Wed., January 10, 2018: A Christian Response to Scientology, at Calvary Church, Clearwater, Florida

Discussion in 'Breaking and Major News about Scientology' started by CommunicatorIC, Jan 3, 2018.

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  1. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Patron Meritorious

    "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Pitsy

    I have a lengthy list of violations of my own, though I do think most are petty.

    And dear God in heaven I would think a person of your years and experience would know our Judeochristian scripture has been oft used to uphold the most heinous of crimes
     
  2. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Patron Meritorious

    O it eventually works out well for all of us. this world's one guarantee is no one has to stay here forever.

    No. The current "corporate scientology" is... ?

    And I was never a scibot in the much different and much better CoS of 45 years ago

    Luv ya!!!
     
  3. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Nonsense!

    The true scientology view varied with the direction the wind was blowing. According to Hubbard it was at one time a science, at another a religion and the best auditors were engineers. Many religious ideas are implants, usually implanted by parents and education. Pain drug efforts, electronic trickery are not nessessary and are not so common. If they even exist!

    Who are the psyches now? Its CO$ who endeavors to implant society on how to think let alone its own members.

    The "psyches" whether one likes their methods or not are trying to help. CO$ is trying to become arbiters on what is the law. Hallo Torquamada!

    To take one sentence of Hubbard to define Scn is a
    exercise as futile as taking one persons way of defining christianity, see Torquamada.
     
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  4. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    Christians churches along with many other types, carry the cross for their own sins.

    Not too many of them are as dangerous as the CofS, but I feel they way they often preach is highly disingenuous.
    Catholics are often described as the most evil, mainly because they have such a long history. Judaism carries their own burdens as well. Even today they are similar to the CofS (mainly the Ultra Orthodox) where child abuse is rife and no one is allowed to report it to the authorities and many perpetrators are often protected. Sounds quite familiar. Many of the fundamental Christian faiths carry the same stains with them.

    But Scientology was only ever about making money and enslaving people and minds. Many Christian sects do the same.

    But not all. Some of them will allow you your own thoughts as well, and will encourage healthy debate. I know the Catholics and Anglicans will permit debate and will discuss matters of faith with you in their own way and you get to make your own choices. I guess that's a positive with them. Like anything else though, there will be a line drawn in the sand.

    But as is the way with groups, there is always someone who becomes disillusioned with the leadership and work with their own ambitions and ideals. Then it all becomes competitive and political and so many good things eventually lose their way as they mould everyone to their way of thinking. That's primarily why I don't particularly like working with groups. Sometimes you have to though.

    I cannot though, ever possibly conceive that Scientology was created as a force for good. That is a primary difference.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
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  5. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I'd go further. Anyone who studies anything must
    retain their own philosophical integrity. The process of study,
    as opposed to the process of indoctrination will strengthen
    philosophical integrity, even if there is a change in viewpoint.

    Questioning previous indoctrination is also useful here.
     
  6. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    The current (and past) corporate scientology is self serving. Nothing else is more important to it.
     
  7. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    I go along with that too Terril
     
  8. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Patron Meritorious

    yes. some psyches are of honest intent

    Most are pretty bad Terril

    These are atheist, materialist behaviourists and I and many others I have known have been harmed by them in ways and degree that, with the exception the McPherson girl don't happen in scientologerbil
     
  9. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Patron Meritorious

    Back in the day I knew many people of good will

    And of course most are out now.

    But there was a time when scn and dianetics was in truth a grassroots movement
     
  10. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    I think most causes start out that way Clay.
    Most eventually become corrupted.

    How long have you been out?
    I only ask because scientology has harmed far more that it has helped. Especially since the 70s.
    Then Miscavige happened and took things to a whole new level.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
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  11. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    I was referring to the true scientology view of Christianity. I doubt that Hubbard's views changed so much on that over the years, certainly not after he completed his "research" for the early OT levels.

    Here's Hubbard's view on the origin of Christianity on the planet. Has he said anything since then which contradicted this view?

     
  12. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Anyways, I'm pretty much bored with this subject, probably done for now.

    Anyone who ISN'T bored with it, here's a couple more threads for you: :D

    Can You Be a Christian Scientologist? (Juliette Lewis Says YES in New Interview)
    http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/...yes-in-new-interview.21151/page-5#post-510309

    I AM A CHRISTIAN SCIENTOLOGIST
    http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/i-am-a-christian-scientologist.23919/
     
  13. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Patron Meritorious

    When a Sea Org mission came to fcdc from the Apollo and removed me from post for reasons then unknown and never well clarified placing on Guardian Office lines in early June of '74 my then wife, Greg Wilhere's sister and I walked away from the joint. I didn't at all renounce Scientology and I was in fact a far stronger and more able person than when I started the study. In 1975 I tried straighten out relations with the church and what happened is a long strange story. In 1977 a chance encounter led to a renewal of a friendship from FCDC up in New England and when we moved down to Philly it led to us reconnecting with several former DC staff most particularly Gordon Bell surely one of top one hundred figures in the history Scn. Then in 1980 all HELL broke loose; another long strange story. I was railroaded into a mental hospital as her old boyfriend, who viciously and venomously despises Hubbard and CoS moved on her. She ended the marriage over a telephone two days after our third son was born while I tranqed insensate and being subject to behavioural engineering at the direction of Dr. Kanther, a German shrink who was spawned in Adolph's Third Reich and escaped from Berlin in April 1945 "through fields of corpses" (oddly he was the third person that Spring to speak to me the phrase "fields of corpses", and as chaotic as that time was in it's moments from a detailed examination with a perspective some months removed it was as literature exceeding the works of Shakespeare. Weird.). I decamped to my New England home much as a beaten soldier carried from the field of honor and managed to get in touch with my old friend Bobby Ford who ran the Cambridge Mission for a decade until the mission debacle of '82. He was this Korea vets MASH unit. The psychs are ROTTEN and it was a political lynching that left me debilitated but just some two way comm between a pair of auditor friends and it was the psychological equivalent of having five dislocated joints snapped back into place and I was left sore but healthy.

    After that, I always felt one should either go balls to the wall with Scn or stay out of it's way. In the '80's I would occaisionally stop in on a friend I met as a Dianetic intern who was an oldtimer from the original ARCBA formed in 1950, Jack Spears who was then serving as Chaplain when the org was on McAllister (Crowley) street but at that time I had more friends who were serious students of Crowley's work than Hubbard's. I used to send twenty bucks to FCDC now and then on my freeloader debt. Then in 2004, having received a small legacy I paid off the FCDC debt and had a very intense Chaplain cycle at Xmas with Debbie Clapp which in scientologicatekknospeek "blew a lot of charge" Christ on a bicycle I felt ten years younger. Hubbard's work done right between men and women of good will is one helluva damn good thing

    but...

    in 2007 I came across Killer Bent's "Madman or Messiah?" Christ it wasn't until then that I first heard of Quentin's death (and oddly enough the poor kid was found in his car in a coma on October 28th 1976, the day my son Ian was born) And then I started going to the library and surfing the net about scientology reading several incindiery and credible stories (along with a nasty shitpile of rank huge black antiscientology lies) and in twenty ten stumbled on ESMB and Nozzies fabulous FCDC thread
     
  14. CommunicatorIC

    CommunicatorIC @IndieScieNews on Twitter

    More from Calvary Church, the home of Pastor Willy Rice:

    Why Scientology Cannot Hide Behind Religious Freedom

    https://calvary.us/why-scientology-cannot-hide-behind-religious-freedom/

    * * * * * BEGIN CONCLUSION * * * * *

    Religious liberty should be defended, but critics must be allowed to speak, laws must be followed, and the rights of others protected. The COS hides behind the cloak of religion and seeks the protection of religious liberties. They should be afforded the protections that any citizens and any religious organizations are due, but no more. Religious liberty should protect your God-given freedom of conscience, but not protect your schemes to abuse and harm others.

    * * * * * END CONCLUSION * * * * *
     
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  15. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Patron Meritorious

    Very well composed and intelligently presented with due and proper respect tendered to both the subject and the organization.

    When Hubbard himself was alive and developing his magnum opus he was granted a pass; he was privileged. As much as many things he produced are odd many well positioned people were informed by many honest students there was a baby in the dirty bathwater.

    I know it is not a popular opinion on this board but, given the tidy bundle of practical substance produced by him and within his sphere, I don't feel Hubbard egregiously abused his privilege. Operation PC Freakout appears to be the worst reasonably credible charge against him and Paulette is still among us. I'm not upset by her book but in fact she gave it a title which smacks of "yellow journalism". If Ron's response was, as it appears, cruel and excessive (not mention de jure crime) it does seem it was generally effective in keeping publishers from printing crap. And personally, as I have said, I consider Operation Snow White to be heroic and I am proud to have been on staff at FCDC when it was being run out of the local G.O. You want me to be ruffle my feathers because a bunch of Americans infiltrated the U.S. Gummint? Fahgeddaboudit. I believe Snow White had a crucial influence on the reforms and restraints pressed on the jackbooted thugs of the IRS about year after Meissner opened the curtains. And it happened in DC. The Cia had a mole in the North Vietnamese High Command. Do you want to believe Langley didn't have two or three of the leg men on Snow White in their employ.

    Think, you buzzard's!

    Grab a couple brain cells and rub 'em together!

    But now a bunch of gooks who can't grasp their own better materials are trying to pedal a better man's bicycle and their arse don't fit the saddle.
     
  16. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Patron Meritorious

    This is familiar enough I think I know it from way back and was puzzled b it then.

    Christianity started from a piece of the R6 bank six centuries B.C.????????

    Now I think I know what the old buzzard is talking about,

    Zarathustra

    Or if you prefer Zoroaster.

    Chtistians don't much like having it pointed out the revelation to St John on Patmos is largely a rehash of the Zoroastrian epic of Judgement Day where you get that good/evil, right/wrong End Word paired opposites devolving finally into blessed and damned.

    Not that I know much about R6EW

    Or Zoroaster...
     
  17. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    According to Hubbard, R6 is an implant that was installed 75 million years ago during what was known as Incident II, also known as the "Wall of Fire".
    Beliefs that constitute Christianity and other world religions were implanted into thetans after Xenu transported billions of his citizens to Teegeeack (now known as "Earth"), blew them up in volcanos with hydrogen bombs, then implanted them over a 36 day period.

    Sounds legit. :whistling:

    You can read details of it at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu or go to the nearest Church of Scientology and sign up for OT III.

    According to Hubbard, Christianity is the result of beliefs that were implanted into thetans millions of years ago. That doesn't sound compatible with Christian beliefs if you ask me.
     
  18. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Patron Meritorious

    Nor to me Pitsy.

    However auditing techniques which I can use for he well being of self and others are.

    And...

    This R6 is pertinent. Not the way Ron puts it out but Christians do get hung up in End Words and it's always been that way. Study of Ron's materials can be very useful in freeing christian thought from dyads and dichotomies to the true essence of christian belief and practice centered the twofold command "Love God with all your heart and soul; love your neighbor as you love yourself."

    Ron never in his writings ever seems to connect with this...

    Except...

    In "Science of Survival". America was a far more christian land in 1950 and it is obvious SOS was hugely influenced by Ron's honest (yes Pitsy I know you don't care to see these two words conjoined) 2WC with many people of faith who grasped the secular current away from classical psychology treating man as a soul and modern "man is mud" psychology.
     
  19. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    If you wish to extract the raisins from the pile of turd then you may have found some good tasting raisins, but you can't just pull them out, point to the raisins, and say 'this is Scientology'. Not only do the Scientology "scriptures" forbid you from doing such a thing, you'd be guilty of committing one of the highest crimes possible within Scientology. Seriously.

    You can pull out a technique from Scientology, for example - using a dictionary to get a conceptual understanding of a word, and possibly use that technique to enhance your understanding of Christianity or some other subject. But to characterize this as doing Scientology would be wrong. First of all, utilizing a dictionary in this fashion predated Scientology, and what is referred to as "study tech" wasn't truly created within the CoS or by Hubbard, rather it was Hubbard ripping off those who did create these techniques (the Berner's), and fraudulently taking credit for it without crediting the true source.

    Anyways, Scientology (and its core values) certainly aren't compatible with Christianity, and you're doing a disservice to Christians by promoting that it IS. Scientologists are eventually indoctrinated into believing that Christians have been tricked into believing in a non-existent Messiah (Jesus) and a non-existent God (the Biblical God) by evil psychiatrists from trillions of years ago. But they'll completely lie their asses off to Christians about this if they're attempting to interest them in Scientology. They'll tell them an "acceptable truth". :whistling: This is no more OK than the worst examples of used car salesmen, one who would attempt to sell you a car while they knowingly lie their ass off about the true condition of the car.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  20. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Patron Meritorious

    Well I don't just pick out raisins and say this is scientology

    I'm not authorized to say what scientology is because I'm NOT a scientologist.

    But...

    Most everything on the lower levels is well fit to align with scripture and I believe it works much better if you do
     
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