What is freedom?

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Alle G, Sep 13, 2013.

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  1. Alle G

    Alle G Patron with Honors

    What does freedom mean for the scientologist?

    Did Hubbard confuse freedom with power? Power with control?

    Is the ultimate picture of freedom - omnipotent thetans throwing ‘galaxies’ at each other? Or is it the picture of ultimate power?

    How do scientologists perceive freedom?
  2. hpm1999

    hpm1999 Patron with Honors

    I think Hubbard's conception of Freedom can be summarized as "Do what thou Wilt" as outlined by his friend and mentor Alestair Crowley. The idea that Hubbard' s conception FREEDOM for anyone other than himself, excepting that it allowed HIM to "Do What he wilt", is nonsense.

    He was clearly, based on the massive weight of objective evidence, a schizophrenic, possibly bi-polar, mentally unstable, narcissist. I would submit, it is better when thinking of him & his CO$ (the CO$ today is simply natural progression of Hubbards KSW) to think in Orwellian Terms.

    A)Freedom = Enslavement of others by whatever means (trickery, deceit, threats) in the service of Hubbard's Freedom to "Do what he Wilt"

    B)Power=powerlessness of others except in the service of Hubbard's machine (CO$- carefully crafted to enslave others) which was designed to allow him to "Do what he Wilt"

    Everything else Hubbard did-all that he spoke, thought or acted was designed to achieve the two things above.

    As an aside Lawrence Wright carefully noted that many on board the Apollo would pass by Hubbard's office/quarters and see him diligently working with his "hands on the cans" auditing himself and taking notes for hours or days on end. These SO and CO$ members took this as evidence of his sincerity and determination. And they were correct- but all of that work and time was focused, from my perspective, on two things:

    1> A vain attempt at Freeing himself from the very real mental demons and schizophrenia that haunted him (as Wright says OT3 onwards is simply a tour of Hubbards tortured mental states)
    2> Building the giant Orwellian Man (and Woman)Trap of CO$ in order to ensnare people in GIANT scheme to serve his purpose (And enable his Freedom to "do what he wilt, AND give him the adulation, income (he was not in it for money) that his warped and wicked mind needed.

    So your questions about power, freedom etc assume that Hubbard's notion of such matches with societal norms and the definitions society gives such.

    But George Orwell holds the key to understanding Hubbard.
    Freedom is SLAVERY

    Looking back- prior to starting my Internet and CO$ scouring- the most important books I read were
    Animal Farm.
  3. Alle G

    Alle G Patron with Honors

    Thanks hpm1999

    I agree with you. However in 1984 a person is destabilized intellectually and emotionally and is rendered powerless by uncertainty of ever changing world. Or rather by ever changing interpretation of the world (blackwhite, thought crime, lie=truth etc). He does not know where he stands and he is easy to control. He is always wrong, it is safer to follow orders because he is always being watched. He knows he is powerless and not free.

    In scientology people have certainty, the world is satisfactorily explained, everything is set in stone. Their energy is spent in not trying to let the world in (entheta). They also rely on orders (do what Ron says) as it is the only safe way and they are easy to control. They are also always wrong and are constantly being watched.

    However, my question is do they know they are not free? Do they feel powerless (like in '1984') or empowered?
  4. iHateDuplicity

    iHateDuplicity Patron with Honors

    What Scilons think the are going to get:

    What Scilons actually get:

    A pic is worth a thousand words, so I thought this might save you some reading.
  5. hpm1999

    hpm1999 Patron with Honors

    In summary my view is that SCIOs hold BOTH ideas

    A)"I have freedom and power in CO$" and
    B)"I don't have any power or freedom I am a prisoner".

    They hold ideas simultaneously that are completely contrary such as "My world is stable (the tech is the path)" and "the world of CO$ is arbitrary- I can do everything right, give up my last cent and all my time and still end up in a sec check or RFP, or being declared for no good reason".

    The former Ideas are front and center and becomes a mantra whilst the latter are recognized by the person, even if not acknowledged consciously. Holding these CONTRARY ideas causes COGNITIVE Dissonance (well documented in Janja Lalich's seminal Book "Bounded Choice" whereby most sociological cult members exhibit dissonance). The "normal" human mind is not built to endure such.

    Lalich explores this idea- and she believes it lays at the heart of why people eventually leave and/or exhibit psychosis (nervous breakdowns, temporary insanity) whilst in or after leaving such cult.

    Of course this does NOT apply to those who control the milieu (think of them as the ruling oligarchy in 84, or the Pigs in Animal Farm).

    So the answer is that CO$ members hold BOTH ideas... as contrary as they are.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  6. your estimation of l ron hubbard is quite popular on this board

    as is well evidenced by the director anderson in the film "the master" this not the way he is being discussed in mainstream dialogue it is but the belief of the anti-ron cult
  7. Alle G

    Alle G Patron with Honors

    I agree completely. But what does Total Freedom mean for the ordinary scientologist?

    In Christianity after death your immortal soul will exist forever in hell or paradise. In Buddhism you reject life because all human goals are fleeting and therefore meaningless. You refuse to procreate and propagate life further. Ultimately you will exist (maybe) in a permanent unchanging state without a body. (If everyone is a Buddhist life will be extinguished).

    Scientologists (a bit like Buddhists) renounce their ‘householder’ goals (children’s education, better house, retirement fund) and divert their money to purchase Total Freedom.

    What does Total Freedom mean for them?
    - to have amazing secret OT abilities like changing a tyre without using hands?
    - to exist without the body and do what?
    - to live on better planets next lifetime not on this ‘prison planet’?
    - to recognize the current state of the world and mind as unsatisfactory and do anything (Bridge) to get out this state (trap)? Without worrying what happens when you are out?

    Bridge to Total Freedom must have some personal meaning to justify such total dedication.
  8. Hubbard designed Scientology to be like the virus malware scams that were going around a few years back. The ones that would infect your computer then keep popping messages with links for a $29.95 program to remove it

    They sell Total Freedom from the computer virus that wasn't on your computer until they put it there.

    Hubbard sells Total Freedom from the batshit crazy nonsense that didn't concern you until he filled your head with it
  9. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    Exactly. And that is why in this way Hubbard was more clear-headed than Orwell in that one respect. He realized that you don't have to put so much effort into propaganda to make people feel powerless if they are doing it to themselves via cognitive dissonance that they themselves volunteer to participate in.

    And Alle G, I seem to remember the old folks in the USSR of the 90s still had some of that cognitive dissonance left in their heads from the 50s, not having peeled all the layers of the CPSU onion - because Stalin, too was a master of it. Push forward! Oh, no dizzy from success. Workers of the world unite! Oh, no Socialism in one country. But Stalin is fulfilling the ideal of Marxism - Leninism.

    I don't think Orwell explored the ideas of the internal cognitive dissonance enough, because he was a never in, never lived in a Communist country and didn't talk about the Sovok aspects of Stalin's propaganda, when everyone knew it was bullshit from their own observations. I think that was why Mikhail Zoshchenko in his generation and Venedikt Erofeev in his were so popular with the public and reviled by the CPSU. (My favorite Erofeev scene is where he accidentally sends uplines the tallies he's been making of the crew's drinking instead of the fake progress reports).
  10. Alle G

    Alle G Patron with Honors

    People of my generation (born in the 60s) and younger never believed in communism or Lenin. Stalin was a monster and an idiot. Lenin’s 100 years old celebration was nothing but a year long string of dirty jokes (like a soap named ‘Lenin’s places’).

    ‘1984’ has more similarities with USSR than with scientology. Because in ‘1984’ like in Soviet Union people did not believe in communism or Lenin. Ideology was to be endured like bad weather.

    In scn people did believe in Hubbard and scientology, which makes it different from ‘1984’.

    My favourite Erofeev’s quote is: ‘You keep saying Kremlin, Kremlin. There is no Kremlin.’
  11. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    True, but the older generation did believe. And they held all the power until Brezhnev died, and some of the power until Yeltsin came along. I truly feel that Yazov thought he was bringing back the Communism he believed in during the Lithuanain crackdown in January 1991 and the coup attempt later in August.
  12. Alle G

    Alle G Patron with Honors

    This is what a free person says, success story of OT 48 from Russian Ron’s org, generic non-specific bullshit. I cut it in half, not worth translating.

    “I have finished Bridge to Total Freedom!”

    “I have completed Bridge to Total Freedom!
    Free being is aware of their own spiritual essence!
    Free being is the treasure of life!
    Free being owns their own potential!”

    And other bullshit.

    Their magazine is called “Swimming arrow” – I guess it is floating needle.
  13. i would say that ex, former, and inactive scientologists are commonly among the freest people you'll ever meet. some will credit their study to greater or lesser degree an others, often vehemently, will say only that freeing themselves "from the cult" makes them freer than most

    it is much easier to enslave a person than to free them. and at bottom line only those who free themselves are free


    it does seem ron sort of locks people in cages...

    with a hacksaw and complete instructions on how to use it
  14. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Many moons ago I did a public speaking class at the University of Massachusetts and chose this piece from Kahlil Gibran for an assignment:

    (it is inside this as well as other books: http://www.amazon.com/Prophet-Kahli...333&sr=1-1&keywords=kahlil+gibran+the+prophet )

    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
  15. o it's rally 'round the flag boys!

    rally 'round the flag!

    shouting the battle cry of "freedom"!
  16. Alle G

    Alle G Patron with Honors

    Capt Birdsong, I almost agree with you, I don’t know about ‘the freest people’ but I think ex-scientologists are more aware people than the general population. I think they were forced to learn about themselves the hard way when their inner self was almost destroyed by Hubbard. Those who survived were forced to find out who they are and what they stand for and recognize Hubbard for what he is. They did not allow their inner core to disintegrate like Hubbard wanted.

    I also think you make a statement with your own life. A person who lived for 33 years in the car deserves to be listened to. This what wandering Taoists do or this is what Buddhists renouncing life do. I don’t know about you but I think that people who show total disregard for the opinion of the world must possess a huge amount of freedom (or of course absence of conscience on the other side of the spectrum).
  17. Infinite

    Infinite Crusader


    Cool question. Scientologists (generally speaking, most of the time) do not have opinions, they have references. Accordingly, for a Scientologist, "freedom" means:

    The first definition can hardly be described as "freedom". No one can create "energy" (in the physics sense of the word which is what L Ron Hubbard was on about but didn't understand) and no one can create matter, regardless of time and space. The "absence of barriers" is an interesting one and, IMHO, seems to fit with the "do as thou wilt" as mentioned in an earlier comment. I'm not sure anyone functioning within modern society can honestly say they are "without barriers" given things like the law, gravity, and so on. The third definition also seems a nonsense in that even a slave can have lots of space and the ability to use it. The fourth, of course, is just a repetition of one of the trapdoors into the mindfuck. Each of the component parts - ARC=U - comes with its own pre-loaded Scientology definitions and, in combination, are actually used to diminish the freedom of others.

    Its probably just as well L Ron Hubbard defined "freedom" because it gives Scientologists something to agree on. Absent the defintion, if we were to ask every Scientologist what they believed "freedom" was, I imagine there would be nearly as many different interpretations as there are Scientologists. If that's true, it would provide a paradoxical but genuine path to a wider truth. That's because with so many interpretations there can be no agreement and without agreement, according to L Ron Hubbard, there can be no reality. This leads directly to the valid conclusion that, in Scientology "freedom" doesn't exist. But, of course, the definition does, and so the mirage glimmers just over the horizon, at the end of the next course.

    Personally, I think "freedom" for a Scientologist comes at that moment when it becomes apparent to them that they have nothing left to lose.


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