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Spoilers***My Scientology Movie*** Look away now

JustSheila

Crusader
That is a gross cop-out. Absolutely an unacceptable excuse. Like the president saying he had nothing to do with bombing a country because he didn't fly the plane. Marty Rathbun, from what I have seen so far in the movie, openly admits to being the "most bad ass guy in Scientology". He is absolutely culpable for all of the things I mentioned. He is culpable for every horrific act that Scientology committed under his reign with Miscavige. As Louis is apt to point out, Marty only left when he fell out of favor. It had nothing to do with any kind of mea cupla.

Hi Adam, I completely understand and agree with your logic on this, but the facts are that Marty had nothing to do with the SO children, had no firsthand knowledge and had no authority over that area in any way until at least after 1986. See my later thread post for more detail. He may have been over it afterward, I don't know about that, and if he was, then others should report what they know.

I know personally who was and who was not involved with and over the kids from 1977-1986 and I'm telling you, Marty did not have any authority over them during that time. He knew less than most parents then and he never even issued a single ethics order, much less a Declare, because he did not have much authority in those years and it wasn't his area.

I am not apologizing for him. He's done horrible stuff in his time as an SO Member. This was not one of them in the time I was there, though. He wasn't a senior exec until much later and I can't say what he did or did not do then or what areas he was over or was not after 1986. I am only stating what I know to be fact up until I left and don't know firsthand what happened afterward.
 

Adam7986

Declared SP
Hi Adam, I completely understand and agree with your logic on this, but the facts are that Marty had nothing to do with the SO children, had no firsthand knowledge and had no authority over that area in any way until at least after 1986. See my later thread post for more detail. He may have been over it afterward, I don't know about that, and if he was, then others should report what they know.

I know personally who was and who was not involved with and over the kids from 1977-1986 and I'm telling you, Marty did not have any authority over them during that time. He knew less than most parents then and he never even issued a single ethics order, much less a Declare, because he did not have much authority in those years and it wasn't his area.

I am not apologizing for him. He's done horrible stuff in his time as an SO Member. This was not one of them in the time I was there, though. He wasn't a senior exec until much later and I can't say what he did or did not do then or what areas he was over or was not after 1986. I am only stating what I know to be fact up until I left and don't know firsthand what happened afterward.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The entire Sea Org uses children as slaves. Marty had everything to do with that.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
I have no idea what you are talking about. The entire Sea Org uses children as slaves. Marty had everything to do with that.

Adam, so we can keep the thread on topic and it doesn't land in the bin, please PM me if you want to discuss this further.
 

Leland

Crusader
Well....it has been talked about that Hubbard had children "holding his ashtray" and "following him around" I assume to do his bidding....and fulfilling his desires.....on the Apollo.

So....IMO all those that "trained under LRH on the Apollo"....would have seen this....would have known about this. And upon "graduation" and going into the Orgs around the planet....and manning their posts....would have at least somewhat operated off this type of inculcation......

The abuse of children goes hand in hand with the doctrines and training in Hubbard's Cult training....

Hubbard basically denies that Children are Children....in his writings.
 

an0n

Patron
You also see Marty in the movie still pushing the e-meter as an authoritative instrument that "measures thought", while giving Louis a scientology auditing session.

If only Marty could get this vital piece of scientific equipment to the worlds leading neuroscientists, we'd finally have the kind of breakthroughs Hubbard promised mankind. Looks like we're stuck with high resolution MRI's until then. :no:
 

Gib

Crusader
During that concluding TR scene, Marty says the whole thing was now a failure "...Because they went ahead and did what he suggested after I did went through all that work to try to get them to become self determined and and able to exercise intention."

That's Marty vouching for the scientology TR tech. That's Marty taking credit for all of their supposed at-cause, self-determined WINS. That's Marty Rathbun practicing "independent scientology".

well, I still disagree. Having watched the movie and now rereading Martys post about it, he says this:

"He sold me on the idea of chronicling my evolution from fighting for the church, then against it and finally advocating that people transcend from fights about Scientology altogether."

https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2016/09/05/louis-therouxs-scientology-movie/

Marty also mentioned in his post he spend hundreds of hours doing that and it was all sniped or edited out.

I think Marty is just doing he what he set out to do (that is transcend from fights about scientology altogether), and from his research into scientology. I personally think he is missing a lot of info on the history of dianetics and scientology. Marty may consider "fights about scientology" as a bad thing since he has gone all tao, budda on it all. Fine. Me, I do not think that way, my view is expose the con since there are no clears or OT's, and that does not mean I'm fighting scientology but actually communicating about it which is all we do here and elsewhere and it is my free choice to do so, which he may not understand. It's also called the Socratic method.

I like the My Scientology Movie, I think it does a great job of exposing the crazy of scientology, afterall Hubbard said his purpose in his written speech called My Philosophy was "to bring a barbarism out of the mud it thinks conceived it and to form, here on Earth, a civilization based on human understanding, not violence. That's a big purpose, a star high goal. But I think it's your purpose, too"

That rhetoric by Hubbard is very convincing, and it got me.

If I were to do a docu on scientology, I would take Hubbard's My Philosophy statement, his speech in written form, and show all the violations of his own Philosophy.
 
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Adam7986

Declared SP
I watched the movie and I still stand by my position. Marty is unforgivably numb to the horrific things he did as a leader of the cult. I didn't see a shred of remorse in the movie anywhere. He even seemed more amused by the reenactment of "the hole" than he was disturbed by it. Maybe it is because he spent decades in the cult (although I spend two in myself and over half of them as a child where I was particularly suggestible). The most disturbing part was watching him laugh on camera and talk about how it hurt his fists to punch Marc Headley.

Now I see why Marty got so pissy about this movie and about Louis Theroux. He knew the world was going to see him for the type of person he was when this movie was released. What a poor excuse for damage control he did, too.
 

Gib

Crusader
I watched the movie and I still stand by my position. Marty is unforgivably numb to the horrific things he did as a leader of the cult. I didn't see a shred of remorse in the movie anywhere. He even seemed more amused by the reenactment of "the hole" than he was disturbed by it. Maybe it is because he spent decades in the cult (although I spend two in myself and over half of them as a child where I was particularly suggestible). The most disturbing part was watching him laugh on camera and talk about how it hurt his fists to punch Marc Headley.

Now I see why Marty got so pissy about this movie and about Louis Theroux. He knew the world was going to see him for the type of person he was when this movie was released. What a poor excuse for damage control he did, too.

Marty was not a leader of the cult. Everything had to be approved by DM.

You also realize the movie was edited, Marty may have show remorse in some scenes, we just don't know. We have no idea of what footage was taped.

As far as Marty is concerned, I don't care. He did do a lot of damage, and I do not quite understand him now, but I don't care anymore. I think the movie did a great job of showing the crazy of scientology so I'm happy with that.
 

Boomima

Patron with Honors
I watched the movie and I still stand by my position. Marty is unforgivably numb to the horrific things he did as a leader of the cult. I didn't see a shred of remorse in the movie anywhere. He even seemed more amused by the reenactment of "the hole" than he was disturbed by it. Maybe it is because he spent decades in the cult (although I spend two in myself and over half of them as a child where I was particularly suggestible). The most disturbing part was watching him laugh on camera and talk about how it hurt his fists to punch Marc Headley.

Now I see why Marty got so pissy about this movie and about Louis Theroux. He knew the world was going to see him for the type of person he was when this movie was released. What a poor excuse for damage control he did, too.

After her death was revealed, I remember Marty telling the story of how he forcedAnnie Broeker Tidman back after she tried to flee. He didn't sound too remorseful then. I find it difficult to believe that he regrets anything save the bad things that happened to him while he was in the CoS.
 

oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
I watched the movie and I still stand by my position. Marty is unforgivably numb to the horrific things he did as a leader of the cult. I didn't see a shred of remorse in the movie anywhere. He even seemed more amused by the reenactment of "the hole" than he was disturbed by it. Maybe it is because he spent decades in the cult (although I spend two in myself and over half of them as a child where I was particularly suggestible). The most disturbing part was watching him laugh on camera and talk about how it hurt his fists to punch Marc Headley.

Now I see why Marty got so pissy about this movie and about Louis Theroux. He knew the world was going to see him for the type of person he was when this movie was released. What a poor excuse for damage control he did, too.

The re-enactment of the hole seemed like a homecoming for Marty. When he said 'what's the difference?' to Louis, he comes across as giddy with excitement. He was oblivious to the suffering.

Most people would have felt shame and remorse when talking about punching Marc Headley. Interesting that he didn't feel anything in his head, only in his fists, nor did he feel empathy for Marc.
 

Gib

Crusader
The re-enactment of the hole seemed like a homecoming for Marty. When he said 'what's the difference?' to Louis, he comes across as giddy with excitement. He was oblivious to the suffering.

Most people would have felt shame and remorse when talking about punching Marc Headley. Interesting that he didn't feel anything in his head, only in his fists, nor did he feel empathy for Marc.

That's your opinion, but once again we do not know what Louie asked after that scene?

Just the facts mam.
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
Call it what one may; indoctrination, training routines,subtle manipulation ,undue influence,brain washing,inculcation on how to do self hypnosis while using the lead hypnotist set goal , or installing a Hubbard persona, it is very much the pathway to creating a cult to the ends of power and control by and for The Self-appointed Authority.

El con, mankind's greatest friendly humanitarian (sarcasm off )

snip......to realize that obeying the written behavioral modification instructions of a madman who created scientology might be a gateway drug to entrapping them into the rest of the mindfuck.
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
When the string on a puppet is found and exposed by an observer and the puppet snaps back using the Mannerism's of the puppeteer, is it a clue that the puppeteer is still in control?

Maybe that is a question more beneficially asked and answered on Marty's blog!?

snip...

You may be right. The common thread seems to be that when he is not in control of the situation, he snaps. When he is not in control of the questions he is asked, or the direction of the scenes he snaps.
 

Adam7986

Declared SP
Marty was not a leader of the cult. Everything had to be approved by DM.

You also realize the movie was edited, Marty may have show remorse in some scenes, we just don't know. We have no idea of what footage was taped.

As far as Marty is concerned, I don't care. He did do a lot of damage, and I do not quite understand him now, but I don't care anymore. I think the movie did a great job of showing the crazy of scientology so I'm happy with that.

Just because he wasn't the leader doesn't mean he wasn't a leader. How can you say he wasn't a leader? He got to roll shit downhill. I was at the bottom where it rained shit. Granted he had to deal with the worst of Miscavige, but then again he got perks that a peon like me could never have imagined were even possible.

In all the posts that Marty made about the movie, I didn't see a single claim that his remorse was edited out of the movie. I would think he'd put that at the forefront of the weak defense he was trying to mount.
 

Adam7986

Declared SP
well, I still disagree. Having watched the movie and now rereading Martys post about it, he says this:

https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2016/09/05/louis-therouxs-scientology-movie/

Marty also mentioned in his post he spend hundreds of hours doing that and it was all sniped or edited out.

I think Marty is just doing he what he set out to do (that is transcend from fights about scientology altogether), and from his research into scientology. I personally think he is missing a lot of info on the history of dianetics and scientology. Marty may consider "fights about scientology" as a bad thing since he has gone all tao, budda on it all. Fine. Me, I do not think that way, my view is expose the con since there are no clears or OT's, and that does not mean I'm fighting scientology but actually communicating about it which is all we do here and elsewhere and it is my free choice to do so, which he may not understand. It's also called the Socratic method.

I like the My Scientology Movie, I think it does a great job of exposing the crazy of scientology, afterall Hubbard said his purpose in his written speech called My Philosophy was "to bring a barbarism out of the mud it thinks conceived it and to form, here on Earth, a civilization based on human understanding, not violence. That's a big purpose, a star high goal. But I think it's your purpose, too"

That rhetoric by Hubbard is very convincing, and it got me.

If I were to do a docu on scientology, I would take Hubbard's My Philosophy statement, his speech in written form, and show all the violations of his own Philosophy.

I mean, it is often a bully's mentality that everyone should forget what they were fighting about in the first place. It circumvents the need for the bully to own up to what he did, express remorse and apologize to the people he did wrong.

Maybe you do have a point. Maybe there were 100s of hours of Marty crying and begging for forgiveness edited out of the film. In that case then, Marty should have leveled that claim at Theroux by now. Instead Marty just went on a campaign of character assassination, which somehow shifted from Theroux to every ex-Scientologist who doesn't play for team Rathbun. That is more revealing to me than speculation on what the 100s of hours of edited footage contain.
 

Gib

Crusader
Just because he wasn't the leader doesn't mean he wasn't a leader. How can you say he wasn't a leader? He got to roll shit downhill. I was at the bottom where it rained shit. Granted he had to deal with the worst of Miscavige, but then again he got perks that a peon like me could never have imagined were even possible.

In all the posts that Marty made about the movie, I didn't see a single claim that his remorse was edited out of the movie. I would think he'd put that at the forefront of the weak defense he was trying to mount.

I know what you are saying, but I do not think Marty is the type of person that emotes.

Marty blew in Dec 2004, I believe you joined the SO after that time, so any shit you got was not from Marty, please correct me if I'm wrong on the time frame. Marty tells what happened to him causing him to leave. He does pause telling the story of Mike Rinder and Tom Devocht, about 2:40 into the vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_hEwu9Ra8A
 

Adam7986

Declared SP
I know what you are saying, but I do not think Marty is the type of person that emotes.

Marty blew in Dec 2004, I believe you joined the SO after that time, so any shit you got was not from Marty, please correct me if I'm wrong on the time frame. Marty tells what happened to him causing him to leave. He does pause telling the story of Mike Rinder and Tom Devocht, about 2:40 into the vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_hEwu9Ra8A

My time in the Sea Org was from August of 2001 and I was booted in July of 2004.
 

Gib

Crusader
My time in the Sea Org was from August of 2001 and I was booted in July of 2004.

Thanks Adam, I had no idea you were in the SO during that time period. I tried to research the google for your story but couldn't find one so I asked the question of you. I do not know if you watched the vid I posted, but Marty says he saw a change in DM in 1999/2000. And Marty says he was at Flag on a special project during that time and returned to Int in 2003 to discover "the hole". Marty does not state the special project, but it appears he was not the "leader" you claim, if you know what I mean. Marty was yet another useful idiot for DM as I stated earlier.

I have not read any of Martys books, have you? Maybe somebody who has can interject. The only person I know of is "ILuv2Lurk" poster here on ESMB.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that for you to state Marty knew everything that was going in the COS and is responsible is not quite true and to blame him is not true, IMHO.

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oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
That's your opinion, but once again we do not know what Louie asked after that scene?

Just the facts mam.

Louis mentioned that he thought it was fun - the re-enactment, being thrown against the wall. He asked Marty about how he felt being involved with it and Marty replied, "you just said it was fun". Louis replied "but this is just make believe" to which Marty replied "what's the difference?"

You'd really have to see the scene to understand it. It wasn't just the words, it was the way he was behaving. He looked like a kid in a candy store all giggling and smiling.

Couple that with the words he actually said and it seems pretty clear. The way he said "What's the difference?" he was giddy with excitement.
 

Gib

Crusader
Louis mentioned that he thought it was fun - the re-enactment, being thrown against the wall. He asked Marty about how he felt being involved with it and Marty replied, "you just said it was fun". Louis replied "but this is just make believe" to which Marty replied "what's the difference?"

You'd really have to see the scene to understand it. It wasn't just the words, it was the way he was behaving. He looked like a kid in a candy store all giggling and smiling.

Couple that with the words he actually said and it seems pretty clear. The way he said "What's the difference?" he was giddy with excitement.

yes I know and saw the scene, Marty was giddy because it showed the entrapement.
 
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