What if it wasn't dub in?

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Mimsey Borogrove, Feb 7, 2017.

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  1. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    I think many exes eschew whole track incidents and BTs as batshit crazy Hubbard spew. This is despite other non-Hubbardian beliefs to the contrary. True, after a while, running dianetics, the incidents seem too pat or in some cases you know you are running dub in, and so write it all off as bull shit.

    But, what of those incidents that come out of left field? And of those that don't even occur in session? Those compulsions or dramatizations that take you over and leave you wondering what the fuck just happened? You find your self stuck acting out something that has taken control of your volition? Things that you find your self doing for the first time that feel eerily familiar?

    Are they manifestations of an earlier life that got turned on? The limbic system gone mad? Jungian archetypes that have got your in their thrall?

    Oh and speaking of BT's - what about the ones that have startlingly real personalities and talk to you as if they were a real person? As unpredictably as when you conversing with a total stranger? Saying stuff that makes you seriously believe in their real existence?

    Did you mock them up to run, or were they real?

    Where as Scientologists may chalk these things up as real, what do you, the ex or non scientologist do when confronted with such a 3d pole sticking off the surface of your a 2d world? Deny it? Cognitive dissonance it? Believe it? Ignore it? Hope it goes away? Put off thinking about it? Get a migraine?

    These are the things that are much like that beloved 50's tv show: Up ahead is a sign post - you are entering.... the Twilight Zone, because how do you explain them? They may be subjective, but damn - are they real. And they are unsettling.

    Very unsettling.


  2. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    I thought that you had already read about schizophrenia. :confused2:

  3. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    No! The below from your link is not what I mean. I said:
    Your reference is a command or authoritarian or invalidative thought process. Not what I am referring to. I am talking about a normal everyday two way communication.

  4. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    That was only one example.

    When I was a child, with family, at a park ... we saw a homeless man walking through a stream and talking to the plants as he passed them. He acted like the plants were talking to him as he passed them. It was like they were friends.

    This is schizophrenia.

    About 1.5 years ago I was visiting a local community college and saw a young male talking with imaginary people. He was not upset at all.
    His imaginary people did not appear to be invalidating him. He acted as though they were friends.
    He was talking to imaginary people about where he was and what he did some time ago. (He almost ran into me as I walked by.)
    There were 3 college staff women, one was a nurse school instructor, closely watching him from a few yards away.

    This is schizophrenia.
  5. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Well yeh, Programmer Guy, but there is certainly more to schizophrenia than someone talking to plants or animals.

  6. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Well, Mimsey,

    I do love the way you can stir up things among they who wish not to be stirred!!:biggrin:

    Personally, my answer is to go with the answer that goes with or produces a worthwhile result.

    Historically, there is so much record of stuff in the vein you are referring to that resulted in monster physical universe outcomes . . . one simple example:

  7. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    Some folks will explain all that for you, you know, for the right price.
  8. Hypatia

    Hypatia Pagan

    I've had past life memories that came kind of out of the blue- not in session. In my opinion, they're probably actual past life memories. I think a number of New Age disciplines can open up a person's ability to get in touch with those. But, not like I can prove it.
  9. Elronius of Marcabia

    Elronius of Marcabia Silver Meritorious Patron

    Interesting choice of Twilight Zone picture and episode, what a nightmare when an immature child
    has power over an entire community, great parallel to Hubbard and Miscaviage both immature
    power hungry little brats who never grew up :yes:disconnection = into the cornfield :yes:

    sorry Hypatia I meant to quote Mimsey :duh:
  10. pineapple

    pineapple Patron Meritorious

    Yes. The little boy also made the adults watch the pictures he caused to appear on TV. And they had to praise the programming for fear of angering him.
  11. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    I agree - I always wondered if as-ising was enough to erase stuff in the mind, but more along the lines of the OP - is the mere mention of something enough to key it in? In the out of session past life keyins or remembrances there was a more concrete trigger that woke it up.

    Most of the stuff that I was wandering around in session looking for, I feel was dub-in. Truth be told - letting me wander around looking for some damn engram was in violation of Hubbard's dictate - the auditor controls the PC's time track. Ref - the old time track hcobs that were issued on the HDC, the predecessor of Std Dianetics, which was prior to the NED course. Phew.

    The out of session past life recalls had a ring of genuineness to them as well.

    As an aside - I ran one PC and could see his engrams before he mentioned them, and my BC twin was telling me about a wide open case he audited - the guy would fly down the track with alacrity.

    Thanks Hypatia,

  12. Gib

    Gib Crusader

  13. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    not quite sure here, Mims, how could you see his engrams?

    and your BC twin, the guy would fly down the track with alacrity. Did anybody question this flying down the track as true, as verifiable?

    Is the Emeter your evidence of it being true?
  14. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    I saw them. Other auditors have done this as well. This is nothing new or startling. They were kinda dark pictures and they started clarifying then he started telling me about the engram. I am not referring to eyeball vision. More of a theta perception. They were around his head or above it. Sort of seeing with eyes and theta simultaneously I guess.

    I dunno how how else to describe the wide open case. You say move to XXXX date and he does rather instantly, and describes it in detail. What you are asking about verifying it, is a violation of the auditors code. You take the PC's data. You don't ask him how he knows he's there, you just run the procedure as written in the HCOBs. To do otherwise would land you in craming.

    And it was metered auditing as far as I know.

  15. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor


    I have a different take on how an auditor can "see" the pc's pictures/engrams.

    In other venues, it is not unusual for one person to see mental images, such as an author writing scenes for a book or movie. They develop the ability to "see" it.

    Or, in the days of radio dramas, the audience members around the world developed a real ability to "see" what the characters were saying and doing in their "mind's eye".

    Same with reading a novel and imagining how it looks.

    None of these examples is a confirmation that anything actually happened in the real world.

    If you did, in fact, develop or acquire the ability to see another's mental pictures, you would be quite a phenomenon. It would be truly awesome if anyone could do that. I am sincere when I ask you if you really think you can demonstrate that ability.

    Second question (also sincere): Would you be upset if you learned that you were using your powers of imagination rather than "theta perception" when you saw the PC's engrams?

    I find the entire subject of paranormal powers quite fascinating in all regards, whether it works or doesn't--and whether both practictioners and audience members believe or don't believe.

    Please don't take it personally, but I am very skeptical of claimed "powers" until I see someone demonstrate them. That hasn't happened yet, but I'd be excited to witness such an event if it ever did.
  16. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Could be. The better charge-reducing procedures audit in present time: like you're relieving some incident (or series of incidents, or part of an incident, etc) using whatever technique it is -- boppity boppity boppity -- and a more basic incident (or series of incidents, or part of an incident, etc) comes to view unbidden and maybe you can get a bit more off the original one but soon the new one is all you can see so you address that one -- bippity bippity bippity -- because you can't do anything else. This more basic thing might be earlier or later in time; you don't care if it agrees with someone's theory or not but it is what comes naturally to view without searching for it at all.

  17. Demented Hubbatd

    Demented Hubbatd Patron with Honors

    schizophrenia is a possible explanation. Another, more benign, explanation is that poor OTs are the folk who are prone to self-induced hallucinations (self-induced hallucinations are the ones not caused by chemical substances including drugs). Roughly 10% of the earth population occasionally have self-induced hallucinations that do not impede their logical thinking. Unlike the OTs, these people know that they sometimes hallucinate, and do not take their visions seriously.

    But the OTs are brainwashed and believe in all kinds of unreal things, not just communications with thetans. For example, my friend, who was an OT 3 at the time we met, believed that she saw Hitler's spirit hiding in the bushes.

    Unfortunately for the OTs, their self-induced hallucinations seem to strengthen with the passage of time.
  18. strativarius

    strativarius Comfortably Numb

    I'm sorry, but I just get so exasperated when I see posts like this that are full of scientology terminology like 'as-ising', 'key-in', 'past life', 'dub-in', 'time-track', 'wide open case' and 'engrams'.

    None of these things mean anything in the real world, most of them are just terms Hubbard invented while attempting to give some plausibility to his pseudo-scientific inventions namely dianetics and scientology. Why are we having a conversation about these ephemera? IMO we might as well be discussing Unicorns for all the benefit it'll bring us!
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
  19. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    ah yes, I see what you are saying.
  20. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor


    You see it? LOL

    On a related note, I just found an excellent presentation on the subject of how humans attain supernatural OT powers that explained the phenomena much more succinctly than I did in my post.



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