decided not to go into the seaorg. However she is now staying in Clearwater going through the purif again and taking more courses.
Here is my problem. She wants me in the worse way to support her and to learn more about Scientology. She has left me DVD's and books. Every time I try to tell her something that she considers negative she says it's not true. I try to explain that she has to look at both sides of things. I have come to the point were I have to just suck it up and be supportive, or I risk just making things worse and having her disconnect from me. I am sure her mother is already telling her to do this as I am the "negative force".
Any suggestions? Anything that I can present to her that she may listen too about the "bad / other" side of Scientology. I know there are good people in Scientology, who want to do good things, and I do not want to belittle that fact.
I apologize if I have rambled but I am just at a loss. I am open to any and all suggestions and advise.

Thanks

There is the newly released Jenna Miscavaige book, however you spell her fuk'in uncle's stupid last name, I'm too lazy to look it up. Anyways, she was born into the the [STRIKE]Sea[/STRIKE] Slave Org and left or escaped.

Anyway to get your daughter to take a look at it, read it. If Jenna's story wasn't true, the church would have sued her, you know what I mean.

Plus all of David fuk everybody over Miscavige's family is out the Slave Org, except his wife who is missing in action, that says something.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
I'd tell her if she even thinks of disconnecting she's out of the will before you can say Jack Robinson. I'd tell her that you are grateful for children like your son who love you unconditionally no matter what you believe, and respect all you have done for them as a parent. I'd tell her you will not support her involvement with any group that has a policy of breaking up families and you refuse to pay one more skinny dime while she is there feeding them all your money while they try and turn her against you and alienate her affection. If there is an alienation of affection law like in North Carolina where you're living, I'd tell her you'll sue if the shit out of them if they dare stick their beak in between you and your daughter. And I'd ask her if she has learned nothing of values all these years that she can support any group that has such an evil policy. I'd ask her what else she supports in the name of her "religion". I'd ask her what the limits are and even if there are any.

I am truly sorry for your situation. I don't know if there's anything that can really be done once they get their hooks into your kid. It is so important to get her out, but she is an adult and there is little you can do.
 

WildKat

Gold Meritorious Patron
This may be a situation of "you're damned if you do and damned if you don't". The fact that she's an adult means you can only try communication, and if that fails, she is going to do what she wants.

I was in my 20's when I got into Scientology and both my parents tried to warn me away. My dad considered deprogramming, but decided against it. My mom told me "they're just after your money" and as I found out decades later.... she was right!

BUT.... there is only so much persuasion you can use on someone who is an adult, no matter how much you love them and want to protect them. I can tell you that I would have disconnected from my parents if they had pressured me too much. Fortunately, they didn't, and I was free to find out for myself. I was fiercely independent and did not want their advice.

So about all you can do is continue to love her and talk to her as much as she will let you, and give her information, without drama, and see if she can decide what is best. If she rejects your help and becomes a "good Scientologist", I would definitely NOT give her money, which will only be used to feed hungry regges. Just tell her you're there for her if she needs your help once she finds out she's in a cult.

Then be ready to be patient. It could take quite some time.
 

Mushy

New Member
Thank you all for you input.

She does still live with me. Her car (is mine), she is on my health insurance and such. She pays for her own college, and has been working and has saved a lot of money. Any money that she uses for this stuff is not coming from me. She knows that. I have thought about taking the hard road of getting angry, taking away the car etc but that will just drive her away and be used against me. Her mom will use it as I said. My only real option is to try to be supportive I think and try to keep from being disconnected. Her mother and the other loonies will find other reasons to turn her against me but why should I give them ammo.

I just want her to take an honest look at both sides. That is all I could ask. Anything I have shown her is "just lies on the internet". I think I will try some of the books that have been recommended and see if I can get her to agree to read them if I read the stuff she wants me to read. If there are nay other things that would hard for her to consider as a "lie" I would appreciate a link or title.

She quite a good job to head over there with her mom. She says she will return to her college classes in the fall. But I honestly don't know if I can believe that at this point.

All I want for my daughter as any father does is for her to be happy, healthy and not be taken advantage of. Both I and her older brother have told her this over and over again....
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Hello All,
It has been sometime since I posted here before. I was in the midst of a divorce as I finally told the wife no more money dumping into this stuff. With that she disconnected and we split. My fear then was that she would drag my kids into it. MY son will have nothing to do with it, he is 23. However she has now drug my daughter in, she is 19. My daughter who is living with me, went off to Clearwater being told she could work for seaorg. Well I think I disrupted that enough with phone calls and trying to make contact with her while she was there that she decided not to go into the seaorg. However she is now staying in Clearwater going through the purif again and taking more courses.
Here is my problem. She wants me in the worse way to support her and to learn more about Scientology. She has left me DVD's and books. Every time I try to tell her something that she considers negative she says it's not true. I try to explain that she has to look at both sides of things. I have come to the point were I have to just suck it up and be supportive, or I risk just making things worse and having her disconnect from me. I am sure her mother is already telling her to do this as I am the "negative force".
Any suggestions? Anything that I can present to her that she may listen too about the "bad / other" side of Scientology. I know there are good people in Scientology, who want to do good things, and I do not want to belittle that fact.
I apologize if I have rambled but I am just at a loss. I am open to any and all suggestions and advise.

Thanks


Mushy

howdy. First of all be prepared for a long haul.

OK - now - lose any idea of presenting her with "other views" on Scientology or Hubbard unless she specifically asks for it. Do not suggest it, don't proffer opinions about it. I am serious. Because if it were as simple as just presenting a couple of books and people would leave Scientology would have disappeared a long long time ago.

The people in Scientology are skilled manipulators of people like your daughter. It does not matter what you say and no matter how right you are - they will turn her around and show her "proof" that you are either ignorant or evil. So do not even tread into that battleground.

If she asks you your opinion just say you don;t think it is for you. Tell her how proud you are of her for being willing to try new things and to look at new ideas.

There is one thing you may need to be adamant about - I do not know if you are well off or what your financial situation may be - but do not, under any circumstances, give her money or anything that can be turned into money. If she asks for money for Scientology tell her that you support her using all her new gifts to earn the money for her services. If you are intending to do anything I would suggest putting the money in a college fund but make sure it can only be used for a state or accredited college. You can even truthfully tell her that with an education she will be in much better shape to earn the money to go up the bridge. Be creative but do not oppose - just avoid giving her money or anything that can be turned into money.

Just be positive about her and neutral about Scientology. Just let her find out things in her own way. Just be her dad and tell her how much you like and admire her. You are not going to win her side of things if you are perceived to be criticizing her choices.

So take a few moments - as I said this is going to be a long haul - just be someone she can feel safe coming to dinner with or visiting. Don't Set yourself as the target.

The chances are that she will figure out - most people do. The odds are on YOUR side.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
I hear your pain.

I fear, however, that your "go along to get along" approach won't encourage her to change the direction of her life.

I wish for her the best.

But I fear her path will be hard.

TG1
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Rent the movie Coraline and have a father-daughter movie night. After you watch it, tell her it was written by a guy who used to be in the SO.

Next time she asks you to read a book, ask her if she has ever met a Clear. Ask if they're really as wonderful as LRH says. Say you want to believe it and that you'd do it if it didn't seem too good to be true. Ask if there are any clinical trials to show that Clears are real and as wonderful as LRH says. Send her to the Org to fetch said clinical trials.

I've had success with both these methods. They can't handle direct confrontation. Manipulate them into agreeing with you and then say something that completely undermines their faith.
 

Gib

Crusader
Mushy

howdy. First of all be prepared for a long haul.

OK - now - lose any idea of presenting her with "other views" on Scientology or Hubbard unless she specifically asks for it. Do not suggest it, don't proffer opinions about it. I am serious. Because if it were as simple as just presenting a couple of books and people would leave Scientology would have disappeared a long long time ago.

The people in Scientology are skilled manipulators of people like your daughter. It does not matter what you say and no matter how right you are - they will turn her around and show her "proof" that you are either ignorant or evil. So do not even tread into that battleground.

If she asks you your opinion just say you don;t think it is for you. Tell her how proud you are of her for being willing to try new things and to look at new ideas.

There is one thing you may need to be adamant about - I do not know if you are well off or what your financial situation may be - but do not, under any circumstances, give her money or anything that can be turned into money. If she asks for money for Scientology tell her that you support her using all her new gifts to earn the money for her services. If you are intending to do anything I would suggest putting the money in a college fund but make sure it can only be used for a state or accredited college. You can even truthfully tell her that with an education she will be in much better shape to earn the money to go up the bridge. Be creative but do not oppose - just avoid giving her money or anything that can be turned into money.

Just be positive about her and neutral about Scientology. Just let her find out things in her own way. Just be her dad and tell her how much you like and admire her. You are not going to win her side of things if you are perceived to be criticizing her choices.

So take a few moments - as I said this is going to be a long haul - just be someone she can feel safe coming to dinner with or visiting. Don't Set yourself as the target.

The chances are that she will figure out - most people do. The odds are on YOUR side.

wisely spoken, I do admit.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
Mushy,

Mick (see his post above) has seen a lot of these situations up front and personal. I am hereby withdrawing my advice in lieu of his.

From what I've read, he's seen many of these situations, especially from the "leaving Scientology" perspective when people finally are ready to leave the Sea Org. I won't tell his story for him, but you can ask him directly.

Again, best wishes,

TG1
 

Jay Pea

Patron with Honors
My husband went through this horrific ordeal years ago with his daughter (and son too.) He produced a movie "The Bridge," which in part addresses the issues of family disconnection. It can be found on youtube, wickipedia, IMDb, xenutv.net, and xenu-directiory.net. The good news is you can get your child back with gobs of patience, networking, and others willing to help. :)
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Mushy

howdy. First of all be prepared for a long haul.

OK - now - lose any idea of presenting her with "other views" on Scientology or Hubbard unless she specifically asks for it. Do not suggest it, don't proffer opinions about it. I am serious. Because if it were as simple as just presenting a couple of books and people would leave Scientology would have disappeared a long long time ago.

The people in Scientology are skilled manipulators of people like your daughter. It does not matter what you say and no matter how right you are - they will turn her around and show her "proof" that you are either ignorant or evil. So do not even tread into that battleground.

If she asks you your opinion just say you don;t think it is for you. Tell her how proud you are of her for being willing to try new things and to look at new ideas.

There is one thing you may need to be adamant about - I do not know if you are well off or what your financial situation may be - but do not, under any circumstances, give her money or anything that can be turned into money. If she asks for money for Scientology tell her that you support her using all her new gifts to earn the money for her services. If you are intending to do anything I would suggest putting the money in a college fund but make sure it can only be used for a state or accredited college. You can even truthfully tell her that with an education she will be in much better shape to earn the money to go up the bridge. Be creative but do not oppose - just avoid giving her money or anything that can be turned into money.

Just be positive about her and neutral about Scientology. Just let her find out things in her own way. Just be her dad and tell her how much you like and admire her. You are not going to win her side of things if you are perceived to be criticizing her choices.

So take a few moments - as I said this is going to be a long haul - just be someone she can feel safe coming to dinner with or visiting. Don't Set yourself as the target.

The chances are that she will figure out - most people do. The odds are on YOUR side.

^^^^^This.....

All of the books suggested early on in this thread are good reads and very educational. The problem is that Scientologists are conditioned very early on to do two things - 1) tune out anything they don't want to hear and 2) assume that everyone who has anything negative to say about Scientology is completely nuts or evil.

First thing - look up TR0 Bullbait on here or on google. Scientologists say some pretty crazy shit to each other in this drill, including calling Scientology a cult, and they have to endure two hours (at least) of this torment without flinching in order to pass.

Second thing - if you want to know about the PTS / SP course that teaches Scientologists how to deal with negative information and people who are negative about Scientology look here - http://www.suppressiveperson.org/sp/pts-sp-lectures - and realize that every single thing is meant to be taken literally. So that stuff about "we'd rather have you dead than incapable" - it's not hyperbole, it's not grandstanding. It's literal.

That said, the best bit of advice I ever got was to always be 1.1 - meaning slippery - whenever you say something critical or negative, leave yourself an exit. "Well, of course you'd never be involved in something like THAT. I kinda figured [newspaper / magazine / TV] was lying when they said all that stuff about [fill in the blank], but I still got worried that there might be some truth to it, and I wanted to make sure it wasn't true because I love you so much!"

Finally, at some point in the immediate future, you will want to ask, in a very slippery way, if there is really such a thing as disconnection. She'll deny it, use my scripted response above. Then tell her that you believe her, and proceed to get her to promise that she will never ever ever disconnect from you. This was Steven Hassan's advice, as he believes that most cult members have too much integrity to go back on a promise like that. I took the advice, and it seemed to work, since the disconnection in my situation never had any staying power. In fact, I've ignored every single message I've received from a cultie telling me we're disconnected, kept in contact as if I never received the message, and have a great relationship to this day with the culties I extracted the promise from.

There have been some other culties that have refused to communicate with me. It's cult tech to always keep initiating communication because LRH said you will eventually get a response. This is why people who have been out for 30-40 years still get mail and phone calls. Always be willing to initiate neutral positive communication with a cultie. There are many who dislike me, never having met me, and the communication in groups becomes bizarre because they will only talk to me through a third person. When I am 2 feet away. I always address the person directly, repeatedly, calmly, politely. They break within a matter of a half hour or so. The hard part is me behaving like we're having a normal conversation until I break them - just know that it can be done and it becomes pretty straightforward to do.

Finally, if she does disconnect, make sure to let her know you will ALWAYS accept a collect call. Get an 800 number if you have the means. And never ever change your phone number until she's out.
 
Listen to Mick.

His is the best advice I can imagine.

I would add one thing.

Somehow give her more responsibility in other parts of her life.

You'll have to be creative about this.

Tell her you need her help around the house or with the family.

If she is in college she will probably soon be told by Scientologist that it is a waste of time.

So expect that soon she may tell you she's dropping out.

But under no circumstances blame Scientology for anything.

Expect the worst but hope for the best.

We're here if you need us.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Sidney18511

Patron with Honors
Take Mick Wenlocks advise but.......at the same time keep calling Flag. Ask to speak to your daughter. Demand to speak to your daughter. Do this everyday. Make it so that the cult will think she is pulling in trouble and they won't WANT HER there. But deny it to your daughter. Tell her your happy she is trying new things but mention "it's a shame the COS seems to still be doing the same things". Maybe she will come to the conclusion that they are a lying cult that lies.
 
Take Mick Wenlocks advise but.......at the same time keep calling Flag. Ask to speak to your daughter. Demand to speak to your daughter. Do this everyday. Make it so that the cult will think she is pulling in trouble and they won't WANT HER there. But deny it to your daughter. Tell her your happy she is trying new things but mention "it's a shame the COS seems to still be doing the same things". Maybe she will come to the conclusion that they are a lying cult that lies.

I would not lie to your daughter.

That will most assuredly come back to bite you in the ass and you will lose her forever.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
''

Hey Mushy

I'm a "never in" so am not really qualified to offer much advice as to how you go about things with this awful situation. I have learned that once a person is significantly involved with the cult, there's not really much that can be done until they come to their senses in their own good time. I guess that means its up to you whether or not to endure the "fair weather good roads" version of what passes for a family relationship in Scientology with those who share differing opinions on the subject. At least with that dynamic you can see your daughter every now and then and, perhaps, show her by example that life outside the cult is more satisfying that within its bounds.

Your story reminds me of the struggle a couple over in England had when their daughter was lured into the cult, then apparently left, only for it to be discovered that she had never really left. Heartbreaking stuff, but you might want to make contact with the couple concerned. They are lovely people and, I am sure, would provide an abundace of valuable advice hard won from their own experience. Here's a thread over on WWP which talks about their situation. If you wanted to make contact with them, you can leave a message there. They will see it, or word will get back pretty smartly. They also have a YouTube account so you could try a private message there as well.

All the best. Stay in touch.

[video=youtube_share;C0GyWsuIgjE]http://youtu.be/C0GyWsuIgjE[/video]​
 
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As one who has been there:

a. Stop feeding her "entheta".

b. Do whatever you can to be a safe "terminal" so she stays in communication. Basically, apply "good roads, good weather".

She knows where you are at. When's she ready to receive your information she will let you know. If she does, start only by giving her specifics on where LRH policy and tech are being violated. A good source for this is the Ron's Friend web site.

Good luck.
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Dear Mushy,

The important thing to remember is that any hostility or opposition shown on your part will be treated as something she has to handle or disconnect from. Once that disconnection practice sets in, it's very difficult to near impossible to reverse it. So my suggestion to you, as I have suggested to others who have come here and asked for assistance with the scientologist loved one, it to be patient and loving without enabling her to continue on. It sounds like you are doing all this already. Just try to do it without worry, without frustration, without feeling compelled to fix her because she is a young woman trying to make her own way in the world to begin with and she will make mistakes as we all have and she will fight to have the right to make those mistakes because that is what young adults do. And if she senses opposition from you she will either try to get your cooperation or she will withdraw from you. And Scientology will make it easy for her to withdraw from you.

I would suggest you look over these illustrated easy to read books ( scientology viewpoints made secular for Narconon) that scientologists and Narconon students are taught early on, which 'help' them deal with others who are opposed to them or scientology.

By reading these, you will get a better understanding of what she is learning, how she is thinking, and how best to work on any issues that relate to your relationship or actions that may contribute to her disconnecting from you. My point is that it is important to educate yourself in her mindset.

The pdfs of the books can be found and downloaded from here
This is terrific. One link! http://offdainnertube.blogspot.com/2010/10/scientologys-narconon-in-legal-trouble.html

But you can read them on the internet separately through these links. I have bolded the ones most important and helpful to understanding her need for your acceptance and her reasoning for who to trust and not trust and why:

Here is where you can find the books in order that she will be studying them, along with some video links. You can find them all here
https://whyweprotest.net/community/...mind-clean-body-dox.96351/page-3#post-2048562

or each by the individual links:

Narconon: Book One
•Narconon Course 1, Therapeutic TR Course
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6nxlq1drI2SYmEyZGVmZWEtOWMyZS00NDZiLWE1ZDktNjE3NTNjMjkzMDM4

•Narconon Course 3, Learning Improvement Course
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6nxlq1drI2SZGUxY2QxYWYtZGQzNC00NzQxLWFlMDMtNmY1YTc1NDVmMDVh

•Narconon Course 4a, Communication & Perception Course
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6nxlq1drI2SMGI1ZDEyODQtZGQzZi00ZjFjLWE1ZjMtMGFiNjk5NzYwOWZk

•Narconon Course 4b, Communication & Perception Course
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6nxlq1drI2SNTcwODU4NTctNGUxZC00MmI5LTk0NWEtZGU2MGNmZTVmYWE5

•Narconon Course 5, Ups & Downs in Life Course
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6nxlq1drI2SMzRhZDU5OWYtYThkMS00YmExLWI5OGQtYTczODdjMTgyYTIy

•Narconon Course 6, Personal Values and Integrity Course
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6nxlq1drI2SMmFiMWE1MjUtYjllNC00M2RjLTliYzUtMjE4NDIxYzRhZmQ1

•Narconon Course 7, Changing Conditions in Life Course
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6nxlq1drI2SMzYyNTlkMzMtOWY0YS00MGUwLTlkODMtZDI0MTMyYjhlMjcy

•Narconon Course 8, The Way to Happiness Course
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6nxlq1drI2SYzU0MTBlNTYtNjFhZC00ODVkLWI2NzUtYzIzYjlkYjM3Njc5
http://forum.reachingforthetippingpoint.net/index.php/topic,9728.msg22269.html#msg22269

I have suggested these booklets be read by those who have loved one's in Scientology's drug program, Narconon, who find themselves cut off, disconnected all of a sudden, as if they are the blame for the person's addiction. You would not believe how often someone tells me " I sent my wife ( or husband ) to rehab at Narconon and she won't talk to me any more' or ' she wants to get divorced!'

These materials helped them. I am hoping they will help, you, too.

Most importantly. keep loving her and pointing out the good in her and let her know that you are there for her because these are the things that have sustained many a relationship in a similar position.

Best wishes,

Mary McConnell
 
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