What's new

What happens when you try to leave Scientology in a civil manner

Terl

Patron with Honors
This is ridiculous. I've decided it's best for me to leave the CoS. The group I was involved in recently started a Way to Happiness program and I had offered my assistance, before deciding Scientology was no longer for me. Rather than continue to ignore emails about why I was not involved in the group like I said I would be, I decided to come clean and let who we'll call Judy, know my feelings. Here's what went down, with some edits as far as names and bracketed explanations:

My original email:
Hi Judy.
I'm sorry I told you I was commited to the project, but have shown no interest. This was not my intention. I was very commited to the idea but have since run into many, many issues having to do with my spirituality. It is a very tough subject to get into without breaking (INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDER)'s servers when I click "send", but I can try to give you the low down. I already mentioned when we first got back into communication about my doubt, confusion, and anxiety about Scientology. Turns out that these were only the half of it. Without getting into it too deeply, I'll say that I 'granted some beingness' to Anonymous, and to the many critical people and websites. In Scientology, I was told to ignore these people and these topics, which I did. But it occured to me that not looking at ALL the data available is not neccessarily the best way to go about things. I thought, WHY are all these people so angry? WHAT are they protesting? It's gotta be something. (No, they're not being paid.) I made sure to be critical of the critics - still am - but there is a HUGE HUGE wealth of information that most Scientologists ignore to preserve their condition, or their case. Some of it has no validity, and some of it has plenty of validity. I cannot begin to imagine all the time I've spent reading, reading, reading. Listening, listening, listening. Watching, watching, watching. I've stayed up til sunrise several times absorbing information, and I STILL haven't read half of the critical stuff.
For me, much of it is too backed up by evidence, and much of it is agreed upon by countless people. It's not just a few SPs that maintain this data. It's people from all walks of life and in & out of every single level of Scientology. Being unable and unwilling to ignore this material anymore, I've began to look at the world differently, I've began to live my life differently. I feel more on a path of possibility, opening myself up to the idea that the tech, which I held so high and flawless in spite of my lack of course time for the last year or two, is not perfect. I say this is an issue with my spirituality, because I was very certain with my overall purpose and now am not.
I very much want to discuss this issue with Ken and Laura [family members] and get their take on it. I've had the opportunity to more than once but cannot seem to do it. I'm not sure why. I don't want to seem like I am challenging them, and I don't want to seem like I'm challenging you, either. If I'm coming across that way I don't mean to be. I am leaving out specifics for a reason.
Something pretty amazing would have to happen within the CoS, I think, before I could return to the fold. Something that casts aside any doubt any Scientologist has ever had, whether they're "in" or "out." I believe there is a lot of workable tech within Scientology and auditing, and I want to continue to explore it to find out. Have you ever heard of the "FreeZone", or "Ron's Org"?
If you don't know what those are, I can tell you. If you don't want to know, that's cool too!
Please don't discuss this with Ken and Laura until I do, okay? Maybe they will enlighten me to something I have never considered and I will be able to "as is" the situation. But for now I need to grow as a thetan, and this growth means I need to back off, just a bit.
This isn't some decision I've come to lightly. There has been turmoil, anger, tears, relief, joy,... everything! I hope you can respect my decision and respect that for me, this is the right decision. I know you think that this is the wrong thing to do, but for me and for this point in my life, it's not.
Please get back to me with your thoughts if you'd like, and again... I appologise for ditching you on the clean ups. I think it's awesome it's happening though. Great job!
Terl

Note I was respectful and civil, giving only my opinions and as said in the email, leaving out specifics so as not to upset her. After a few days, I get this condescending, almost inane response from Judy that simply boils my blood:

hi terl, i just got your mail from the 30th.
i didn't read it all, actually i barely read any of it.
i have forwarded it to the mission for someone else to deal with.

all i can say is that i can clearly see from what i DID read that there's a lot of stuff that needs to get straightened out by you, for you.

for now, to be honest, i'm not interested in getting anymore comm like this from you.
none.
it's enturbulating and invalidative of me, my job and what has helped me personally in more ways than you could understand.

i'm sorry you didn't just try to get in comm.

anyways,
i hope you work this all out.
and unfortunately ken and laura MIGHT need to know about this situation right away.

talk to you when i do.
judy

:duh:
A typical scientologist plexiglass response!!! It only confirms what the critics say about how scientologists can't just look at both sides of the story and can't think for themselves. I mean, Judy reacts to the email in completely the wrong way, and even admits to barely reading any of it.

My response:

I already talked to ken and laura about it and got it straightened out, thanks. It's absolutely not your job to do that. I certainly never meant to enturbulate you...maybe if you read it you would see I was careful not to be invalidating and was merely pointing out my problems I had with the CoS and not with any of your/my beliefs. It's heavy shit, yes, I should know. I'm the one who's dealing with it. Why would I invalidate what makes your life better when it's made my life better, as well? I'll check my sent folder to make sure it came across as attended, and apologize for anything invalidating. But you know, aside from that, it really pisses me off you would react by saying you need to tell ken and laura about it right away and send a comm that was meant FOR YOU! to the entire mission. Not cool. If I wanted to express my concerns to everybody, I would have. This is a personal issue for me that I felt I wanted to involve you in because I trusted you. Good to know I should be more careful who I talk to, though, and that it's best to ignore comm rather than explaining why I feel the need to ignore it.
Let everyone at the mission know I will ignore any attempts to "handle" me, and that if I wanted to get in comm with someone further about these things, I would have/will. In fact, why not forward this email to everybody, too?
Thanks.
Terl

I am very disappointed in how this went down and can't stop thinking about it! If you ask me, it sounds like I got under someone's skin.
Not that I even meant to...
What do you guys think about this??? :no:
 

Tanstaafl

Crusader
Well, FWIW, I think you are alive and they are robots.

Walking your own path can be both exhilirating and terrifying when you've been "shoulder to shoulder" with the robots.

Give yourself credit for doing what they cannot - looking. And for having the personal strength and integrity to do what you needed to do.

I wish you a happy and successful future! :happydance:
 

Neo

Silver Meritorious Patron
It's KSW - if your in, your in like the rest of them, and for life. It leaves no room for genuine communication. It's awkward, and painful, I know. I just went through a similar ordeal.

Per them doubt is an ethics offense, handleable by ethics conditions. Which really just degrades the being even more, and introverts one, as in the end who can you talk to, who can you trust?

From a non-scio perspective, your email suggests you were very civil. But the scio world and the non-scio world are different places, with different rules.

They get themselves into such a different state to the rest of the world, and they have to be so right about it. This leaves no room to negotiate, or communicate. And how can you be free in such a state?
 

Mrs Pattycake

Patron with Honors
It's KSW - if your in, your in like the rest of them, and for life. It leaves no room for genuine communication. It's awkward, and painful, I know. I just went through a similar ordeal.

Per them doubt is an ethics offense, handleable by ethics conditions. Which really just degrades the being even more, and introverts one, as in the end who can you talk to, who can you trust?

From a non-scio perspective, your email suggests you were very civil. But the scio world and the non-scio world are different places, with different rules.

They get themselves into such a different state to the rest of the world, and they have to be so right about it. This leaves no room to negotiate, or communicate. And how can you be free in such a state?

I am with Neo on this, also, her response smacks of the hysterical when you consider that she asked why you did not get in comm....when you were truly trying to get in comm.:duh:
 

Good twin

Floater
I am with Neo on this, also, her response smacks of the hysterical when you consider that she asked why you did not get in comm....when you were truly trying to get in comm.:duh:

That's what I was thinking. I was trying to imagine how I would have answered such a letter when I was still in. To be honest I really don't know. It is so difficult to put myself back into that mindset.

I am so sorry Terl. I know you were trying to do the right thing. I still get tons of calls from various Orgs and Scientologists. I was ignoring the calls and emails for months. A couple of weeks ago I spoke to one of them. I told her I don't want to be recovered, I am fine, please don't bug me about getting on service. She said she got it and would leave me alone. She lied. Been even more phone calls and invites, etc. I guess the point is there really is no point in trying to reason with members of Scientology. At best they will nod and say they agree, while planning their next coup to get you on board. It's what they do. They really have no choice.
:yes:
 

Pixie

Crusader
I guess the point is there really is no point in trying to reason with members of Scientology. At best they will nod and say they agree, while planning their next coup to get you on board. It's what they do. They really have no choice.
:yes:

Yes I agree with this, you cannot reason with a scientologist because there is no one or nothing to reason with as the real person, has been masked by the cultic personality, the cultic personality has taken over which is why their responses are so non-sequeter and without feeling or emotion. I look back sometimes on how I was when in and it frightens the shit out of me, I ask myself who the hell was that?? I couldn't understand why anyone wouldn't want to be an 'outstanding' scientologist, we were the only ones that could save mankind right? We were the elite. This is what they believe so you cannot try to make them see common sense because common sense left the equation quite quickly at the beginning of their heavy indoctrination.

All you have to tell yourself is that the being has been squashed away and all that's left is a bunch of robotic reactions, a know it all moronic attitude. They have to wake up themselves and in their own time, I don't know anyone who could have gotten to me while I was in, no way, even considering the shit I was going through, this was always justified to myself as who knows what but for sure it was never ever lron or the 'tech'. So don't worry about it, they will wake up, they are wakening up, and the only way we can get them to wake up is if we wake ourselves up every moment of every day.
 

Zander

Patron with Honors
A scientologist can't actually read or listen to anything which goes against their fixed beliefs and this is a prime example of it :omg:

Your email, which was perfectly curteous, rational and considerate, was only viewed as "entheta" and doubtless you are seen as promoting the "enemy line". It is so irritating when they can't even listen to you, and just want to get things "handled".

There is no actual communication allowed there, much as they would protest otherwise.

There is no actual good reason to view any difference of opinion as being enturbulative or invalidating. Why could they not listen to you properly, and if they want to disagree just say so.

All they can do it refer it to the correct "terminal" to deal with it and escape from actually having to think about the issues.

These are all mechanisms for keeping them trapped in the mindset.

If we all behaved like this in the face of rational disagreement it would be a very robotic world: a scio world :omg:

Zander
 

Terl

Patron with Honors
I am with Neo on this, also, her response smacks of the hysterical when you consider that she asked why you did not get in comm....when you were truly trying to get in comm.:duh:

hahaha, EXACTLY! It just makes no sense to say that... This is my SECOND time getting in comm about these things.

Thanks for the responses guys. I got a chuckle out of it, and a return email from Judy that was a lot nicer, but she claims to drop the comm as soon as it becomes an invalidation, or she goes PTS. And like you say Zander, why should my, or anyone else's opinion cause her to go PTS?? I've debated scientology with many people in the past, and confidence has kept me & everyone else from getting ill! there is a certain level of invalidation between two people when they are disagreeing about things. Who gives a shit? That's communication!

I suggested she learn to handle people talking trash about scientology so she can communicate through it, rather than shutting down.

And yes, there's no reasoning with them. They'll still call, email, send letters, and send promo. Ah well...
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Terl,

Well done! :goodjob:

I am not at all surprised at the response that you got. You were polite and courteous - these things mean nothing to a Scientologist who is focussed on “saving the planet”. If someone disagrees with them, that person must be wrong. If you voice concerns about the ‘church’, then you are “spreading entheta” or “forwarding enemy lines”. Dissent is not allowed within the church. :blah:

They must feel as though there are enemies everywhere now. This creates a ‘siege mentality’ which Miscavige and others will try and exploit. It can be very difficult to break down.

I think you have done absolutely the right thing. You had doubts and you looked for answers outside of the ‘church’. The fact that the CoS considers this a crime is very telling.

You may not get through to ‘Judy’ or any of the others right away, but just keep on telling the truth, without trying to make them wrong, and perhaps one day, they too, will see the truth. I would be tempted to ask her exactly what ‘wins’ she has actually had and compare this to how much effort she has had to put in.

Remember, you are not alone. Many others have gone through this before.

Good luck.

Axiom142
 

Kathy (ImOut)

Gold Meritorious Patron
In my opinion, the mention of anonymous sent her over the edge, instantly. Churchies are being spoon fed that anonymous is a "hate group" and is persecuting the CofS. And since that is early in your original comm she couldn't read beyond that. How could you be "granting beingness" to such a horrible group as anonymous?

I don't know how I would have responded if I'd gotten the same email while I was still in. But I'd like to think that I would have replied with "I understand your position, but under the circumstances I can no longer continue a comm line with you". But I pretty much maintained my own thoughts while in. Sure I followed the "rules", but I didn't live them, breath them, etc. I had my own thoughts and I didn't let the CofS control my thoughts.

How the heck did you invalidate her? By questioning your religion as well as hers is an automatic invalidation of her. Please. Some people just need to get a life and get on with it.

You did a good job with your comm, in my opinion.
 

Terl

Patron with Honors
In my opinion, the mention of anonymous sent her over the edge, instantly. Churchies are being spoon fed that anonymous is a "hate group" and is persecuting the CofS. And since that is early in your original comm she couldn't read beyond that. How could you be "granting beingness" to such a horrible group as anonymous?

I don't know how I would have responded if I'd gotten the same email while I was still in. But I'd like to think that I would have replied with "I understand your position, but under the circumstances I can no longer continue a comm line with you". But I pretty much maintained my own thoughts while in. Sure I followed the "rules", but I didn't live them, breath them, etc. I had my own thoughts and I didn't let the CofS control my thoughts.

How the heck did you invalidate her? By questioning your religion as well as hers is an automatic invalidation of her. Please. Some people just need to get a life and get on with it.

You did a good job with your comm, in my opinion.

Thanks.
You're right, the invalidation line seems just to be an excuse. Wanna get out of discussing something? Drop the 'I' word. Don't hurt my feelings!!! :bigcry:
I always maintained my own thoughts while in, too. I was younger than everyone else but for some reason I felt like I was using the whole scope of my mind while everyone else was shut off. I remember one day our ED was flipping out because a family who'd come in for a course was being told by their father that they didn't have to take any other courses if they didn't want to. She was going nuts that he was giving them that permission, and I was sitting there thinking, "Well... they don't have to!" :eyeroll:
 

Kathy (ImOut)

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks.
You're right, the invalidation line seems just to be an excuse. Wanna get out of discussing something? Drop the 'I' word. Don't hurt my feelings!!! :bigcry:
I always maintained my own thoughts while in, too. I was younger than everyone else but for some reason I felt like I was using the whole scope of my mind while everyone else was shut off. I remember one day our ED was flipping out because a family who'd come in for a course was being told by their father that they didn't have to take any other courses if they didn't want to. She was going nuts that he was giving them that permission, and I was sitting there thinking, "Well... they don't have to!" :eyeroll:

So many times I heard "you're invalidating me". Because I asked you if you like cream in your coffee? It wasn't that bad, but it sure felt like it at times. What's wrong with a healthy discussion about something? Oh, yeah, I forgot, that's not allowed while you're still in. LOL!!!!

You do realize that once you do that very first course, you pretty much have to live by KSW - so you "really" don't have a choice about not doing another course. Just kidding - but it does/did seem that extreme.
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
hahaha, EXACTLY! It just makes no sense to say that... This is my SECOND time getting in comm about these things.

Thanks for the responses guys. I got a chuckle out of it, and a return email from Judy that was a lot nicer, but she claims to drop the comm as soon as it becomes an invalidation, or she goes PTS. And like you say Zander, why should my, or anyone else's opinion cause her to go PTS?? I've debated scientology with many people in the past, and confidence has kept me & everyone else from getting ill! there is a certain level of invalidation between two people when they are disagreeing about things. Who gives a shit? That's communication!

I suggested she learn to handle people talking trash about scientology so she can communicate through it, rather than shutting down.

And yes, there's no reasoning with them. They'll still call, email, send letters, and send promo. Ah well...

"Ok, I didn't bother reading any of your email, but I'll post my opinion on it anyway..."

Where do they find these people? All of the "ethics" conditions are pro-scientology. If you do a doubt formula properly and come to the conclusion that Scn is not for you--THEN YOU DID IT WRONG!!! NOW DO IT AGAIN, AND GET IT RIGHT THIS TIME.

This "roboticity" can be found everywhere. TRs: The tech says "use a book like Alice in Wonderland." If you dared to pick any other book, you'ld be breaking the rules.

"Do birds fly?" "Do fish swim?" NEVER GET CREATIVE AND ASK YOUR OWN QUESTION "Is the sky blue?" FLUNK, CRAMMING, AND START AGAIN.

This Judy person has probably already KR'd you on breaching the policy "LEAVING AND LEAVES". Just suggesting that Scn is no longer for you is by definition "enturbulation". You, you, you, you SP!!!

Now go to Ethics and keep doing your Doubt formula until you come out with the answer we want. "I am a dedicated Scientologist."

Do you realise that everyone who answers the phone "Hello, Church of Scientology," is actaully breaking policy?

HCOPL 8 July 1962 TELEPHONE ANSWERING.

On all calls received, anyone answering should state the phone number nothing else.
"East Grinstead 4571."
Do not use "HCO" pr "Hubbard Residence" or any other answer than "East Grinstead 4571."

So we should be ringing orgs, getting the name of the person who answers the phone and then send them Cramming Orders on HCOPL 8 July 1962. :whistling:
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
So many times I heard "you're invalidating me". Because I asked you if you like cream in your coffee? It wasn't that bad, but it sure felt like it at times. What's wrong with a healthy discussion about something? Oh, yeah, I forgot, that's not allowed while you're still in. LOL!!!!

You do realize that once you do that very first course, you pretty much have to live by KSW - so you "really" don't have a choice about not doing another course. Just kidding - but it does/did seem that extreme.

That's Dev-T.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Yeah, it's KSW, as Neo says.

It's indoctrination.

For a bunch of people who are so set on confront and communication, they sure fall short, don't they!

You've put, as they would say "CI on their lines" (counter intention)

Anything other than party line stuff is considered entheta.

You were more than fair and pleasant. It's just a no win situation. Except that you will do ok now that you are apart from them. I mean the exchange between you and the ultra indoctrinated Scn'ist is a no win situation. Not what you're doing, of course. You're doing the right thing.
 

byte301

Crusader
A REAL person would have realized you were having (for lack of a better term)a crisis of faith and would have tried to figure out a way to HELP you. Instead she ratted you out as quickly as she could and refused to even try to communicate.

This is exactly why I protest. There is NO humanity left in the Co$. They are not trying to help anyone any more.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
The reason for her response was that any other response would have been "out-ethics" as a Scientologist.

The ethics system in Scientology exists to quarantine Scientologists from people who have ideas that run counter to the indoctrination. It is very similar to the screams that the pod-people would make on the street whenever they identified an outsider in "Invasion of the Body Snatchers".

It is Informational Control. A person expressing doubts about Scientology or being a Scientologist must be treated just like a dangerous and communicable disease which could infect the group and kill everyone. That is the informational control system that Hubbard set up, and he aligned it with your socially innate sense of ethics and being "good" that all human beings have.

She was just being ethical.

The thing to do is to remind her of an earlier self than the artificially-induced Scientology Self, one with a different moral code than suppressing ideas and destroying friendships.

It was when a friend reminded me of the concept of "intellectual honesty", a part of a moral code I used to have before I became a Scientologist, that I began to be able to question my adopted Scientology Self and its moral and ethical codes that I was dramatizing.

It gave me the personal perspective I needed to begin to see what I had become. It gave me something to compare myself to, and so I could begin to be able to think and to evaluate my own thoughts, emotions and behavior again.

When that started happening, all of Scientology began to collapse for me.

As Hubbard said, there is no human being that is not moral.

That is the key to the indoctrination of Scientologists, and that is also the key to the un-indoctrination of Scientologists.
 
Last edited:

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
This is reptilian brain thinking on her part frankly; black vs. white and nothing else. You say Scn isn't right for you, now, and she interprets that as you saying it doesn't work for anyone, anywhere (hence she has to say how the Tech has helped her etc.).

I wonder what her own case condition must be like if she's whining about being "invalidated"?

Reminds me of a comment by Osho Rajneesh in one of my books by him; "Better a free man in hell than a slave in heaven" (not that the CofS is heaven of course).
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
The reason for her response was that any other response would have been "out-ethics" as a Scientologist.

The ethics system in Scientology exists to quarantine Scientologists from people who have ideas that run counter to the indoctrination. It is very similar to the screams that the pod-people would make on the street whenever they identified an outsider in "Invasion of the Body Snatchers".

It is Informational Control. A person expressing doubts about Scientology or being a Scientologist must be treated just like a dangerous and communicable disease which could infect the group and kill everyone. That is the informational control system that Hubbard set up, and he aligned it with your socially innate sense of ethics and being "good" that all human beings have.

She was just being ethical.

The thing to do is to remind her of an earlier self than the artificially-induced Scientology Self, one with a different moral code than suppressing ideas and destroying friendships.

It was when a friend reminded me of the concept of "intellectual honesty", a part of a moral code I used to have before I became a Scientologist, that I began to be able to question my adopted Scientology Self and its moral and ethical codes that I was dramatizing.

It gave me the personal perspective I needed to begin to see what I had become. It gave me something to compare myself to, and so I could begin to be able to think and to evaluate my own thoughts, emotions and behavior again.

When that started happening, all of Scientology began to collapse for me.

As Hubbard said, there is no human being that is not moral.

That is the key to the indoctrination of Scientologists, and that is also the key to the un-indoctrination of Scientologists.


I think that each person has his/her issues. This girl has her issues too, and that is why she got into Scientology in the first place, like any of us. I cannot analyze her issues as I have not lived her life, but I can certainly analyze mine when I was actively participating in Church activities as a Sea Org member or otherwise.

I certainly felt that I was fortunate to have better understanding of life knowing Scientology and, thus, felt superior to non-Scientologists; but I never looked down upon them as wogs. My effort was always to let others know what I knew in simplest terms as possible. I never cut my communication with "wogs." If there were disagreements it was not difficult for me to differentiate between silly arguments and valid questions. The valid questions from non-Scientologists always made me think.

Thus, I developed my own understanding of Scientology, instead of confirming to somebody else's insistence on how Scientology should be interpreted. Maybe, that is why I never moved up the ranks, and I didn't care about it. I was happy in whatever I did because I did it with integrity. I did get assigned to RPF twice and that was fine with me too as my tolerance level has been quite high having grown up in India. Ultimately, I was deemed unfit for Sea Org and let go from my second time in RPF, and after being assigned to RPF's RPF.

It was simply a period of evolution for me; and I evolved within the confines of my sense of integrity.

I think that people in CoS become robotic when they are so confused that either they never developed a sense of integrity, or they let their sense of integrity be overridden by the pressures around one. I wonder how much one's culture, one's family background, or one's experience prior to Scientology, is a factor in this.

.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
When Scientology works as designed, people become robotic 'perfect Scientologists'.

Luckily, Scientology usually *doesn't* work.

Zinj
 
Top