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What the main problem is with Hubbard

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
like I said,

hub = hell v a hoax.

Up to you as to which allusions resonate with you. I just know that I personally am certainly not free to make or contribute to any play on words that seems to reference another contributor's name... too many people ready to pounce.

So ya startled me a bit with that one...
 

Gib

Crusader

Balthasar

Patron Meritorious
..............
Here's my nutshell re Hub:

He was a hypocrite.

He wrote about all the abuses and pitfalls of power and then did them.

He wrote about what churches did wrongly-then his church did all that and worse.

He wrote about what goverments and groups should do-then did the opposite.

A hypocrite is someone who knows the right way, talks about it, talks about what not to do, gives examples of those who do as they shouldn't then goes against all of it.

If he'd not been a hypocrite, just about every problem we've seen with Scn would not have existed.

Hubbard was no hypocrite. I don't really think so.

However he did have a very fluctuating personality. That's all. Sometimes this personality likes people and really cares about them. Other times it just wants to screw them all over depending on circumstances. You can't do much about it other than to deal with it. It's a flaw but I know worse than that.

Now I wasn't happy that Hubbard said there wouldn't be a hidden data line when there in fact was a whole parallel universe in Scientology as I found out one day when I was, as non Go SO staff, digging through loads of GO micro files to gather evidence etc. Here there was a completely different world having nothing to do with on policy reports.

I could be upset about that, certainly. It caused me lots of trouble and I made wrong decisions based on the belief that every one would play fair while in. I trusted everybody would be in the same game to the same terms or same policies. But it wasn't, so I am a slightly bit annoyed that Hubbard wasn't telling everybody about it. Would have been nice not to be treated like a complete retard not deserving to know what's going on.

Well, maybe he thought there are too many imbeciles around and to be honest, who could argue with that. Lots of idiots everywhere. So I let it slide once more.

No, I wouldn't say Hubbard was hypocrite. I believe he meant what he said when he said it. Then he meant another thing another time, going from one extreme to the other.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Hubbard was no hypocrite. I don't really think so.

However he did have a very fluctuating personality. That's all. Sometimes this personality likes people and really cares about them. Other times it just wants to screw them all over depending on circumstances. You can't do much about it other than to deal with it. It's a flaw but I know worse than that.

Now I wasn't happy that Hubbard said there wouldn't be a hidden data line when there in fact was a whole parallel universe in Scientology as I found out one day when I was, as non Go SO staff, digging through loads of GO micro files to gather evidence etc. Here there was a completely different world having nothing to do with on policy reports.

I could be upset about that, certainly. It caused me lots of trouble and I made wrong decisions based on the belief that every one would play fair while in. I trusted everybody would be in the same game to the same terms or same policies. But it wasn't, so I am a slightly bit annoyed that Hubbard wasn't telling everybody about it. Would have been nice not to be treated like a complete retard not deserving to know what's going on.

Well, maybe he thought there are too many imbeciles around and to be honest, who could argue with that. Lots of idiots everywhere. So I let it slide once more.

No, I wouldn't say Hubbard was hypocrite. I believe he meant what he said when he said it. Then he meant another thing another time, going from one extreme to the other.

What I bolded above has been confirmed by many many others as well, that Hubbard's assurance to us that "there is no hidden data line" was a complete load of BS.

I came to a different conclusion however as to WHY he was lying to his staff. I believe he told us the real reason in June of 1952 in a lecture entitled "Off the Time Track" (later excerpted and reprinted in the Tech Volumes, (Volume 1, p. 418).

He told us:


originally quoted by L. Ron Hubbard
"THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM. You can write that down in your book in great big letters. The only way you can control anybody is to lie to them."
 

Balthasar

Patron Meritorious
Yes you are right. But it remains also true that he was honest about his mindset as you pointed out with the quote. He told people how, and then did it, because that's what he was convinced to be right. So he wasn't really withholding in this case. I am fine with such.

With the parallel GO Pl's he intentionally mislead and might have crossed a line.
 
Yes you are right. But it remains also true that he was honest about his mindset as you pointed out with the quote. He told people how, and then did it, because that's what he was convinced to be right. So he wasn't really withholding in this case. I am fine with such.

With the parallel GO Pl's he intentionally mislead and might have crossed a line.

nice to see you punching in balthy

nice to see someone say something against a charge against ron. i was thinking of of saying something here in the old goat's behalf but it's nice to see someone else play devil's advocate once in a while

classically...

hypocrisy is charged against someone of pious and sanctimonious stance. i don't think ron had a lot of piety or sanctimony to him

then if you look at it in the more mundane sense of hypocrisy it doesn't have the weight to be a huge flaw...

maybe claire just misspelled hippogriff...
 

Gib

Crusader

What I bolded above has been confirmed by many many others as well, that Hubbard's assurance to us that "there is no hidden data line" was a complete load of BS.

I came to a different conclusion however as to WHY he was lying to his staff. I believe he told us the real reason in June of 1952 in a lecture entitled "Off the Time Track" (later excerpted and reprinted in the Tech Volumes, (Volume 1, p. 418).

He told us:

lest not forget about the fact that when a person wishes to leave, it's NOT because of O/W's.

What a crock of shit the whole thing is, generally speaking.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crock of shit
 
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Helena Handbasket

Gold Meritorious Patron
Anyway, the story, and this is from Cap'n Bill (Astar Paramejgian) himself, was that he and Elron Elray have joining cabins on the Main Ship (mother ship in outer space), each with his own doll body, and this has been this way for a long time. The Main Ship and the doll bodies and the identities of Elron and Astar predate this lifetime, and are ancient, etc.
"Elron" and "Astar" are games names, effectively the name of the thetan as opposed to the "meat body" name which changes from lifetime to lifetime (or which is absent altogether if there is no "meat body"). I, too, have a games name and it's Lumni Aster, which means Shining Star. For that matter, most people have games names even if they don't remember them.

Games names and the mothership predate LRH's and CBR's 20th Century lifetime but I don't think the doll bodies do. If you were coming "back home" in a sense, wouldn't you want the latest model? Woo hoo!

And you might wonder -- what about sex? My understanding is that if you're OT enough, you simply temporarily occupy a meat body belonging to someone else (without evicting them or anything like that) and share the sensation when they have sex. I suppose a nubile meat body couple could invite an OT doll body thetan couple to come in and take a ride. :blush:

Helena, getting too metaphysical for her own good
 

Anonycat

Crusader

What I bolded above has been confirmed by many many others as well, that Hubbard's assurance to us that "there is no hidden data line" was a complete load of BS.

I came to a different conclusion however as to WHY he was lying to his staff. I believe he told us the real reason in June of 1952 in a lecture entitled "Off the Time Track" (later excerpted and reprinted in the Tech Volumes, (Volume 1, p. 418).

He told us:

Hubbard was also notable, in that if he disapproved of some of his loyal followers, he'd put a hit out on them, and order other followers to carry it out. Fugget about their survival, self- determinism and all that BS -- shoot them dead with a .45. That some deep philosopher thinking there. Also, Charles Manson.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hubbard was also notable, in that if he disapproved of some of his loyal followers, he'd put a hit out on them, and order other followers to carry it out. Fugget about their survival, self- determinism and all that BS -- shoot them dead with a .45. That some deep philosopher thinking there. Also, Charles Manson.

Hey, wait a minute. Don't malign ol' Charlie there, he said $cientology was too crazy even for him.
 

Helena Handbasket

Gold Meritorious Patron
Anyway, the story, and this is from Cap'n Bill (Astar Paramejgian) himself, was that he and Elron Elray have joining cabins on the Main Ship (mother ship in outer space)... .
This sounds interesting. Could we get a reference?

Helena
 

The_Fixer

Class Clown
"Elron" and "Astar" are games names, effectively the name of the thetan as opposed to the "meat body" name which changes from lifetime to lifetime (or which is absent altogether if there is no "meat body"). I, too, have a games name and it's Lumni Aster, which means Shining Star. For that matter, most people have games names even if they don't remember them.

Games names and the mothership predate LRH's and CBR's 20th Century lifetime but I don't think the doll bodies do. If you were coming "back home" in a sense, wouldn't you want the latest model? Woo hoo!

And you might wonder -- what about sex? My understanding is that if you're OT enough, you simply temporarily occupy a meat body belonging to someone else (without evicting them or anything like that) and share the sensation when they have sex. I suppose a nubile meat body couple could invite an OT doll body thetan couple to come in and take a ride. :blush:

Helena, getting too metaphysical for her own good

You mean group sex? LOL.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Sexopoly ?????

Wouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Mine, group sex
game name
was Bright bulb!
 

Dave B.

Maximus Ultimus Mostimus
Hey, wait a minute. Don't malign ol' Charlie there, he said $cientology was too crazy even for him.

Another great idea for a T-shirt! Pic of Charlie, caption sez: "$cientology is too crazy for me!" I'd wear it at a protest.
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
Another great idea for a T-shirt! Pic of Charlie, caption sez: "$cientology is too crazy for me!" I'd wear it at a protest.

Charles_manson_expressions_3129.gif
 

ClearedSP

Patron with Honors
I think the basic flaw of Hubbard's was the same as for Scientology itself -- dishonesty. What catapulted him to fame and money was lies about cases and research that Sarah said were fabricated on the spot, and nobody has ever come up with any evidence to refute that. He sold us on a fictitious version of himself to go along with the fictitious research. The mentally perfect, but "blind and crippled" war hero, abandoned by his family, curing himself by making the greatest discovery since fire.

When making outlandish and unjustifiable claims had made him a (temporarily) rich man, why should he change his mode of operation? Next stop, "Dr." Hubbard's new not-a-religion, Scientology. And on from there.

If the guy hadn't been a liar, none of the rest would have mattered much to me.
 
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