While you were in scn, have you ever doubted your case status?

[renegade]

Recently, I had a conversation with a now out scn. The subject of doubting case levels came up but no one could talk about that while still in.
I am curious if anyone had these personal thoughts too. At the time you would get in big ethics trouble for false attesting.

One scn I knew did doubt and voice their Clear status after the "buzz" wore off and life became difficult again and no new abilities were evident.

I saw one OT 8 who was pretty dynamic right after completing the level, who became introverted after having new OT 8 re-released as if s/he was a fake all that previous time.

One OT 7 was so "happy" after s/he was told was not clear and said it "All made sense now." This OT 7 must have had these doubting thoughts but never said anything previously.

Another OT 7 used to get baffled at people lower on the bridge who made more money, exhibited talent or more ability than s/he had.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I honestly believe that every person who "attests" knows (deep down) that they are very much the same at core level even as they accept the certificate, but they may choose not to think about it.

Attesting means you can get on to the next level (or get out of the org and go home) so it certainly gives an initial warm glow (lol).

I have never seen a change in a single person apart from one man that could hardly speak to anyone socially (due to extreme shyness) ... it took around 3 years but he eventually became able to have a quiet chat 'one on one' and that was a huge thing for him. He was always a beautiful soul though. Being announced as a completion for the basic courses he did was painful to watch, it was very difficult for him to stand in front of about 20 people and speak a few words, but he did it and I was very proud of him.

I saw no real changes in anyone else (and I knew a lot of OT's) and I know without a doubt that I doubted my own case status at every step I did because I was gradually becoming more and more introverted, stressed and trapped in the cult and I could feel it. (I only went to OT3).

 

[RogerB]

Renegade,

That is a very intelligent and appropriate post you opened this thread with.

I find there are several answers to it.

First of all, one should not invalidate any gains one actually had doing any spiritual enlightenment or enhancement or advancement tech . . .

However, the line-up of Hubbard's "supposed to be's" as expressed on the Grade Chart are absolute fiction and bullshit. "Clear" as stated and defined, being the beginning of the bullshit. As a very old-timer, I can vouch for knowing , umm, what is it? four or is it five, maybe even six different announced "states of Clear" that . . . from memory, in my personal history of what he promoted, went something like this. "Clear" absolute, total and wonderful (per DMSMH) 1950. Theta Clear (about 1952), Cleared Theta Clear, 1st Goal Clear (1962-3), "Real Clear" (the real deal clear 1967?), Dianetic Clear (1969-70) then "Natural Clear ??? . . . Have I missed one?? . . . Umm, yes, "Invalidated Clear" And I think he also had a "Cleared OT" or some other nonsense in there

The fact is, the posited state of Clear is actually a bit of stupidity and marketing bullshit by a fraudster . . . but, that does not negate nor invalidate the actual gains obtained in the exercise or using by the tech . . . it is just that the alluded to, posited state Being promoted by Hubbard as the outcome to accomplish was bullshit.

Ask any honest "Clear": "Clear of what?"

Truthfully, none ever got clear of or erased their purported "reactive mind." Though, they should not invalidate the gains they did get, and the freedom from the areas or issues of case they did obtain.

It is also true regarding all of the posited and claimed to be "OT States." They are bullshit marketing gimicks . . . though this does not invalidate any gains obtained from doing the levels, it does state that the promoted outcome as claimed would be by Hubbard IS bullshit.

As Alan Walter so rightly demonstrated, Scientology (and Dianetics) was fraught with the phenomena he recognized as the "Ascension Crash and Burn."

The problem being that the PC (and some students) had a colossal win and ascend UP out of the case they were in . . . but the UP was into the next level of case above them that has yet to be correctly handled and, when enlivened by the person using their "new" ascended to power, that higher level of case, force, charge and mass, kicks them in the teeth.

I can't tell you the number of times I've heard the statement told to folks (and me) after we'd finished a level and yet felt something was unhandled that it would be handled on the "next level." More bullshit and wishful thinking!

Some give up at this stage: to them it is all a crock of shit. Others ended up in such a mess that put them into so much spiritual pain they could not give up and constantly have sought remedy for the problem and pain of the accessed higher level case and have sought to recover that wonderful ascended to experience to the extreme that they ended up becoming "ascension experience addicts" . . . I did.

However, there is good news.

Alan Walter solved this situation. He wrote of it here on ESMB.

For those interested, I have created a group that is practicing Alan's materials. I coach the members for free and help rescue guys out of the mess of Hubbard's lies.

Here's the link: http://knowledgism-practice-group.org

RogerB

 

[arcxcauseblows]

agree with hubbard, it's his road or the highway, period

hubbard can explain how you'll get godlike powers, they call that source, ksw, but when you actually expect that they call it your hidden standard and you either drop it, or you get eventually sent through qual and ethics where you drop it, get yelled at, humiliated, punished or kicked out, they are not compatible other religions, with honesty or doubt, it's faith, if you can't muster faith then they'll accept lies and delusion

ironically and legally, by definition of their contracts, the processes and emeter do nothing, and hubbard didn't promise any results, but that's in the fine print of course not any of the advertisements

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

..

--snipped--

The fact is, the posited state of Clear is actually a bit of stupidity and marketing bullshit by a fraudster . . .

I respectfully will have to disagree with you on that. Because, in my decades of knowing or being around Scientologists, I did in fact meet real CLEARS.

They were quite obviously and provably CLEAR, but as Ron stated, only CLEAR on the 1st Dynamic. As stellar, brilliantly happy & spectacularly able as these CLEARS were, they nonetheless would (under certain very specific and limited instances) not be able to use nor demonstrate any of their CLEAR abilities.

In fact, during those anomalous and rare circumstances, they would typically become very much at-effect, degraded and morose. The resolution of their case and return of their CLEAR abilities was able to routinely be re-established, rehabilitated and restored when they simply avoided the following restimulating scenarios:

* Being around other people. Example: A CLEAR could be in a brilliantly advanced spiritual state one moment but as soon as someone enters the room, they promptly cave in. (WHY: Because they are CLEAR on the 1st Dynamic and someone entering the room introduces the 3rd Dynamic).

* Being in or around the MEST universe. Example: A CLEAR is one day regaling other similarly spiritually advanced beings with wholetrack stories of OT derring-do. However, in their exhilaration while traversing the theta unit, they unknowing drift into some part of the physical universe and promptly cave in. (WHY: Because they are CLEAR on the 1st Dynamic and the physical universe is comprised of MEST, which is the 6th Dynamic).​

I trust this information will be of great use and value to all those of you have wondered why your own advanced spiritual abilities sometimes inexplicably vanish and you feel or act all mental.

 

[Free Being Me]

Renegade,

That is a very intelligent and appropriate post you opened this thread with.

I find there are several answers to it.

[HIGHLIGHT]First of all, one should not invalidate any gains one actually had doing any spiritual enlightenment or enhancement or advancement tech . . .[/HIGHLIGHT]

However, the line-up of Hubbard's "supposed to be's" as expressed on the Grade Chart are absolute fiction and bullshit. "Clear" as stated and defined, being the beginning of the bullshit. As a very old-timer, I can vouch for knowing , umm, what is it? four or is it five, maybe even six different announced "states of Clear" that . . . from memory, in my personal history of what he promoted, went something like this. "Clear" absolute, total and wonderful (per DMSMH) 1950. Theta Clear (about 1952), Cleared Theta Clear, 1st Goal Clear (1962-3), "Real Clear" (the real deal clear 1967?), Dianetic Clear (1969-70) then "Natural Clear ??? . . . Have I missed one?? . . . Umm, yes, "Invalidated Clear" And I think he also had a "Cleared OT" or some other nonsense in there

The fact is, the posited state of Clear is actually a bit of stupidity and marketing bullshit by a fraudster . . . but, that does not negate nor invalidate the actual gains obtained in the exercise or using by the tech . . . it is just that the alluded to, posited state Being promoted by Hubbard as the outcome to accomplish was bullshit.

Ask any honest "Clear": "Clear of what?"

Truthfully, none ever got clear of or erased their purported "reactive mind." [HIGHLIGHT]Though, they should not invalidate the gains they did get, and the freedom from the areas or issues of case they did obtain.[/HIGHLIGHT]

It is also true regarding all of the posited and claimed to be "OT States." They are bullshit marketing gimicks . . . though this does not invalidate any gains obtained from doing the levels, it does state that the promoted outcome as claimed would be by Hubbard IS bullshit.

As Alan Walter so rightly demonstrated, Scientology (and Dianetics) was fraught with the phenomena he recognized as the "Ascension Crash and Burn."

The problem being that the PC (and some students) had a colossal win and ascend UP out of the case they were in . . . but the UP was into the next level of case above them that has yet to be correctly handled and, when enlivened by the person using their "new" ascended to power, that higher level of case, force, charge and mass, kicks them in the teeth.

I can't tell you the number of times I've heard the statement told to folks (and me) after we'd finished a level and yet felt something was unhandled that it would be handled on the "next level." More bullshit and wishful thinking!

Some give up at this stage: to them it is all a crock of shit. Others ended up in such a mess that put them into so much spiritual pain they could not give up and constantly have sought remedy for the problem and pain of the accessed higher level case and have sought to recover that wonderful ascended to experience to the extreme that they ended up becoming "ascension experience addicts" . . . I did.

[HIGHLIGHT]However, there is good news.[/HIGHLIGHT]

Alan Walter solved this situation. He wrote of it here on ESMB.

For those interested, [HIGHLIGHT]I have created a group[/HIGHLIGHT] that is practicing Alan's materials. I coach the members for free and help rescue guys out of the mess of Hubbard's lies.

Here's the link: http://knowledgism-practice-group.org

RogerB

Let me get this straight. Elcon was full of shit (I agree) but ... one shouldn't invalidate gains and the tehk (paraphrased), you mentioned that twice. Why? Your own post goes into detail as you see it why gains and the tehk are tripe and downright harmful. Sounds like a not so subtle contradiction blatantly telling people not to utilize critical thinking beyond a certain point because you're offering more of what never worked as advertised in the first place.

Oh, what a juggling act a Guru performs telling people what can't be questioned.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

There's little wonder the cult (cofs) is still managing to survive when even those who long ago left (or were booted out) are still hanging on tightly to their personal "glory years" from decades ago and are still repeatedly daring to try and ram their egotistical, deluded crap down the throats of people currently in the process of releasing themselves from it all and by doing so effectively supporting the premise that the cofs is built upon (spiritual growth resulting in super powerful, super able beings).

Knowlegism is just scientology rejigged.

To use one of your own delightful expressions Roger "put a sock in it".

 

[DeeAnna]

"It's all a crock of shit"

 

[Jump]

"It's all a crock of shit"

Hey wait up, I'm sure I saw a few perfectly good corn kernels and some diced carrot in there...

 

[gbuck]

The belief that I had a case led me up many avenues of stupidity.The belief that my case also had a status that could be improved ( by the experts )
simply compounded the idiocy.
But we are capable of believing almost anything if it appears to suits our needs.
The belief in case status, results inevitably, in the need to improve that case.
The strangest, craziest thing, is that we believe that we are separate from our case and from there proceed to improve the status of our case.
Seriously!
The doubt shouldn't be about the status of our case but should be about the reality of having a case at all.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Hey wait up, I'm sure I saw a few perfectly good corn kernels and some diced carrot in there...

reminds me of The Big Yin's observation that every time someone throws up there are diced carrots in it. He figured that there must be people who go around tormenting drunks by throwing handfuls of diced carrots in the puke...

 

[Soul of Ginnungagab]

Truth Finding in a Spiritual Sense

I honestly believe that every person who "attests" knows (deep down) that they are very much the same at core level even as they accept the certificate, but they may choose not to think about it.

... snipped ...

I think that a very important point of processing is that you know you are the same at core level, kind of connecting up to yourself NOT disconnecting from your knowingness. If you make a type of processing (can be many types of processing, auditing, yoga, art, music, you name it) where you connect up to your inner truth or who you actually are or what you deep within your self know, then you are doing very well.

One of the very weird things I encountered when I was in the Sea Org was when I was assigned a very low condition and supposed to find my answers to the questions "find out where you are", "find out that you are" and "find out who you really are". Wow! Those questions kind of summarize the whole of the Scientology bridge. Answer those question and you have graduated on the bridge apart from the training side of the bridge. Maybe I am excagurating here or maybe it actually makes sense.

Anyway, people are spending years and fortunes on the bridge, and there I was sitting with a piece of paper and a pencil expected more or less to be able to make it in the matter of an afternoon or two. A rather unrealistic task. I did the very best I could regarding those question, it was a challenging and exciting task, and I wrote some quite philosophical (and great in my own opinion) essays on the themes and passed them to the ethics officer and got a pass.

Usually people spend years on finding out such matters whether they are doing it via scientology or via some other way. Which way usually depends on which way rings a bell for them, and that can be very different for different people. There are many levels of truth spiritual speaking and those questions above can get you going if they inspire you. But there can certainly be many other aspects that would get you going.

In scientologeese there is a saying "the thetan basically knows". In normal language that could be tranlated into something in the direction of "deep within yourself you know". By the way that also means that you know when you do not know!!!. It is a matter about awareness, becoming more aware of deep matters of life. Raising awareness is an important aspect of processing.


***

 

[Gib]

Recently, I had a conversation with a now out scn. The subject of doubting case levels came up but no one could talk about that while still in.
I am curious if anyone had these personal thoughts too. At the time you would get in big ethics trouble for false attesting.

One scn I knew did doubt and voice their Clear status after the "buzz" wore off and life became difficult again and no new abilities were evident.

I saw one OT 8 who was pretty dynamic right after completing the level, who became introverted after having new OT 8 re-released as if s/he was a fake all that previous time.

One OT 7 was so "happy" after s/he was told was not clear and said it "All made sense now." This OT 7 must have had these doubting thoughts but never said anything previously.

Another OT 7 used to get baffled at people lower on the bridge who made more money, exhibited talent or more ability than s/he had.

actually, I wasn't fully convinced I had a case. I never ran an "engram" where I fully remembered or recalled everything in a moment of unconsciousness, never heard words or saw images. I had about 200 hours of Dianetics auditing and lots of scientology auditing.

Also, I never saw images of past life. I hoped they would pop up in the auditing I had, with certainty, but it never happened. I gave it a shot, participated, was fully willing for it to happen, but nothing happened, I never broke into the unconsciousness world.

 

[Gib]

I have never seen a change in a single person apart from one man that could hardly speak to anyone socially (due to extreme shyness) ... it took around 3 years but he eventually became able to have a quiet chat 'one on one' and that was a huge thing for him. He was always a beautiful soul though. Being announced as a completion for the basic courses he did was painful to watch, it was very difficult for him to stand in front of about 20 people and speak a few words, but he did it and I was very proud of him.

Warren Buffet learned Dale Carnegie to handle this fear of speaking in front of "crowds"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/carmine...red-their-terrifying-fear-of-public-speaking/

Much cheaper than scientology, LOL

oh, you say, you can't speak in front of a group of people, scientology can handle that. LOL

Let's do a survey. LOL

 

[hummingbird]

I was an auditor. I had no case.

Which made me wonder at times. If you could just "have no case," then what was the point of the grades, the levels, the rundowns, the money? Just "have no case." Simple.

 

[Gizmo]

Renegade,

That is a very intelligent and appropriate post you opened this thread with.

I find there are several answers to it.

First of all, one should not invalidate any gains one actually had doing any spiritual enlightenment or enhancement or advancement tech . . .

However, the line-up of Hubbard's "supposed to be's" as expressed on the Grade Chart are absolute fiction and bullshit. "Clear" as stated and defined, being the beginning of the bullshit. As a very old-timer, I can vouch for knowing , umm, what is it? four or is it five, maybe even six different announced "states of Clear" that . . . from memory, in my personal history of what he promoted, went something like this. "Clear" absolute, total and wonderful (per DMSMH) 1950. Theta Clear (about 1952), Cleared Theta Clear, 1st Goal Clear (1962-3), "Real Clear" (the real deal clear 1967?), Dianetic Clear (1969-70) then "Natural Clear ??? . . . Have I missed one?? . . . Umm, yes, "Invalidated Clear" And I think he also had a "Cleared OT" or some other nonsense in there

The fact is, the posited state of Clear is actually a bit of stupidity and marketing bullshit by a fraudster . . . but, that does not negate nor invalidate the actual gains obtained in the exercise or using by the tech . . . it is just that the alluded to, posited state Being promoted by Hubbard as the outcome to accomplish was bullshit.

Ask any honest "Clear": "Clear of what?"

Truthfully, none ever got clear of or erased their purported "reactive mind." Though, they should not invalidate the gains they did get, and the freedom from the areas or issues of case they did obtain.

It is also true regarding all of the posited and claimed to be "OT States." They are bullshit marketing gimicks . . . though this does not invalidate any gains obtained from doing the levels, it does state that the promoted outcome as claimed would be by Hubbard IS bullshit.

As Alan Walter so rightly demonstrated, Scientology (and Dianetics) was fraught with the phenomena he recognized as the "Ascension Crash and Burn."

The problem being that the PC (and some students) had a colossal win and ascend UP out of the case they were in . . . but the UP was into the next level of case above them that has yet to be correctly handled and, when enlivened by the person using their "new" ascended to power, that higher level of case, force, charge and mass, kicks them in the teeth.

I can't tell you the number of times I've heard the statement told to folks (and me) after we'd finished a level and yet felt something was unhandled that it would be handled on the "next level." More bullshit and wishful thinking!

Some give up at this stage: to them it is all a crock of shit. Others ended up in such a mess that put them into so much spiritual pain they could not give up and constantly have sought remedy for the problem and pain of the accessed higher level case and have sought to recover that wonderful ascended to experience to the extreme that they ended up becoming "ascension experience addicts" . . . I did.

However, there is good news.

Alan Walter solved this situation. He wrote of it here on ESMB.

For those interested, I have created a group that is practicing Alan's materials. I coach the members for free and help rescue guys out of the mess of Hubbard's lies.

Here's the link: http://knowledgism-practice-group.org

RogerB

The way to " solve the situation " pure & simple is to get away from scientology & all it's trappings.

People keep sifting through tons of scientology shit looking for some gem to save , what, the world ?

There are things that really do really help people, quickly & inexpensively that have nothing to do with Hubbards little cult.

I'm saddened to see good people get mired in the cult of scientology, be unable to put it down, walk away, & do something worthwhile with their life rather than continue to piss it away on scientology.

But, what the fuck, everybody gets to make their own choice - even if it is the slow suicide of their own soul ( aka belief in scientology or even weirder variations of it called the FZ { FZ = really really Fucked Zone ! }).

 

[Gizmo]

BTW, this invalidate shit.

People can spew all they want that we should not only listen to someone spew utter insanity but applaud it ?

Oh HELL NO !

How dare I not act like I support imaginary bullshit " OT WINs " like changing the course of a hurricane so it doesn't hit Clearwater ( just goes inland elsewhere & does billions of $$ of damage )

Should I have cheered Hitler in his rise to power ? Should I have clapped for Charlie Manson gathering his merry iittle crew of mass murderers ?

This " don't evaluate or invalidate " has the serious liability of what so much of Hubbard spewed in that it COMPLETELY LACKED ANY COMMON SENSE.

And, dear God, the people who come on ESMB & spew the virtues of this that or the other pieces of scientology seem to also suffer that fatal flaw of lacking any common sense , , , , , , , but, WTF does one expect when they follow a bat shit crazy ( and that is being kind ) person ?

 

[cleared cannibal]

BTW, this invalidate shit.

People can spew all they want that we should not only listen to someone spew utter insanity but applaud it ?

Oh HELL NO !

How dare I not act like I support imaginary bullshit " OT WINs " like changing the course of a hurricane so it doesn't hit Clearwater ( just goes inland elsewhere & does billions of && of damage )

Should I have cheered Hitler in his rise to power ? Should I have clapped for Charlie Manson gathering his merry iittle crew of mass murderers ?

This " don't evaluate or invalidate " has the serious liability of what so much of Hubbard spewed in that it COMPLETELY LACKED ANY COMMON SENSE.

And, dear God, the people who come on ESMB & spew the virtues of this that or the other pieces of scientology seem to also suffer that fatal flaw of lacking any common sense , , , , , , , but, WTF does one expect when they follow a bat shit crazy ( and that is being kind ) person ?

I have come to realize the whole set up is an evaluation. If not you would be the one telling the CS that you are done and need to go to the examiner.

 

[Gizmo]

I have come to realize the whole set up is an evaluation. If not you would be the one telling the CS that you are done and need to go to the examiner.

Yes, it only takes ONE step back & ONE deep breath to see the insanity of scientology.

But, it remains that one single step - for whatever reason - some will never be able to take.

Uh, do what with people who chose to doom themselves ?

 

[Knows]

Remember on the lower end of the Bridge..that cognition...I think after Straightwire...the Cog is:

"Knows he won't get any worse"....

Well, I did get worse and saw others get worse....the Oat Teas were the worst...shut down, could not talk, arrogant and asshole-ish.

Amazing that I could not use that "confront and shatter suppression" tek on Scientology itself...but the tek keeps one from using the tek on itself...

I was getting worse...making lots of mistakes and was only connected to Scientology and Scientologist's...

Amazing how the "thought stopping" tek does work...

Don't look
Don't allow anyone to talk to you about anything negative in Scientology
Don't think for yourself
THAT is Scientology ^^^