Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Veda, Jun 12, 2014.

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  1. He-man

    He-man Troll under the bridge

    I don't think there's many of these to be honest.

    If you knew that Scientology was all about Sci Fi opera and defunct spiritual healing within a harsh cult I fail to see the attraction, apart from wanting some love bombing.
  2. Good twin

    Good twin Floater

    I was exposed to critical information. I was familiar with the Dead Agent packs on all the critical info.
    I was drilled on the "handle" step of the dissem drill.
    I liked being in a cult. I didn't want to believe the government or the media or any part of mainstream society.

    I know many exes say they weren't brainwashed. I was consensually brainwashed. There was no information outside the cult that was valuable or believable to me for many years. My bubble had to burst from within. Starting with the TC's Medal of Valor, then the release of the Basics, and realizing that my "right" to disconnect was being enforced on me.

    All those others facts took time to digest and evaluate. I'm still a work in progress.

  3. Balthasar

    Balthasar Patron Meritorious

    I knew Scientology was a cult. I mean that was freaking obvious even without consulting books in libraries. On top of that I rejected even my own religion since my childhood. Certainly I wouldn't embrace suddenly a belief system of a cult!

    However - Scientology offered a unique product cheap enough to give it a shoot (Comm Course). I wouldn't do or recommend doing anything in Scientology today because the subject has changed in a way that you are now only being ripped off, lied and threatened when you don't cough up the cash.

    Last time I leisured into an Org the Freewind Reg feeling very important with his ridiculous bluetooth earpiece completely freaked out when I told him that the basics course check sheets are not approved by LRH and so I wouldn't need to do them. I really enjoyed that one, Freewind dorkhead!

    Anyway, there is a huge difference between Scientology in the 70ies and Scientology now.

    I don't think one has to totally identify oneself with a groups belief system in order to co-exist within the group. Most Scientologists I knew were half in and half out most of the time. While I cannot speak for everybody, it seemed evident to me that Scientology would be an activity on the fringe of societies acceptance mainly because of the religious and guru flavour coming with it.

    So people took, just like myself, a junk of Scientology and digested the part. Then took another piece but staying alert. Reach and withdraw, not taking too much at once, always staying in control. Such careful approach seemed appropriate to me and I would have assumed that most people had seen it the same way.

    I mean, you try things out - carefully and moderate. You wouldn't completely stone yourself with dope the first time someone offers you a batch, would you? Scientology is like a drug. Too much can be harmful for health and wallet.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  4. chipgallo

    chipgallo Patron Meritorious

    This from the site:

    Cults will often target people who:

    • Are away from home for the first time
    • University and College Students
    • Have suffered a romantic breakup
    • Have had a death in the Family
    • Have personal problems
    • Are at a vulnerable point in their lives
    • Elderly people living alone

    I fell somewhere on this spectrum. My dad asked me if I was bothered by the criminal activity that Scientology was accused of. I remember telling him that the possibility of gains outweighed the risk. Of course now it has been shown that many if not most of the gains were overstated, to put it charitably. And others have commented that the internet was a game changer in understanding the true nature of the beast. I started reading USENET alt.religion.scientology around 1991 (there were some regional USENET groups even earlier but not all of them got broad distribution). By 1995 it was game over if the potential recruit had decent internet access and more so with all the information available today; a global Multiple Viewpoint Management System if you will with no excuse to remain deluded. I did not set foot in an org after 1991.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  5. Good twin

    Good twin Floater

    With all due respect, Balthasar, not my experience. :no:
  6. chipgallo

    chipgallo Patron Meritorious

    My bad, double post.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  7. Lesolee (Sith Lord)

    Lesolee (Sith Lord) Patron Meritorious

    Ah well, that is the difference between being in the SO, being on staff, or being public.

    Public are free to come and go to a much greater degree. You escape the madness daily :happydance: (=me).

    Staff, especially foundation staff, probably have real-world jobs which keep them grounded. :duh:

    Sea Org are a special category of TRAPPED! :omg: (And doubly so for second generation SO).

    I could EASILY have joined up as SO - easily. I was fortunate enough to meet some spotty little twat of a CMO missionaire and that cooler my enthusiasm. Had I met more uptone SO members (like the Captains at AOSH & St Hill Fdn) I would really have been in trouble. :bigcry:
  8. Good twin

    Good twin Floater

    I was public and staff at various times over the thirty years I was in and never Sea Org. I (other than a few months here and there) always had a day job.

    I guess I just wanted to believe and I did. It had nothing to do with what is actually true. It was being part of a different reality.

    I could come and go as I pleased. I chose not to leave for over thirty years.
  9. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    I sure didn't know. I was a kid. (It's not the same for everyone. )
  10. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    I don't care about space opera; I find that no deterrent at all. What I care about are lies, fraud, and abuse.

    Also, yeah, I got love bombed, but I never ever asked for it or wanted it. They thought people wanted it, they do not know how to relate to ppl in a sincere or straight forward manner. The reasons for this as numerous, but one of those reasons is the all pervasive sales aspect.
  11. DoneDeal

    DoneDeal Patron Meritorious

  12. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    Yeah. Staff n such. Sure wasn't I.
  13. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    Funny you should mention that, because Robert De Ropp mentions levels of consciousness higher than the normal one which we can attain through inner work on ourselves, and which made a lot more sense to me at the time than the Scientology OT levels did (and still do). I think centauric consciousness is the first of them.

    De Ropp's autobiography, "The Warrior's Way", is well worth a read btw. He knew some quite remarkable people such as Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Aldous Huxley, Alan Watts and J G Bennett (also, Ken Kesey of "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" fame). He also has quite a lot to say about what the spiritual / occult scene was like in Europe before World War II, which is the time Ron Hubbard was starting to get his ideas from.
  14. La La Lou Lou

    La La Lou Lou Crusader

    I had heard some bad reports in my parent's newspapers. The same press wrote articles about all vicars raping choir boys, all these blacks coming over here stealing our girls and jobs, anyone wanting equal rights for women was a lesbian, how evil these long haired layabouts were with their foul drug taking and promiscuous sex, the world is about to end any moment due to scientists doing something they don't understand, and that all gay men should go and have a sex change. Of course I didn't listen to them.
  15. Lorna

    Lorna Patron

    Reading this thread I'm realizing I'm even rarer for never even knowing any of this. I had never heard about the abuse in the Sea Org, LRH's lies, Xenu... Nothing! And I joined in the internet era! :duh:

    I had seen one or two websites containing mild critisism and when I asked some church people I was told they were supporting the psychiatric industry and they put up those websites to bug Scientology as Scientology made them lose money. And I believed it!

    You probably think this is very naive and I should have known better and I agree, but still, I didn't know. I literally only came accross the weird and disturbing info about a month (perhaps already two) by clicking a recommended video on YouTube in which the church wasn't even embarrassed for making the interviewer's job as difficult as possible. And I kept looking and searching and it all got worse.

    Had I known these things everyone apparently already knows I would have NEVER joined!
  16. i snatched up warrior's way when it was published in 1980. it's a very good read. i recommend it for something to read on the beach this summer. The Master Game remains one of the most remarkable books i have ever read. i amazed at how solid it is. though not verbatim, i recall the entire contents of the book; not a scrap of fat in it; 100% red meat. total substance.

    i understand deropp's "drugs and the mind" is also pretty good but i've yet to come across it...
  17. Tom_Booth

    Tom_Booth Banned

    I think I've probably read everything ever written spoken or published in magazines and on the internet critical of Scientology from the 70's or so on. I thought the whole thing about Scientologists infiltrating government offices was pretty ballsy. As an anti-establishment type person, I more or less cheered them on.

    I felt that if Scientology was anything close to what it claimed, attacks against it would be inevitable, just as any purveyor of truth in history has been ridiculed, hunted down, jailed, stoned to death, nailed to a cross, beheaded etc. At least the Scientologists were not laying down, they were fighting back and I actually admired them for that.

    Bad things sometimes happen within any group despite the best of intentions. That bad things have happened within Scientology from time to time does not really reflect, in my mind, the truth or falsity of the teachings or basic philosophy. Some priests sodomizing young boys for example, doesn't tell me much one way or the other whether there is any truth or value in Christianity.

    In some ways, you might say that it is the X-Scientologists that mainly convinced me that there was nothing THAT terribly wrong with it. The X-Scientologists were all intelligent, free thinking, often successful, bright, articulate and strong enough to think for themselves and BE x-scientologists. Not at all your typical cult victim personalities, and more often than not they had quite GOOD things to say about their experience in Scientology. The main gripes more often than not seemed to revolve around management. The organization or the activities of some particular individuals which were perceived as "out-points" that were not being addressed properly. In other words, the general consensus of x-scientologists seemed to be that the "TECH" was good. That they were better and happier people in general because of it, but to put it quite frankly, they felt that Miscavige was a rather inept leader and this bad management was filtering down through the organization.

    So, I joined staff this past January. More or less with the idea that I could clean things up and get things back on track. There is, I think, actually a kernel of truth in Scientology, the continued existence of which is worth fighting for. The same kernel of truth that exists in every religion. At least Scientology professes a belief in "miracles". Few other religions really do any more these days. To me that is a rare and valuable commodity in itself. And I'm not sure there is anywhere else anyone can go where a stab has been made at making a science out of it. Scientology, to me, represents a scientific approach to working miracles. From the "miracle cures" of Dianetics to the "miraculous" OT abilities. There are religions that believe these things happened at some time in history but personally I've had a very hard time finding anybody anywhere today who not only believes but has experienced such things and can apply it.

    Maybe I'm crazy for believing the impossible, but at least hanging around in Scientology I'm not entirely alone or without some support in that belief.

    Maybe "belief" isn't really the right word. I've done "experiments" which seemed to result in "miracles". I was highly skeptical until I actually saw the results for myself. I'm not talking about Scientology particularly. The "experiments" were more along the lines of "Creative Visualization" or the "Law of Attraction" before I got directly involved in Scientology. Books I read and tried to apply with some success. As far as I know Scientologists are the only widespread organized group of people that are deeply into this sort of thing. So far, I've been enjoying the company, the association with like-minded people. The sense of purpose, the challenges and so forth.

    I think an awful lot of good people have left Scientology. Maybe for the wrong reasons. It might be better today if they had not given in and quit but fought it out and stood their ground. Perhaps in a day or a week or a year I'll be declared an SP. IMO that would be a big mistake. It wouldn't hurt me or alter the course of my life much but it would hurt scientology as there would be one less person "on the inside" trying to make things better.
  18. Tom, you do realize that your posting here on ESMB is considered a crime (outethics) by the Cult of COS? :ohmy: :no:

    As for this: "I've done "experiments" which seemed to result in "miracles". I was highly skeptical until I actually saw the results for myself. I'm not talking about Scientology particularly. The "experiments" were more along the lines of "Creative Visualization" or the "Law of Attraction" before I got directly involved in Scientology. Books I read and tried to apply with some success. As far as I know Scientologists are the only widespread organized group of people that are deeply into this sort of thing."

    You couldn't be more wrong about this...ANY "New Thought" Church teaches these kinds of things as a core practice...even to little kids in Sunday School...and ALL OF THEM pre-date Scientology and COS. The movement had it's roots in the transcendentalism of the early 1800's.

    There are lots of like minded people in the world who share your desire to make the world a better place, and they do work together mostly in harmony to accomplish good things in the world, without supporting and enabling the proven and factual crimes and abuses of the Cult of COS!

    :thumbsup: Do a little research online and learn more about a subject which obviously resonates with you:


    "The New Thought movement is a spiritual movement, sometimes classed as a Christian denomination, which developed in the United States in the 19th century, following the teachings of Phineas Quimby (and others). The three major organizations within New Thought movement today are Religious Science, Unity Church and the Church of Divine Science, with an estimated number of some 150,000 adherents in the United States between them.There are numerous smaller groups, most of which are incorporated in the International New Thought Alliance..."

    Here's some info on the history of the movement:
    "In addition to New Thought, Christian Science, transcendental meditation, theosophy, and other movements were born from similar interests, all in the late 18th and early 19th century. Early New Thought leaders were influenced by Calvinistic belief in the absolute sovereignty of God; John Locke's belief that anything that existed in the mind that could be expressed through words; and the transcendentalist belief that ideal spirituality "transcends" the physical and is realized only through individual intuition, instead of through religion."

    This further explains the modern mindset:

    There's lots more all about it! :thumbsup:

    Some of these churches and organizations are:

    I'll bet there is one near you. :) Or, you could check them out online.

    Here's a "New Thought" teacher and thought leader:

    Here's another:

    Okay, I'll stop now...Sorry everyone, but it's a teachable know how I am with those! :blush:
  19. [​IMG]
    Read it when I was still in school, merely a pup. :thumbsup:

    Would like to re-read The Warrior's Way! :yes:
  20. Purple Rain

    Purple Rain Crusader

    Come back here when they've taken your family, your friends, your money, your career and years of your life. I can't say I'll cry for you. I feel more sorry for the other gullible people you're ripping off. I'll be going, yeah, Karma's a bitch and you fucked her up the arse.

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