Withholds, relationships and self-inflicted mind control

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Orglodyte 2, Mar 5, 2018.

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  1. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    I would agree, however, I would say that the most egregious examples of that are in the official organization/s. Each one of us weighs the consequences against the benefits, as a general rule. I did myself for 10 years until the violations of my own personal ethics were too painful. Then I made the decision to get the fk out.
  2. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    Just one I can think of off the top of my head is the policy on "using policy to stop". Maybe you can find that one. Or "forcing the PC"
  3. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    HCOBs and PLs trump all the others.
  4. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    Where did I say that????
  5. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    What you speak of is a 2 way street.
  6. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    The people who can tell you "You're declared!" or "You need to pay for two intensives of sec checking right now!", AND MAKE IT STICK, trump all the policy you care to name.
  7. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    I'm not quoting you, I'm asking a question. You should know that's different. Can you answer the question? Or not?
  8. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    That does not answer the question. Where, in Scientology dogma, is non-compliance to Hubbard's HCOBs and PLs allowed?

    Hint: Nowhere. This means that Scientology dogma is all about CONTROL with Sec-Checks, Ethics conditions, suppressive declares and RPF to enforce it. No Scientologist is allowed to violate HCOBs, PLs, or anything else the "church" decides to order. That, by definition, is oppression.

    And that kind of CONTROL and oppression inevitably leads to the kind of abuse we see all the time in the SO.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  9. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    Well no duh, but that aint Scientology. that is using policy to stop and that is off policy. "using policy to stop"
  10. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    "Using policy to stop" You are just talking about people bullying people using "policy". That is off policy. Control is a good thing. Bad things can happen in the name of control. The way to hell is paved with the best of intentions. You on the other hand are just spreading shit.
  11. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    relativism (rĕlˈə-tĭ-vĭzˌəm)►
    Philosophy A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them.
  12. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Here's some inspiration for you from a key PL.

    From the 12 February 1967 Policy Letter 'Admin Know-How, the Responsibility of Leaders', a.k.a. The Bolivar Policy Letter:

    [The power asks] 'What are those dead bodies doing at the door'. And if you [the subordinate] are clever, you never let it be known HE [the power] killed them - that weakens you and also hurts the power source. 'Well, boss about all those dead bodies, nobody at all will suppose you did it. She over there, those pink legs sticking out, didn't like me'. 'Well', he'll say if he really is a power, 'Why are you bothering me with it if it's done and you did it. Where's my blue ink?...

    ...always push power in the direction of anyone on whose power you depend. It may be more money for the power, or more ease, or a snarling defense of the power to the critic, or even the dull thud of one of his enemies in the dark, or the glorious blaze of a whole enemy camp as a birthday surprise...

    ...Real powers are developed by tight conspiracies of this kind... and if they are right and also manage their man [the power] and keep him from collapsing from overwork, bad temper or bad data, a kind of juggernaut builds up."


    There is and always was a Hidden Data Line.​

    Don't be a chump for Scientology your whole life.​

  13. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    Well in that case, you are talking about having your own independent group, under the rules you describe, and calling it Scientology, while calling the organization which DM currently controls "not real Scientology". That's cool, as long as you are clear about what you are talking about.
  14. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Wow, your non-confront goes deep. I've already explained, in detail, how Hubbard's explicit policies and bulletins require all Scientologists to submit to Scientology control. I understand that you don't like this information and can't confront the reality of what it all means.

    I don't need to repeat all I've said. You won't face the reality and I'm bored.
  15. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    A thought provoking idea! LOL

    But, alas, I don't have such impure thoughts about Dr. Hubbard because his scientific research proved that he did not have any overts/withholds.

    I guess in all of human history that would make Ron the elite of the elite; one of three to be more exact. The only flawless beings were, therefore, Ron, Jesus and Buddha.

    Wait, Ron said that the other two messiahs had only reached Clear, so Ron is far and away superior to those low-level PCs. Ron kicks ass again!

    Wait, wait. . . Ron said Jesus was an implant and "there was no Christ ("man on the cross"). And Ron was Buddha, so that means that Ron is the only perfectly flawless being in the universe.

    Probably Christians will bitterly complain about this, and in all fairness to them, I will just note that Jesus did not have all the available resources and technological advances that gave Ron so many advantages. I am sure, Christians brothers and sisters, that Jesus would have possibly become just as OT as Dr. Hubbard--if in the year zero he had access to advanced technologies like chain lockers where small hysterical children could be locked up and terrorized for days.

    Jesus, was therefore unfortunately stuck with the OWs of not putting in ethics on others (e.g. imprisoning toddlers in dungeons) , so it's no wonder that he bogged down at Clear on his bridge. Ron warned us about the dangers of not moving through that non-interference zone up through OT III, so it's no wonder that Jesus ended up surrounded by unhandled SPs who crucified him.

    I feel pretty certain that Ron will let Jesus get on the Bridge, if Jesus isn't still dramatizing low-havingness and walking around in a shabby sheet without any cash reserves or charge cards.
  16. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    I always loved that theory, LOL.

    Having been in the SO, I can testify as an expert witness in the debunking of that mythological belief.

    The Sea Org is what grew from the seeds that L. Ron Hubbard engineered, planted and cultivated.

    The poison fruit of that tree was already in the DNA contained within the seeds that were developed in 1950-1986, while Ron the Botanist was in his lab.

    It is logically, metaphysically, genetically and physically IMPOSSIBLE for poisonous fruit to grow out of a seed that does not contain the blueprint for poisonous fruit. That is magical thinking (at best) or lame absurd propaganda lies (at worst).

    What grew is what was planted.

    The simplicity of it is so stunningly obvious that only a Scientologist could miss it.

    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  17. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    Yes I remember that bull shit well. I the summer of 82, the summer of madness, the Portland mission was turned into a nightmare using that as one of it's focuses but the top was the ED Alan Hollander and the mission holder Martin Samuels. I was on staff there. "crush" reg cycles and pts segregations with black arm bands, the small elite group at the top of the org pushing this hard and naming themselves "the Junta". Yes you can pervert anything to evil purpose and justify it . That was the first time I blew staff. We even had "de-dinging" sessions run by the C/S Diana Martelli. That's where at staff meetings we got to get off our "dings" (motivators, mostly verbal abuse by public) as a group. Pure out tech and destructive. That policy does have a good message but not like what I saw.
  18. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    Nice analogy.
  19. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    When was scientology EVER scientology?
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  20. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Your experience appears to be extremely limited on this topic. Your awareness, on the topic of Scientology, seems to be compartmentalized. Off hand, I don't have an easy remedy for that.

    A cold shower might help. :D

    Hubbard operated on certain patterns throughout the history of Scientology. He built Scientology on those patterns.

    "Pink legs" did not begin in 1982. It began in 1950. "Pink legs" does not have a good application.

    The people you cite from 1982 were attempting to mimic Hubbard. They knew how Hubbard operated and, as cult members, approved.

    You're still in the dark on how Hubbard operated.

    Hubbard operated on the same basis as did organized crime: ruthlessness and secrecy.

    Scientology is not an honest subject.

    You're going to have to poke your head out the Scientology cloud to see that.