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Believing in delusions make them true?

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
And with all that training and auditing experience did you never see even one person get any real genuine benefit from it?

Were they all bullshitting all the time?


Because by the time I was that level of training I had seen genuine benefits enough to fill a thick book.

I don't deny that it's possible to get some benefit from scn, from doing TR's for example. But I don't think that proves the point that "reality is agreement," which is what is being discussed here. I saw some OT's who seemed to be intelligent, capable people, but never saw one who could directly affect physical reality in the slightest by changing his "agreement."

I think any benefit gained from scn is eventually overcome by all the BAD there is in scn. You in effect become PTS to scn itself and start to go down instead of up. You're fortunate if you bail out early.
 

George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
Rmack, the idea that we created reality by agreement was never new with Hubbard. He got it from the ancients in India or wherever, and he said so himself.

The"agreements" you make with other people in this present state of reality is only the tiniest shadow of a whim of a hint of the original agreements that you did subscribe to and participate in fully at the time the universe was created. Again, this is not Hubbard's invented idea. It has been around a long time.

What Hubbard did point out - and as far as I know this originated with himself - is that the apparent solidity and unresponsiveness of matter to your decisions at present is entirely due to the fact that you have been overwhelmed by it so often and so thoroughly that you, I, and all of us, are in complete apathy on the subject of doing something about the state of reality, and that (just in theory, mind you) this state can be changed by taking more and ever increasingly more responsibility for the fact of your own apathy on the subject.

Now, what I have written here above is just plain ordinary basic Scientology that we, in my Org, (well, not mine, but the Org where I was) expected every common or garden Scientologist to know these things. And they did.

Which makes me wonder why so many people on this board don't know it. What were you doing when you were involved in the CofS? Did you study the materials? read the books, listen to the lectures, do the training that was offered? You know - do what a Scio is supposed to do.

Or did you just pay money and wait for a ride to OT? Or - even worse - join the Sea Org and run around chasing butterflies with your time?


scientology is designed to cure what scientology creates.
In Indian beliefs, (now taken out of your original posting of this) in reference to creation of the physical universe, describe the creator as limitless and you and I as a part of that limitlessness, not as the creators ourselves. You have inferred the hubbard twist by stating, "the original agreements that you did subscribe to and participate in fully at the time the universe was created.", and then went on, as hubbard did so many times in his writing, to imply that statement as fact, and thus established, continued with the internal problem of mankind that needs auditing to resolve, apathy. hubbard took the existence of God out of the beliefs surrounding soul. hubbard made himself the only, answerable to, the only explorable in, self reliant being. That fathomless depth that we are only the tiniest shadow of a whim of a hint of, with hubbard's definition, became the thetan that hubbard proclaimed to be. To take responsibility for the fact of your own apathy on the subject of reality, via the techniques laid down by scientology, more and more so until you can change reality to reality? Can you arrive at a state that allows you to stare into the face of God, or does a thetan start doing something in your mirror?
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
Apparently you have been doing something in your mirror.

When you feel better, calm down, tidy yourself up, and try and explain what on earth you are talking about.
 

Hypatia

Pagan
An actual delusion cannot, by definition, be real.

So what's left is to try to figure out if what we're considering is for real or not.
 

Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
Rmack, the idea that we created reality by agreement was never new with Hubbard. He got it from the ancients in India or wherever, and he said so himself.

I'm fully aware of that. I've studied a lot of occultism, West and East. He sure as hell made it his own by framing it in specialized jargon, though.

The"agreements" you make with other people in this present state of reality is only the tiniest shadow of a whim of a hint of the original agreements that you did subscribe to and participate in fully at the time the universe was created. Again, this is not Hubbard's invented idea. It has been around a long time..

Anyone who was in for any significant amount of time, and studied enough was aware of this dogma. I just don't believe it.

What Hubbard did point out - and as far as I know this originated with himself - is that the apparent solidity and unresponsiveness of matter to your decisions at present is entirely due to the fact that you have been overwhelmed by it so often and so thoroughly that you, I, and all of us, are in complete apathy on the subject of doing something about the state of reality, and that (just in theory, mind you) this state can be changed by taking more and ever increasingly more responsibility for the fact of your own apathy on the subject.

Now, what I have written here above is just plain ordinary basic Scientology that we, in my Org, (well, not mine, but the Org where I was) expected every common or garden Scientologist to know these things. And they did.

The reason for this doctrine was to deny the existence, or at least the authority, of God. Just as the theory of evolution tries to explain the existence of the universe and all life as basically just happening by itself through largely unknown physical processes without any need for a Creator, this doctrine says we all created ourselves and later, the universe, also eliminating any need for God.

Evolution (cosmic evolution, which is one of several types) says 'first there was nothing, and then for no reason, it exploded.' This doctrine says 'first we were nothing, and then somehow, we decided to be something'.

How we could do that when we didn't exist yet isn't explained.


Which makes me wonder why so many people on this board don't know it. What were you doing when you were involved in the CofS? Did you study the materials? read the books, listen to the lectures, do the training that was offered? You know - do what a Scio is supposed to do.

Perhaps we know it, but just don't buy it anymore. Why would anyone trust this guys teachings once they found out what kind of a man he really was? And even if you think that doesn't matter, look at the RESULTS! Not the feel-good-about-yourself you could get from selling Amway, but the long term results of those who made the top of the bridge.

Or did you just pay money and wait for a ride to OT? Or - even worse - join the Sea Org and run around chasing butterflies with your time?

Luckily for me, I didn't have anywhere near the money it would take to go up the bridge at the time (auditing was about $400 bucks an hour in the late seventies, early eighties) so I joined the S.O. believing the total lie that my bridge was 'awarded'.

That worked out for me, also. I saw the fruit of the upper levels in the clears and OT's I met (including my first wife) and figured out that something was very, very, very wrong, so I just left after a year and a half. I won't say blow; they can blow me.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
The reason for this doctrine was to deny the existence, or at least the authority, of God. Just as the theory of evolution tries to explain the existence of the universe and all life as basically just happening by itself through largely unknown physical processes without any need for a Creator, this doctrine says we all created ourselves and later, the universe, also eliminating any need for God.

It's much more likely that God was invented to divert attention away from the idea that you are much more than your earthly masters want you to be.


Evolution (cosmic evolution, which is one of several types) says 'first there was nothing, and then for no reason, it exploded.' This doctrine says 'first we were nothing, and then somehow, we decided to be something'.

How we could do that when we didn't exist yet isn't explained.

We were "nothing" ? ? ? Oh no. We were, and still are, "no thing" and not "nothing". Huge difference.

Reality is what reality is, even though you don't buy it.
 

Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
It's much more likely that God was invented to divert attention away from the idea that you are much more than your earthly masters want you to be.

That is what it comes down to, huh? Are you god, as Satan told you, or not?




We were "nothing" ? ? ? Oh no. We were, and still are, "no thing" and not "nothing". Huge difference.

Reality is what reality is, even though you don't buy it.

You really do buy into this idea that you just created yourself, and everything else, huh? Well, maybe that will come in handy where you're going.
 

Gib

Crusader
It's much more likely that God was invented to divert attention away from the idea that you are much more than your earthly masters want you to be.




We were "nothing" ? ? ? Oh no. We were, and still are, "no thing" and not "nothing". Huge difference.

Reality is what reality is, even though you don't buy it.

who are our earthly masters?
 

George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
Apparently you have been doing something in your mirror.

When you feel better, calm down, tidy yourself up, and try and explain what on earth you are talking about.

All of the convoluted, self contradicting, circular illogic hubbard wrote, that you were able to grasp, and I lose you in one paragraph?

Were all of them bullshitting the entire time? Yep, some of them just haven't realized it yet.
 

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
Look! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's...

thefarside-mar11_zpsgqqqqizl.jpg

 

Elronius of Marcabia

Silver Meritorious Patron
Rmack, the idea that we created reality by agreement was never new with Hubbard. He got it from the ancients in India or wherever, and he said so himself.

The"agreements" you make with other people in this present state of reality is only the tiniest shadow of a whim of a hint of the original agreements that you did subscribe to and participate in fully at the time the universe was created. Again, this is not Hubbard's invented idea. It has been around a long time.

What Hubbard did point out - and as far as I know this originated with himself - is that the apparent solidity and unresponsiveness of matter to your decisions at present is entirely due to the fact that you have been overwhelmed by it so often and so thoroughly that you, I, and all of us, are in complete apathy on the subject of doing something about the state of reality, and that (just in theory, mind you) this state can be changed by taking more and ever increasingly more responsibility for the fact of your own apathy on the subject.

Now, what I have written here above is just plain ordinary basic Scientology that we, in my Org, (well, not mine, but the Org where I was) expected every common or garden Scientologist to know these things. And they did.

Which makes me wonder why so many people on this board don't know it. What were you doing when you were involved in the CofS? Did you study the materials? read the books, listen to the lectures, do the training that was offered? You know - do what a Scio is supposed to do.

Or did you just pay money and wait for a ride to OT? Or - even worse - join the Sea Org and run around chasing butterflies with your time?

So I just have one question for you Leon:yes:

Why do you hangout with such apathetic know nothings ?
 

Some Random Guy

Patron with Honors
Rmack, the idea that we created reality by agreement was never new with Hubbard. He got it from the ancients in India or wherever, and he said so himself.

The"agreements" you make with other people in this present state of reality is only the tiniest shadow of a whim of a hint of the original agreements that you did subscribe to and participate in fully at the time the universe was created. Again, this is not Hubbard's invented idea. It has been around a long time.

What Hubbard did point out - and as far as I know this originated with himself - is that the apparent solidity and unresponsiveness of matter to your decisions at present is entirely due to the fact that you have been overwhelmed by it so often and so thoroughly that you, I, and all of us, are in complete apathy on the subject of doing something about the state of reality, and that (just in theory, mind you) this state can be changed by taking more and ever increasingly more responsibility for the fact of your own apathy on the subject.

Now, what I have written here above is just plain ordinary basic Scientology that we, in my Org, (well, not mine, but the Org where I was) expected every common or garden Scientologist to know these things. And they did.

Which makes me wonder why so many people on this board don't know it. What were you doing when you were involved in the CofS? Did you study the materials? read the books, listen to the lectures, do the training that was offered? You know - do what a Scio is supposed to do.

Or did you just pay money and wait for a ride to OT? Or - even worse - join the Sea Org and run around chasing butterflies with your time?

Thanks Leon,

The bold is mine and it appears that everyone has forgotten or overlooked that teeny-weeny little point: IN THEORY.

Most of what Hubbard spoke of was exactly that .....THEORY, like clear,OT, making MEST disappear etc. Its all theory with no visible claims which can be substantiated.

And if it cannot be substantiated its just bullshit, just like scientology.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
Thanks Leon,

The bold is mine and it appears that everyone has forgotten or overlooked that teeny-weeny little point: IN THEORY.

Most of what Hubbard spoke of was exactly that .....THEORY, like clear,OT, making MEST disappear etc. Its all theory with no visible claims which can be substantiated.

And if it cannot be substantiated its just bullshit, just like scientology
.


Hold it right there. The world of physics, and mathematics, and much else that passes as hard science, is replete with datums that have never been substantiated. Why do you think it's called the THEORY of evolution, or string-THEORY, or many other THEORIES?

It is because they cannot be fully substantiated. They just seem to make sense that way and by adopting the proposition much progress can be made in the subject.

Earlier on this thread I made a little jibe about the Oordt cloud and they origin of comets. Only one person seemed to get what I was getting at there. It's the same here, and yet you read scientific articles referencing the Oordt as if it was fact.

With Hubbard, and with all in Scientology you need to be able to differentiate between real phenomena that one can expect to find, theories that my or may not pan out to be valid, and Hubs just shooting his mouth off. If you can't do that then you're lost before you even start.
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
<snip>

Earlier on this thread I made a little jibe about the [highlight]Oordt[/highlight] cloud and they origin of comets. Only one person seemed to get what I was getting at there. It's the same here, and yet you read scientific articles referencing the Oordt as if it was fact.
It's the Oort cloud Leon, Oort cloud. :nazi:

How're you liking my new sig btw? Since you weren't too impressed with my old one I thought I'd feature an old friend of yours in my new one. :biggrin:
 

Churchill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Scientology is the creme de la creme of
BULLSHIT and the tragic, sad truth
is that Scientologists are seriously detached from reality.

Any minute now, IAS fundraising will begin for yellow t-shirts to fly to Japan because of the earthquake, and it
will NOT occur to a single fucktard Scientologist to wonder why NO OT's "as-ised" the earthquake.

Anyone who believes Hubbard is sick and deluded.

 

JustSheila

Crusader
Hold it right there. The world of physics, and mathematics, and much else that passes as hard science, is replete with datums that have never been substantiated. Why do you think it's called the THEORY of evolution, or string-THEORY, or many other THEORIES?

Flunk for going by an MU, Leon. Theory and data are not the same thing. To Cramming with you now to clay demo the difference.
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
Thanks Leon,

The bold is mine and it appears that everyone has forgotten or overlooked that teeny-weeny little point: IN THEORY.

Most of what Hubbard spoke of was exactly that .....THEORY, like clear,OT, making MEST disappear etc. Its all theory with no visible claims which can be substantiated.

And if it cannot be substantiated its just bullshit, just like scientology.

:thumbsup:
Just my comments to clarify terms.

In science, an initial guess at something is called an hypothesis.
In science, when an hypothesis is substantiated it becomes a theory.

In science, there is no such thing as absolute truth.
However, this does not mean that science is no better than the claims of a pseudo-scientific cult.


In common language, the term "theory" is used to mean the same thing as what scientists call an "hypothesis".

Carry on... :wink2:
 
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