Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Veda, Jun 12, 2014.

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  1. Dean Blair

    Dean Blair Silver Meritorious Patron

    I had first heard of Scientology in about 1968. It was not very well known in that era. There was one critical book out that I became aware of in about 1969 and that was Paulette Cooper's book "The Scandal of Scientology". I was curious about it but was told by my new Scientology friends and staff members to not even think about reading it because 1. It was entheta and contained nothing but lies. 2. It contained material from Oat Tee level 3 and if you were exposed to it then you could not ever be audited by anyone other than an Oat Tee 3 auditor and it would wreck your case. I was interested as I said but I didn't want to wreck my case and so I never read it until years later after I had left the cult.
  2. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    That opening post by Veda, is again an on-the-ball piece by him.

    I can't see what anyone can disagree with in it . . . though I can see what they might not like it for. Ruff . . . as Veda says, (truth) is embarrassing.

    But note, he is specifically referring to the period and events of when Scn was being lampooned and its idiocies were being exposed and yet, being aware of and informed of the idiocies, some still joined.

    That is, at least, imprudent . . .

    Hell, even after Hubbard's fraudulent claim of the PhD was exposed, even after his war record and other claims of accomplishment in life had been exposed in the press and elsewhere . . . some who were aware of all this still joined!

    I remember "in the day" when it was a point of Scn brilliance that attacks and exposure Scn and Hubbard's lies in the press were being claimed as what was bringing new people in!!!

    The song was that because of the exposure of falsehoods and bad press, folks were actually coming in!

    Wow! Well, I do know of one person who personally claims it to have been so for him: but that is it. I wonder how he feels about his choices now:duh:

    Scientologists unfortunately delude and lie to themselves and others as standard operating procedure.

    Joining a cult after learning of its lies, falsehoods and dangers is way out stupid . . . Veda, it's more than embarrassing!

  3. everfree

    everfree Patron Meritorious

    When I first got in in 1990, since there was no internet I went to the library and looked up microfiched news articles about Scientology, including Nibs interview, a Forbes interview, and others.

    I knew, and I still joined. Why? A few reasons.

    First, the articles seemed over the top, and they were somewhat old. I actually brought them up at the mission I first got started at, and they "handled" me. They told me that "fair game" doesn't exits, and that there is no more overboarding, that "real scientologists" had taken over the church and things were a lot better now. I believed them.

    But this is what really got me: they told me if there is something I didn't like in Scientology, that I should take responsibility for it and fix it because Scientology is the "only game where everyone wins". I was so starry eyed idealistic, that sounded good too.

    For one thing, I knew up front that not paying the staff was a crappy way to run a business (though due to more CofS/Miscavige lies, I thought my mission was the only one that was small and poor, it took me years to figure out that the staff were mostly destitute almost everywhere within CofS and that there was no desire to change that). You can't just ignore the basic needs of your workers and hope to have long term sustainability. So I decided to fix it, by working really really hard and making things better so the staff got paid (among other things).

    That turned out to be a fools errand based on lies. Unfortunately, what I hadn't learned yet but understand now about "fixing things from within" is that you NEVER "fix things from within" when you are the one who is being exploited. You stop them from hurting you, and if any "fixing" is needed you fix from outside so they can no longer hurt you. Lesson learned.
  4. Wants2Talk

    Wants2Talk Silver Meritorious Patron

    Yes I did. Of course I couldn't find an Orgone box.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014
  5. hard to believe this comes from someone who was declared eleven times...

    to me rog, things like a false army record etc are just no big thing. i'm interested in the ideas and techniques

    and i've found these to be so good i wish i could recommend academy training

    but since that is tantamount to recommending a horny guy get a BJ from a cannibal i ain't gonna do it
  6. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Well CB, that's fair comment . . .

    I am still chewing on this subject . . . but in actuality, when I look back at the days in London of the late '60's early '70's, I see volumes of information exposing the lies and the con of Hubbard and his claims and tech, but more importantly, the dangers of Scn, and some folks still came in.

    Certainly, some were "handled" by friends who were already in and so, the exposure of Hubbs and the con was able to be moved aside by what you say . . . getting them to look at "the ideas and the techniques" . . .

    But some folks, it seems were actually brought in by the bad press rap :omg:

    Of course, guys like me who got in before the truth came out, and who felt they had made gains and thus believed what they would/could gain in the future . . . forgave Hubbs his self-puffery lies and also believed his "tech" proposition that the evil Psychs were behind all the attacks. :melodramatic:

    Tech delivery in the early days was very different to what it developed into in the late '70's and beyond. In the early days we did win in the academy . . . today it is a destructive torture chamber!!!

  7. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    Good call. I've barely heard of it, but I do know that De Ropp was pro-drugs and very opposed to the government's attempts to prosecute people for using them. He said it was because legislators and law enforcers were high on somatotonia (he thought St Paul in the Bible was too) and hence afraid of their inner worlds - could be true.
  8. i don't know that he was exactly "pro-drug". he did affirm that drugs could open vistas on greater awareness but he was quite firm that this was entering through a thieves gate; only very sober work would get the true goods

    i do affirm this myself as well...

    the best results i've ever had, the highest forms of spiritual experience were always stone cold sober
  9. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    It might be more precise, in some cases, that the person had heard claims about CofS and still joined. That doesn't mean that they truly knew that there were problems and abuses.

    And, as I mentioned before, some of us hadn't even heard anything. Like Scn kids.
  10. yeah...

    the bad press closed the deal for me

    when i was considering taking the comm course in early '71 i went and spent two full days hitting the stacks reading everything i could find back to 1953. it just didn't match what i could see with my own eyes. the bad press brought in THE BEST PEOPLE WHO CAME IN rog. the people who could see differences and simiklarities and choose for themselves.

    and i didn't see a con. the services were training and auditing. they had price tags. if you purchased a service and were dissatisfied you got your money back promptly upon doing a sensible checklist. the discipline was stringent and rigorous but entirely sensible

    i got to history of man shortly after the HAS course and thought it one of the strangest books i ever read but it's author's poetic liscence was in good order

    and it still is...

    for every potential poison in the policy there was a clear antidote

    i was impressed then and i'm still impressed

    nor are there any real horror stories from the early days


    sara northrup?

    she was a gal. he was a guy. they had a row. big deal.

    i've gone over EVERYTHING from the early years


    shit happened

    guess what rog...


    big fukkin' deal

    of course now it SUCKS!!!

    net nannies?

    ummm, has anyone ever read dianetics the modern science of mental health? has anyone ever been introduced to the concept of "a held down seven"? if anyone would like to consult a student of the subject who has also earned a ph.d. in Duh that person will verify dianetics is for the removal of "held down sevens" not their installation

    and on and on and and on and on...

    george bernard shaw once said "christianity is a marvelous idea! it's a shame no one has ever tried it." i'm sure he'd say the same of dianetics

    yeah, i know, you still are chewing on the subject which makes you one of my most cherished people on the board. and it's also the reason i haven't paid much attention to you. you don't need my attention

    now then, while i've been chewing on it i've also been DOING!!! and i had one of my very most intense out-of-body experiences ever one night in october of 2003 in la crosse wisconsin and i have never spoken a word of it. so, just for you roger b, in my next hour slot i'm going to give you something from the subject you might see fit to chew upon...

    you're in new york aren't you?
  11. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader


    Yep, I'm in NYC. in the "West Village."

    By the way I love your pugnacious sense of humour (I even think you deserve the proper English, English spelling of it).

    I await your "something to chew on" . . .


  12. well some bacground until tommorrow...

    we go back with the redsox in my family; my grandfather saw babe ruth in redsox flannels at fenway in 1918. i became a fan at the age of twelve in 1962. they'd been bums for a while and got worse until "the impossible dream" year of 1967. after i left staff and was in new york starting to discover ways of manifesting "OT" phenomena i pressed my new found capabilities on 1975 sox team. that series is cosidered by many to the best ever played and carlton fisk's 12th inning homerun in game six still gets replayed...

    but '75 turned into a profound nightmare for me

    i was in boston and philly for that great '78 season...

    then in the spring of 1986 i went to a game at the kingdome in seattle against the tigers and scouted the players. my best pal billy martin worked for dan miller a minority owner of the redsox. i tabbed two players. silently. spoke not a word. henderson and calderon...


    hasta manana...
  13. Wants2Talk

    Wants2Talk Silver Meritorious Patron

    Wasn't there some sort of affirmation in HYMN OF ASIA that said get your best to defame me - it will only strengthen the name of Mattaiya - or some such.
  14. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    :unsure: Hey , trying to explain why people join with a few sound bytes is like like trying to solve the drug problem by just saying no; it's a grossly oversimplified (and unworkable) answer to a complex issue. Cults and totalistic groups grow and survive due to a wide number of social and individual vulnerabilities. I think we generally have virtually no accurate education about hypnosis , mind control, group manipulation and critical thinking taught to us in most educational settings and we don't look for it on our own either . We assume a lot of things about our minds being immune or resistant to forces and techniques we are misinformed of . To me a victim of deception should not be blamed and the vast majority of scientologists were fooled by a system so complex and outlandish as to seem like 1984 on acid . The truth is so absurd it sounds like a hodgepodge of conspiracy theories. I think blaming yourself or other dupes(sorry) is doing what scientology programs us to do:blame ourselves for failures and attribute any gains or success to LRH. I don't want to follow that program anymore.
  15. La La Lou Lou

    La La Lou Lou Crusader

    Thanks mockingbird, and welcome, you put that very well I'm looking forward to reading a lot more. :yes:
  16. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    I agree, as I have never learned about this stuff in my upbringing from the 1960's on forward.

    But I am now learning about it, and it's interesting Hubbard never taught Rhetoric yet he was educated in it.

  17. the white sox picked up calderon who had a pretty good year staying among the leaders in doubles and The Olde Towne Team snatched hendu who sparked their run then pulled the chestnuts out of the fire down three games to one in the ALCS and trailing late in game five with a three run dinger off the tragic donnie moore. game six of the series i was in the parking lot outside shea stadium when my main man drove one into darkness in the top of the tenth...

    how sweet it was...

    until bill bleeping buckner muffed a routine grounder

    funny thing...

    if you recall the cheesy SF series "lost in space" from the sixties there was an episode where there were on a planet with shape-changing aliens and they encounter an earthling. to find out if he's real or an alien changling they ask him "who won the 1986 World Series?" and they knew he was real when he said "the boston red sox"

    so, anyway, it was back to the drawing board...

    we finally nailed a crown with the 14 point underdog pats of 2001-2. i got tales to tell about that, flying to SF after the regular season so i could neutralize the wizard i worked with on the 49ers during the eighties. heeheehee i pulled off a nifty little trick in his pub during "the snow bowl" with the raiders. as soon as the super bowl was a done deal i started calculating how to parlay those energies into a WS for the sox...

    i thought we would nail it in '03 and said so straight up all year long. i left seattle for boston during the ALCS in a '72 lincoln with a huge mill, 470 cubes or something like that. wound that puppy up to 110 in the montana night without even putting the pedal all the way down and it was still acelerating when i backed off it. i was driving through wisconsin during game seven listening on the radio and stopped at a pub to munch out, have a brew and eyeball a couple innings and got to see grady little famously fail to call for a fresh arm in the seventh. i left the bar and drove half a mile to a parking lot where i could sleep the night. i had a five inch color boobtube i could plug in to the cigarette lighter and i propped it on the steering wheel then in the top of the eleventh...

    of course i was dogged out from two and a half days on the road. i closed my eyes...

    and as soon as the eyes were closed i was standing at home plate in the batter's box in a strong healthy young body with a bat cocked over my right shoulder. there was nothing the least bit dreamlike about it; solid physical reality, the glare of the arc lamps all around, the raucous murmur of the crowd in my ears, the pungent smell of sweat and dust, pine tar and leather in my nostrils and the pitch came in the horsehide gleaming white and i pulled the trigger on it and spanked it on a line 20-25 feet right of the foul pole 8-10 seats deep into the stands...

    so i opened my eyes back in lacrosse and watched the sox bat for a couple minutes and close my eyes again and THE SAME THING!

    absolute real time i'm standing in the batter's box and go yard, identical trajectory for the ball...

    i open my eyes, watch the sox get retired then after the commercials aaron boone hits the perfectly identical home run, same height, same speed, same location as i have just hit twice...

    yeah, that's one of my most intense oobe's. and hubbard's work is a very big factor in my spiritual development, i've done other things too...
  18. jee-yay-ziss...

    have all of you forgotten how it was?

    yeah, lots of people came in as recruits and most of them were out the door in three months or less


    i often heard people speaking of a sense of magic to how it happened just when it should have...

    that old saying of the warrior's way "when the student is ready the teacher will appear" seemed to be often in evidence

    as it was, as one might expect from such a weirdo as CB, very deeply so with me. there was a story i told of the time of frances farmer's death i've written up on this board
  19. Elronius of Marcabia

    Elronius of Marcabia Silver Meritorious Patron


    As a child of the 60's and a dabbler into the drug culture the same campaigns of disinformation
    about drugs tended to make people ignore the warnings since their own experiences did'nt match

    Now I quit the drug culture couple years before $cio and my friends looked at me funny for not wanting
    to get high, such is culture.

    Here's the ironic part Dianetics creates addicts of a different sort through release of the naturally
    occuring endocrine system you can get some awesome highs, I've walked out of session walking on air
    in a state of bliss that would make Heroin Junkies jealous:omg:

    It makes me laugh now to see just how similar the language is. floating needles, releases, key outs. blown out, etc etcetera

    The Purif seemed like a healthy enough program untill you realise that people having trouble with their
    cases is just about the imbalance in the system after pumping out all the juices they got and can't get
    high anymore. its called seratonin depletion and is the cause of depression.

    Gettem in that purif so they can get that old endocrine system pumping again, little running and sweating and few
    vitamins and processing begins to work again.

    I had an old friend way back in the day who took vitamins and worked out because it enhanced his high
    and whether drug enduced or Dianetically enduced same bio chemical process at work.

    yeah I joined in, and yes its embarrassing :duh: to admit falling for the con.

    Lessons learned, no more Magic Beans Jack :coolwink: keep the cow work the farm :thumbsup:
  20. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    The op is wrong because it overgeneralizes.

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