Featured Well, I'm out now.

Discussion in 'Leaving Scientology' started by Snuffy, Jul 4, 2007.

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  1. Roadrunner

    Roadrunner Banned

    Quite a flawed observation...

    Mick Wenlock interpreted " I do not think, I observe." as "People who know nothing and just observe", and you come to me with your Aspergers.

    But that's your problem not mine...

  2. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Banned

    Your problem is that you have a flawed 'stable datum' that 'Ron is Right' which serves as the stake in the ground that you run around with your 'chain of certainty'.

    That's why you run in circles. Lose the 'stable datum' and you might actually *go* somewhere.

  3. Snuffy

    Snuffy Patron Meritorious

    I plan on posting the disconnection email when I have time because the person who wrote it makes some unwittingly chilling comparisons between Scn and the army, and is totally oblivious to the implications. No time to do it now, but will try to get to it within the next few days.
  4. Roadrunner

    Roadrunner Banned

    Running in circles does he that does not substantiate claims. My dear fellow, that is not me... :eyeroll:

  5. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Well, when I said negativity, I meant things they do that are negative. Which would include lack of empathy. It was a blanket term

    Thing is, there are a lot of people in this world who lack empathy in given situations. They don't have Asperger's, most of them. I mean, that's pretty much the only symptom you have and it just seems to me that since Asperger's is complex, has a number of symptoms, that it's just not the best comparison.

    But then again, I think comparisons are problematic anyway. (Sort of like virtually every half way decent fantasty novel getting compared to Lord of the Rings when, many times, they aren't at all like LOTR. But it's the frame of reference, it's the benchmark, so it gets used.)

    I think there are different sorts and varieties of pronounced lack of empathy and that someone who's behaving that way from being in a cult, from doing the good vs evil self serving thing (as in "Oh, I'm so good and he's so bad") - that these just do not resemble Asperger's.

    It's bad, for sure, but thing is, when you walk into an Org or Mission or SO installation and really get to be around the people there, although you will see some crappy things, you won't see a bunch of Rainman types running around. Or "Rainman-lite" as I like to call Asperger's.

    I think this here might be more a cross section of what you'd see (if you happened to be well entrenched in the scene, like if you were on staff, volunteering, or did a lot of course time and auditing there)

    People laughing
    Trying to help each other
    People screaming at each other
    A lot of very harried busy people
    And you would see some real abuse.

    I've been in ethics handlings, I've been there, and I had some shit happen to me. But there, what I saw was anger and self righteousness- not so much a quasi autistic mien on the part of any of the people.

    I think that whoever explained the belief systems to you had their own slant on it, and wasn't too accurate.

    Of course Scn, philosphy-wise isn't perfect, but just as the philosophy or "belief system", it's not something that encourages lack of empathy. Hubbard wrote a lot about having empathy. Yes, he failed to practice it, but fact remains, the actual ology practiced by many Scn'ists in and out of CofS, isn't like you describe.

    And before anyone start in with "oh she thinks the "tech" is fine, it's just the current management that's misapplying it and she doesn't know, etc." that's not my stance at all. (though people keep telling me it is) There are some gaping holes in Scn. Particularly "policy". I think those are mainly due to an idea that the organization is more important than the people. This idea has found its way into a number of policies.

    But if you take the core and basic ideas of the Scn philosophy and auditing practices empathy is constantly stressed.

    The idea of being that cut off from others as a person, being that poorly socialized, of behaving like a "rainman lite" would appall the Scientologists I know.

    The core beliefs of Scn are that one's decisions and thoughts about one's experiences are what shapes the person and determines his or her life and that those things can be changed and that a person should be aware of them, rather than having them be unconscious in any way. So in auditing one attempts to face up to one's fears, past experiences and so on and confront them.

    Scn also teaches that one is responsible for anything that happens...this would seem radical to many and I'm not trying to discuss the merits or lack of merits in the idea, but here I'm trying to point out that someone who is that concerned about responsibility in all spheres of life- even if he or she doesn't live up to it- is not going to be someone with that disassociation.

    The Grades (auditing steps a ways before the OT levels) address (or attempt to) communication, problems of life, facing up to things one did or failed to do that was immoral or unethical, dealing with past upsets and conflics.

    As I said, I'm not writing this post to persuade anyone of the merits or efficacy of Scn, but I'm pointing out that the goals of Scn, the things it tries to address would point someone in the opposite direction than these symptoms of Asperger's:

    * Not pick up on social cues and lack inborn social skills, such as being able to read others' body language, start or maintain a conversation, and take turns talking.

    * Dislike any changes in routines.

    * Appear to lack empathy.

    * Be unable to recognize subtle differences in speech tone, pitch, and accent that alter the meaning of others’ speech. Thus, the person may not understand a joke or may take a sarcastic comment literally. Likewise, his or her speech may be flat and difficult to understand because it lacks tone, pitch, and accent. Have a formal style of speaking .

    * Avoid eye contact. Have unusual facial expressions or postures. Be preoccupied with only one or few interests, which he or she may be very knowledgeable about.

    * Talk a lot, usually about a favorite subject. One-sided conversations are common. Internal thoughts are often verbalized. Have delayed motor development, etc.[/QUOTE]

    I appreciate your response.
  6. mashugana

    mashugana Patron

    Thanks for taking the time to post back on this - it's good. I hope I don't offend you further. I've asked yet more questions. Would appreciate any replies from anyone.

    I don't think I expressed myself well. I see aspergers as an observation, a description; not wholely possative or negative and absolutely not a derogatory term. I agree it's a complex condition that has degrees to it. It can be subtle. A lot of people with aspergers would not fit into any screamingly obvious catagory. I was refering specifically to lack of empathy , inappropriate indifference but was also refering to Aspergers as a whole and had in mind other traits associated with it ( see Gillgerg's below). I wrongly assumed that anyone replying would have the same broad view/ understanding of aspergers.

    I think a comparison is a useful bench mark/reference point from which to discuss an idea.

    "Rainman lite"?

    I really should have clarified that I was using the term Aspergers in an observation and as a reference point- I don't see it as a derogatory term or simplistic.

    "Quasi autistic?"

    Your account is interesting, thanks for that information and I completely accept what you're saying about your experiences.

    The point I'm making is how people who join scientology are possibly seen by people outside the group. A person may be joining in all of the above experiences that you list within scientology. Outside that group they may have people who love them; who they have emotional, time and financial commitments to that they are unable/unwilling to fulfil because the new group they have joined are taking their time, heart, mind, money. To the people outside scientology they could come across as unempathetic to needs and inappropriately disinterested in them and could be seen to be abandoning responsibilty to them with no display of any conscience.

    I'm trying to put forward an idea (possibly quite unsuccessfully!) about how a person communicates, their apparent thought processes and their obsessiveness about the group they have joined to the exclusion of other things and how that all might come across to a person who is not joining in that group. I accept it would be entirely different to how they are seen by the people within the new reality they have joined.

    Yes, but that would be where it all falls down for me, the point at which I found out that it was all put forward by someone who didn't practice it/ showed no evidence of it working. For me that would be like paying for dental work from a dentist with halitosis and ill fitting dentures.

    In my experience one of the core aspects of scientology is to cut people off from non-scientologists. Even at a basic starter level as paying public there is a huge emphasis on not dabbling, of spending all your free time being on the course, studying scientology. That simple act is physically cutting people off before you even look at the money and headspace it takes.

    That's fair enough. That's basic accepted psychology - around in various forms and accessable via numerous methods.

    It's an aspect of scientology that to non-scientologists can come across as uncompassionate, harsh and unempathetic.

    And I really do need it explaining. Responsible for:

    This is part of scientology I've never quite understood.

    When does being totally responsible for everything start?
    As a child?
    As an adult?
    After one's done enough scientology? How much?
    What about a bit of scaffolding falling on your head, cancer, earthquakes, tornadoes, night, day - are people totally
    responsible for them? How does that work?

    Can anyone explain this to me?

    Thanks for explaining that about the grades. It's interesting. Who judges what is immoral or unethical? Does the individual decide or the church of scientology?

    I appreciate you answering. I think I see your point of view and the goals of scientology as you understand them. I think I understand why you don't agree with my analogy.

    Not sure where that list you quoted is from; - I think it's just a small section of the DSM-IV Diagnostic Criteria for Aspergers Disorder. Gillbergs criteria for the disorder is very similar and is as follows:

    1.Severe impairment in reciprocal social interaction
    (at least two of the following)
    (a) inability to interact with peers
    (b) lack of desire to interact with peers
    (c) lack of appreciation of social cue
    (d) socially and emotionally inappropriate behaviour

    2.All-absorbing narrow interest
    (at least one of the following)
    (a) exclusion of other activities
    (b) repetitive adherence
    (c) more rote than meaning

    3.Imposition of routines and interests
    (at least one of the following)
    (a) on self, in aspects of life
    (b) on others

    4.Speech and language problems
    (at least three of the following)
    (a) delayed development
    (b) superficially perfect expressive language
    (c) formal, pedantic language
    (d) odd prosody, peculiar voice characteristics
    (e) impairment of comprehension including misinterpretations of literal/implied meanings

    5.Non-verbal communication problems
    (at least one of the following)
    (a) limited use of gestures
    (b) clumsy/gauche body language
    (c) limited facial expression
    (d) inappropriate expression
    (e) peculiar, stiff gaze

    6.Motor clumsiness: poor performance on neurodevelopmental examination

    (All six criteria must be met for confirmation of diagnosis.)
  7. Alan Prost

    Alan Prost New Member

    Building the castle was a long process

    Hello to you:
    New to this format, and not in fear of anyone or thing, it is my intention
    to establish ARC with people especialy in England.
    Quite simply, for me, it would be wonderful to sit and talk freely using the
    language of Tech ,as I do naturaly, but am unable to do with those not
    fluent, for currently in this life I stand alone with this knowledge.
  8. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    You stand alone with what knowledge? Tech stuff? Lots of people here who know oodles of tech and can talk the lingo when they want to.
  9. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    Are you tech trained? Cna you give a little history about yourself in that regard? Peace.
  10. PirateAndBum

    PirateAndBum Gold Meritorious Patron

    Snuffy, Did you ever post the notice?
  11. GreyLensman

    GreyLensman Silver Meritorious Patron

    Gawd. I completely missed the GAT crap except for a brief mention by a good friend still stuck inside.

    When I trained as an auditor, the first time through the e-mater drills were very very difficult BECAUSE I WAS ROBOTIC. After several years of sessions, a much better communications cycle as an auditor, and listening to L. Ron Hubbard auditing on the PDC tapes, I redid some of those same drills on a course instead of as a cram, and they were bloody easy - because I was loose and fluid and I knew my stuff well enough to NOT be stiff or predictable or rote.

    The stuff sounds simply awful.

    Welcome to the outside.
  12. GreyLensman

    GreyLensman Silver Meritorious Patron

    Horseshit. If you cram the MAA you will end up on the receiving action of either ethics, justice or your own cram actions as conflictingly interpreted policy is rammed down your throat...

    More communication results in MORE ethics actions, more sec checks, more justice and more pressure to conform and to give up the crimes and overts and withholds your disagreement stems from.

    The idea that communication is welcomed or respected by Scientology as an entity is utter horseshit. The trap is that you are made responsible for communicating about the outnesses that you see and then beaten down for that communication through ethics and justice to handle your disaffection and disagreement. Bait and switch, classic. :angry:
  13. GreyLensman

    GreyLensman Silver Meritorious Patron

    ...after (counting, slowly...) 13 years of doubt and irresolution, finally resulting in a clear view of this "Church", I find this mindset just pisses me off.

    >Scientology is as sane as each of us are.<

    Yet another lie. After watching outpoint after outpoint and justifying it to myself and finding my personal integrity and honour further soiled, I won't do it anymore. When will you be able to actually say the same?
  14. You were a slave for them working for free. If a slave escapes from the plantation is he liable to go back and return the chains he wore? More likely they'd attempt to slap bigger mental chains on you if you went back to their lair. Remember the words "Thank God almighty, I'm free at last."
    Don't worry about the uniform, consider it a down payment on a future class action lawsuit settlement. Oh and being declared by the COS is a mark of honor to the rest of the non-COS part of mankind. Frame it if you are lucky enough to receive one. And be glad you
    took the red pill. (Matrix reference)
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2008
  15. Snuffy

    Snuffy Patron Meritorious

  16. Hello

    Hello Patron

    Great job Snuffy
    I love your chant
    " 1 2 3 4 I'm not brainwashed anymore" <- genius
  17. Snuffy

    Snuffy Patron Meritorious

    Thank you, Hello. I've been following your harrowing account. Well done on getting out. Since writing all that, I've been officially declared and recieved my goldenrod. I hope to get Tory Magoo and Mark Bunker to autograph it for me before I laminate it and frame it and hang it on the wall.

    It's a fun time to be out, isn't it!? :happydance:
  18. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Banned

    How bout '1; 2; 4; Five
    Still some brainwash left alive


  19. loiepoo

    loiepoo Patron

    I agree, reading Jung, Astrology and Tarot actually helped deprogram me from Scientology. Jung is Brilliant. I was an auditor for a long time in Scn. and as far as I am concerned, auditing very rarely got into the deep stuff of the subconscious mind.
  20. Out Is Good

    Snuffy, really good you followed your own mind. This site is very theraputic.