What did ya think of KTL/LOC?

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Wisened One, Sep 22, 2008.

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  1. Wisened One

    Wisened One Crusader

    On the heels of the 'What did you think while doing the OT Levels' thread:

    I want to know what ya'll thought when you started on your KTL (both the auditing part and the theory) and LOC?

    I wanted to do KTL verrrrrry badly and was actually given a few chances to route onto it while on Staff (due to upstats, etc). Well, my PES would repeatedly put the kiabosh on it saying it was too long a course, etc. (It was even on my TIP, but oh well).

    Well FINALLY one day, I got the approval that I could get just the KTL auditing (clays). I gave and received them. At the time, I was sooooo excited, I mean: KEY TO LIFE, ya know? BOY, I'm gonna become this 'super-literate, super powerful being' kinda thing, ya know? :eyeroll:

    Well to me, it was tantamount to doing an OT level at the time! (I mean, I had similar thoughts about it). And I DID actually have some major wins and even people around me say I DID change/improve as a result, etc.etc..

    But now, I wonder if it was really all that.....:hmm:

    Regardless: Did any of YOU do KTL/LOC? What did ya think? What do ya think about it all now?
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2008
  2. ThisIsIt

    ThisIsIt Patron with Honors


    Well, I did both. I thought much of KTL was great, and I did have wins. I did not like LOC as well. Was it the KEY TO LIFE for me....no. Did LOC help be realize my purpose in life...hardly. That I have been fortunate enough to figure out out side of SCN altogether! :yes:
  3. EP - Ethics Particle

    EP - Ethics Particle Gold Meritorious Patron

    Well, you DID ask...

    I did KTL and rather hated the clay table which went into a big 0verrun. I gave the KTL clay to an oriental person who barely spoke english and who I m-7nd a lot - I never believed MU phenomena before, really, but this persons eyes would roll back and would go sorta comatose until word was understood - then it was like flipping a switch and instantly all was bright and cheery and off we would go ...until another MU - then repeat process. Would LOVE to have video of some of those times. Was TONS of fun and a total blast and we had HUGE ARC for each other.

    Theory portion was done with a twin from Mexico - English only fair when we started - was excellent upon completing and even American jokes could be understood and appreciated. My English was excellent to start with, but I appreciated the grammar, syntax and the mechanics and use of language aspects. KTL really is a good course in English for anyone, IMHO. My real win was on the help flow to my twin. Again HUGE ARC with twin.

    "The Factors" at the end were "blah" because I had major wins on those previously. Had to PR completion pretty much because glowing shit was expected. :confused2:

    I would say the hazard is that a person just learning to read with comprehension and doing LTL/LOC is very likely to be totally sucked into Hubbard's stuff. This is really a problem and much more could be written on it and should, I believe. :grouch:

    LOC was not fun at all and pretty much muddled I thought. The O/W and RPE stuff was just impossible and I thought I was being sorta led to split up with my spouse and disconnect from family - so I blew it off and much later completed it elsewhere to an EP I knew would "sell" to those delivering it. :p

    Pretty stupid, huh? :yes:

    Neither had much effect on me that I know of - I was just glad to get 'em out of the road on my way to bendin' those spoons! :duh:

    Did this indicate or was it any help? I'd really like to know. :confused2:


  4. Wisened One

    Wisened One Crusader

    LOL, you guys, thanks for the replies!

    And EP: I'd never gotten onto KTL Theory nor did any of LOC (but boy did I WANT to!).

    And LOL that it didn't get ya closer to bedin' those darn spoons, eh?

    Ahhhh, but like the boy says in Matrix:

    Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That’s impossible. Instead… only try to realize the truth.

    Neo: What truth?

    Spoon boy: There is no spoon.

    Neo: There is no spoon?

    Spoon boy: Then you’ll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

    Ooooooo. :p
  5. Pixie

    Pixie Crusader

    I can honestly say, and I've written about this before, but it was one of the worst experiences I ever had inside that cult. I was pulled off almost daily by an SO member asking me for my 'crimes', I later found out this SO member was in the middle of evil purp rundown or some such thing. She did the same to my twin, it was pure hell. I got little or nothing out of either courses and it was KTL that the 'fear' really began to kick in. I feel this is where the real brainwashing began.

    It was found out during my KTL that I was having a relationship, well as much as one can on the TTC and a non enturb order was swiftly issued. I was then informed I was being 'watched', and that I was not allowed to even talk to my boyfriend anymore. I was called an 'out 2D slut', and had 'other fish to fry'.

    One snog a day does not a relationship make unfortunately. If I knew then what I knew now... oh... :D I'd have taken full advantage I can tell you! Anyway, this SO member used to come into the course room every single day and just stand there and watch. Talk about making you paranoid! :omg: ... :bigcry:

    LOC for me was just one long daze of confusion, I just didn't want to be there anymore during that, but there I stayed... for the following five years and ended up in the SO myself. :duh:

    In short, a nightmare of magnitude.
  6. Andrew

    Andrew Patron with Honors

    I think the theory portion of KTL concerning grammar and small words is absolutely fantastic.

    Big kudos to whoever developed this.

    I seriously think all schools would benefit from this.

    You can pretty much throw away any of the clay table stuff, the factors and all of LOC. I'm not saying that they aren't beneficial just that they're of no definitive, consequential long term value.

    The grammar stuff though is fantastic!
  7. Kookaburra

    Kookaburra Gold Meritorious Patron

    This is a new one on me. Why were you not supposed to be having a relationship? I thought sex was only banned on the Int base. :confused2:

    Perhaps the SO member was taking out her frustrations on you. There is something about getting into a position of authority over someone that makes people go kinda crazy.
  8. Human Again

    Human Again Silver Meritorious Patron

    Hi Wisened One,

    Big hug hello. :D

    I have found, since being out, that different things work for different people. I don't think that's all because of the differences of process, ie some processes being intrinsicly more "powerful" than others.

    I think it is because some people take a piece of information or a process and
    use it to consciously make the improvement they have chosen. And also a person can find a process ho hum one day and powerful the next because of where they are at.

    You went into KTL looking for a way to become more cause, more powerful, superliterate etc and so you found your way to that EP.

    I am not sure I am being clear here, I have read things which on one day were like "Oh yeah, I already know that...boring." Another time I read it and "Wow! OMG! That's what I've been doing!!! Yes, I can be/do/have better now."

    The person and where they are and what they are reaching for is such a big part of it.

    In Scientology we were expected to get the exact named EP every time. This is unrealistic and, as evidenced by this board, produced a lot of false attests and built up invalidations and losses.

    Please don't invalidate what you got, if others did not get the same thing. (pleading smiley) You gave yourself those wins, those increased awarenesses, skills confidences etc and you used what was infront of you to do it.

    I got gains in Scientology, but I realise now this was ME improving myself. Not some dead guy knowing exactly what I needed and giving me the EP.

    And I have had gains since, in many differnt things.

    So, big hugs Wisened One, keep your gains and go get yourself some more!

    Almost Human
  9. thetanic

    thetanic Gold Meritorious Patron

    I left long before LOC, so can someone explain what it is?
  10. HappyGirl

    HappyGirl Gold Meritorious Patron

    This says exactly what I think. I got a lot out of KTL, but the EP of LOC was supposed to be to "find your hat in life" and my EP was "my hat in life is to to find my hat in life." My husband has kidded me for years about that stellar result. But I had a ball on both. My first twin remained my twin throughout KTL/LOC, and we laughed so hard through the whole thing we were holding each other up walking to the examiner every day, who happened to be Ken Huber, who if you know him, you will know he was the best examiner AO ever had. I wouldn't be surprised if my needle floated just because it was so wonderful getting to see him every day.
  11. Pixie

    Pixie Crusader

    There was no sex happening to ban Kookaburra! As far as we were told, we were there to study, not have relationships and that was that.
  12. Wisened One

    Wisened One Crusader

    Hey AH, what a wonderful post! Thank you! :)


  13. kokol

    kokol Patron

    Could you enlighten us what that grammar stuff was? Was it making clay demos of grammar rules? I suppose the small words stuff is making clay demos of them.
  14. nexus100

    nexus100 Gold Meritorious Patron

    That sure sounds true to me!
  15. Lulu Belle

    Lulu Belle Moonbat

    Loved KTL Clay Table.

    The course itself was way too long and way too....

    I don't know.

    How many times and in how many ways can you tear apart the word "the"?


    LOC was just weird and confused.

    It was a course with an Agenda but couldn't exactly even figure out for itself what its agenda was.

    You were supposed to enhance all areas of your life but in the end the most pro survival thing you could do was join staff????

  16. FlunkedForLaughing

    FlunkedForLaughing Patron with Honors

    This was my experience too. I felt like I was able to learn anything, like I had finally mastered the English language. It could have been what I expected to get out of the course, so I made that feeling my reality. Not sure. I did find it easier to write too. The clay table was ho-hum. Nothing much to get excited about.

    On the LOC, I was waiting for a big win to happen on the course. I just kept showing up every day, going through it bit by bit, and then at the end where I had to find my "Hat in Life" I really had trouble. It turns out there are 2 different ways of interpreting your hat in life. One way is to figure out what you feel your purpose in life is, in other words, what is your destiny that you should be doing.

    The other way is to realize that your hat in life is what you are currently doing, and your hat can change if you change careers or change direction in life. It depended on what Sup I spoke to, as to what way I was being led to interpret it. I ended up doing it both ways.

    I never had a big win from the LOC.

    Since that time I have had the opportunity to work closely with the Admin Tech. Now I can see how bad it is. Just as a quick note, the number one problem I see with the Admin Tech is the fact of judging an employees performance by what happened the week before. If you hit a highest-ever production level last week, and are a back down to normal production this week, this is bad. It is viewed as a problem. If you never had the high week of stats, and maintained a slightly up graph, it is viewed as good.

    It rewards stat manipulation. It rewards an employee holding back and not giving it their best. It rewards a very short focus on their job. All they are looking at is this-weeks stats, as opposed to doing a good job this month, or this year. Sometimes doing the right thing takes longer for no extra points. It encourages employees to work for "points", and the employee has no problem getting "junk points" or doing a "stat push". And this is the Tech that the Orgs are using.

    The solution is to give everyone a minimum level of production that they need to perform on their job. Above that level and they are safe. Consistently in a high range should qualify for a raise. Below the level and they need to change things, get better, learn more, fix whatever problem they are having, or get fired. I believe that is what normal companies do in the real world.

    Needless to say I missed all this on the LOC. Studying the Org Board in a course room, versus working with a business that uses the Org Board are two different things.

  17. sallydannce

    sallydannce Gold Meritorious Patron

    I had always loved words prior to KTL and so that was an attractive part of the course for me. But the admin lines in place for managing KTL were nothing short of insane. It has now become apparent to me that this was not some localized problem I ran into but a completely bungled mess from the top down. (read: “usual story in scientology”).

    IMO, KTL was Hubbard’s great grandiose scholarly attempt at something only he had a grip on. (read: “usual story in scientology”).

    On a lighter sillier note, as this is the kind of mood I am in (let me indulge here):

    I hated the friggin’ KTL clay processing. The clay was damn near impossible to get out from under my finger-nails. I would go to really important meetings (with non-scio’s i.e. lawyers, etc, as I was doing really really important work – yawn) looking like a totally slobby mess with filthy nails. I resented that.

    Then when I got onto the small common words, I found the books so damn heavy to carry. What’s with that stupid heavy-weight paper? Total waste of trees!

    What did I get out of KTL?

    Strong arms and brilliant skills at nail cleaning techniques. I find both these skills extremely helpful in the real world.

    To me, and please forgive the pure cynicism here, the only truly valuable purpose I can now find for the ridiculously heavy small common words/ grammar books is to whack them hard over LRH’s head.

    “LRH – you there? About these heavy books” ….thump!

    Guess my reverence has gone! Oh well!
  18. Human Again

    Human Again Silver Meritorious Patron

    Oh FFL, I am so with you! :thumbsup:

    And also the stats often represented outcomes that were not controllable by the post. Stats that represented what public had to do.

    The SO and Scn tech in general gives the impression that a being can control the PU and other people. Not so.

    You can control your own behaviour ( pretty much) and you can control some aspects of the PU, move a chair, clean something etc. But you cannot control a seed to make it grow, you cannot (and wouldn't want to in normal circumstances) control another human. You would not want to make someone hand over their money, you wouldn't want to force someone to stay up til the wee hours of the morning to finish their course.

    But in the SO and on staff stats were often # of germinated seeds or the equivalent. So out come the unusal solutions "Stick leaves, from another plant that is growing, onto this seeds and make it look like it is growing- doesn't matter if we are hurting the seed that is doing what we want it's the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics to have two seeds growing right?"

    If stats reflected things that people could DO instead of things they cannot control, things would go better. Also if stats had a minimum standard aspect ( I know they say they do but really a 5 year old who is watching the Orientation film for the tenth time??? Come on!)

    Sorry to hijack the thread, I am just so passionate about this. It plagued my life for years, causing me to try and control the outcomes instead of knowing the outcome I desired and controlling my own activitie levels and quality.

    It resulted in so many losses and so much stress, even a decade or more after I left.


    PS This is a line that is also pushed elsewhere in personal development, The Secret, MLMs, etc. and I have personally seen a lot of people suffer under attempts to control the outside world rather than their own actions.
  19. Stan D'Teque

    Stan D'Teque Patron with Honors

    Did KTL - first parts OK but got new twin when into theory (same study speed, also ex-hippie etc.) and had a ball. Brand-new understanding of the language. LOC - good bits, bad bits. Seen some absolute messes from "corrections" of the Hat in Life step (one fatal) - guess that's what happens when you tell someone "this is your goal for this lifetime" which is what the promo said you'd find. It needs an overhaul badly - I think that's why it's not been promoted heavily. But it used to be a pre-requisite for Super Power - dunno the "current" take on that.
  20. Kookaburra

    Kookaburra Gold Meritorious Patron

    I hated KTL with a passion. I was on staff when it was released and every staff member was forced to drop whatever else they were doing to get on this endless bloody grammar course. I was pulled of the bridge that I was just getting back on after years of being diverted onto sec checks. I was so angry. Had to do this bloody thing in the middle of another action that I'd been winning on. And it was totally unnecessary. I was quite literate.

    The CTP went for about 3 months. I felt so overrun, but finally, being problems process basicly, I got the EP of the Suppressed Person RD. A declared SP blown SO member contacted me, we resumed communication, and a few months later I was out. Middle of KTL theory, I got really, really sick. So did a lot of other people. We were just told that KTL turns on a lot of shit. But my "exit cog" was that I was PTS to the org and couldn't stay there any longer.

    So, that is my KTL story. Sure glad I didn't stick around for LOC!!!! That was a big rehash of heaps of stuff I'd done before...product clearing and such like. I couldn't have handled doing all that again.

    As far as I'm concerned, anyone who missed this should thank their lucky stars!