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Out of Body with perception? Still like the idea?

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
PART 1
At the risk of starting an endless chain of concomittant reference

Never have I.
I personally haven't read anything written by LRH inferring "ownership". "You don't HAVE a thetan, you ARE a thetan"
Exactly! :)

I am formal I've either listened to a tape or read it in some materials. (Almost certain it was tape) was stunned and recal I had the feeling I've been fooled with the whole "spiritual pseudo quest" of going up the bridge..
the guru was confused:eek:

In the event Veda, Paul, Big Blue, phenomanon or anyone else read my post and know which tape I am talking about...please let us know!

Regarding the french vs english words\definitions


IMO (I might be wrong thought)

Mind = la pensée. ( this part of us who think)
Soul = l'esprit ( a vague confusing concept)
Spirit = l'âme ( this we try to define and grasp)
Mental = mental ( a system which allow communication and problem solving with the physical universe)

All those questions are really relevant for anyone in a quest to get understanding ; and it's obvious you are doing a very thorough research; I did quite the same quest to answer the same questions and comparaisons you raise..actually a Zen Rinzai monk helped me.....to give up :D

May I suggest you answer yourself this basic question first:

Who is asking those questions????

I surprendre to the face my brain will never grasp those questions..it has been conceived to resolve physical matters only.
Although, in the stillness of the frantic mind, one can experience being this "higher self" observing the mind, mental and ego. Which can be a good base.

By the way, am I correct to understand you being a french speaking native????

Anyhow, this was a great post of you and I will try to recall the LRH tape .
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Je pense donc je suis

Je suis quoi???
Celui qui pense???
Celui qui pense est quoi?


:D

Dans la méditation pleine conscience c'est plutôt:

Je ne pense pas donc je suis ici, maintenant observant ma pensée!

;)
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
... PART 2

"Je panse ... donc j'essuie" (Alphonse Allais's paraphrase)

Fooking Descartes ... sigh ... seriously considering to change my alias to "Me and my OCD", LOL.

:heartflower:
I love it : je panse donc j'essuie:D

Regarding the OCD, any brillant mind will walk this path...because it's the nature of the mind to think;
but one thing I realized years ago, was the true wisdom and knowledge of the farmer, the gardener and decided to walk this path in my quest ; I discovered mother nature was the greatest Master among all the great masters!

For example a cat is a great "be in pt" master
:D
 
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Me and My Self

Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn
Tra
Je pense donc je suis

Je suis quoi???
Celui qui pense???
Celui qui pense est quoi?


:D

Dans la méditation pleine conscience c'est plutôt:

Je ne pense pas donc je suis ici, maintenant observant ma pensée!

;)
Translation into spanish would be "Pienso, luego existo".
I think thus I AM. (State of Being)
or
I exist (as a living being) because of my thought.

Would that second paragraph be a version of active meditation? Or is it the usual watching of thoughts come and go peacefully while in a sitting meditative state, eyes closed?

I do active meditation which includes movement (I think it was Gurdjieff's Conscious Movements thing). I find it easier as I've never been able to sit and observe more than 10 minutes. I either get foggy or fall asleep.

Now the Observer is almost "ON" all of the time (provided I am in a creative/active mood).
Below that state, my Ego tends to punch the Observer off ... but it has now a good set of batteries and comes back faster.
 

Me and My Self

Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn
I love it : je panse donc j'essuie:D

Regardons the OCD any brillant mind will Well this path...because it's the nature of the mind to think;
but one thing I realized years ago, was the true wisdom and knowledge of the farmer, the gardener and decided to walk this path in my quest ; I discovered mother nature was the greatest Master among all the great masters!

For example a cat is a great "be in pt" master
:D
I agree totally! And this was one of the reasons I moved progressively away of "la capitale", then halfway nearby, and finally a more rural area ...

I have being spending these last 5 1/2 years in a totally "not-my-usual-me" endeavor.
Working with rescued cats and dogs. Long story short, not only can I relate to your words, but I could affirm that I have learned much more about how to live "doing the right thing" from all those little giants, than from anything else I'd done before. Much more as in essential communication, ethics, respect of the other, and especially unconditional love (when there is love - they are more sensitive and picky than one could think as they scan your real being).
I have had beautiful experiences prior to that, communicating with smaller beings (particularly butterflies, those since I was little).

Now I have somewhat balanced that part of me which was missing ... but I feel more in my element among words, thoughts and numbers and techie things. Learned to read/write at about 4 y.o. ... half a century hungry for books and books and books on end.
I'm "damaged", LOL.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I do active meditation which includes movement (I think it was Gurdjieff's Conscious Movements thing). I find it easier as I've never been able to sit and observe more than 10 minutes. I either get foggy or fall asleep.
Good!

Meditation is the most difficult thing To do...sitting here calm...is very painful for the frantic mind...it takes a lot of discipline and training to ever accomplish only 5 minutes here and now; but so much rewards in true knowledge (that sits within us)

I find guided mindfulness meditation is easier

Your method seem good for you as you avoid fighting movements which is the right thing To do.
 
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lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I agree totally! And this was one of the reasons I moved progressively away of "la capitale", then halfway nearby, and finally a more rural area ...

I have being spending these last 5 1/2 years in a totally "not-my-usual-me" endeavor.
Working with rescued cats and dogs. Long story short, not only can I relate to your words, but I could affirm that I have learned much more about how to live "doing the right thing" from all those little giants, than from anything else I'd done before. Much more as in essential communication, ethics, respect of the other, and especially unconditional love (when there is love - they are more sensitive and picky than one could think as they scan your real being).
I have had beautiful experiences prior to that, communicating with smaller beings (particularly butterflies, those since I was little).

Now I have somewhat balanced that part of me which was missing ... but I feel more in my element among words, thoughts and numbers and techie things. Learned to read/write at about 4 y.o. ... half a century hungry for books and books and books on end.
I'm "damaged", LOL.
Ditto!

Inconditional love from animals , their instinct, loyalty, how they always do the right things because they rely on their senses and feelings..not to any intellectual and judgemental filtrer.

I stop reading books To triggers my brain..it des a compulsive thriving for knowledged ( years in the cult) but I now read reno , decoration and cooking magazines ; that's more of help in pt and frankly, who care s about our IQ score in the real life???

;)
 

Me and My Self

Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn
Thank you very much!
I'm almost certain he may have been saying so sarcastically as that seemed to be his overall tone all throughout.
By the way, am I correct to understand you being a french speaking native????
Oui madame. Both french and spanish native (family + social)
in the stillness of the frantic mind
I get what you mean (or so I think) - the in-between moments of stillness - but said that way it is indeed an interesting paradox.
Mind = la pensée. ( this part of us who think)
Soul = l'esprit ( a vague confusing concept)
Spirit = l'âme ( this we try to define and grasp)
Mental = mental ( a system which allow communication and problem solving with the physical universe)
I agree with mental. Spirit and soul always seemed confusing to me - I still don't understand the separation as both are spiritual traits - but would equate soul / alma to the HEART (emotions). Pensée for me is a thought ... but it is true that "la pensée" also encompasses the thinker. Spirit ... I don't like to define it as "âme" because it would imply it is immortal. Wait. Ok I give up, LOL.
(lost in translation ...)

I am liking more Jung's cosmology which I haven't totally grasped yet - only working on the "embracing my shadow" part ... and having recently cleared a concept that was wrongly understood (in short, the anima/animus thing - female/male parts of Self - I was mistaking Animus for the Self ... so it's ground zero in pause by now.)

..actually a Zen Rinzai monk helped me.....to give up :D
Ha ha ha - best advice ever!

May I suggest you answer yourself this basic question first:

Who is asking those questions????
I'll work on it.
BTW aren't we hijacking the OBE thread?:unsure:

:grouphug:
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I'll work on it.
BTW aren't we hijacking the OBE thread?:unsure:

:grouphug:
Yes indeed we are
But our zenness brought us to surrender to thread derail and hijacking...

(Usually after a few pages of replies, threads are recycled and thus, kept alive)

Très heureuse d'accueillir un latin dans une mer Anglo-saxonne!
;)
 

JustSheila

Crusader
PART 1
At the risk of starting an endless chain of concomittant references, I'll start by looking for the various Scn definitions of "a thetan".

Never have I.
I personally haven't read anything written by LRH inferring "ownership". "You don't HAVE a thetan, you ARE a thetan" was continuously stressed by fellow Scions while at the Orgs (Except for ironical informal uses as "pick up your thetan and start moving particles" among staff members maybe).
:winner:

Your entire post was terrific, wonderful, thank you SO much for posting. I really enjoy your views, so fresh and concrete, yet spiritual, too!
I won't have time to go through your whole post in detail until tomorrow when I have a boring work shift :laugh: but wanted to comment on this part.

A long time ago I decided it made no difference at all whether you referred to "my soul" or yourself personally as THE soul. Here in real-time, we live as a combined living creature, with living cells amongst living animals and other living things and we all eventually die and the whole combination body thing dies along with the rest. It's just that way. :shrug: To live means to die. But I digress.

The thing is, the soul or spirit is still just a part of the combined living thing we are now. no matter how we refer to it. Just by living, we survive as a group of intricate living things, each with a specialized function. We are not alone. If we were, we wouldn't be here. Not possible.

So the big deal Hubbard made of all that was never any big deal at all. It's like whether to use italics or quotes when you name a book chapter. Who cares? The book isn't affected, nor the ending.

Love your posts. Nice to have you here. :bighug:
 

JustSheila

Crusader
I love it : je panse donc j'essuie:D

Regarding the OCD, any brillant mind will walk this path...because it's the nature of the mind to think;
but one thing I realized years ago, was the true wisdom and knowledge of the farmer, the gardener and decided to walk this path in my quest ; I discovered mother nature was the greatest Master among all the great masters!

For example a cat is a great "be in pt" master
:D
I was with you on this and would have given you yet another :winner: except you said cats are so in PT.

At 6 am this morning I woke up to find the neighbor across the street's stray cat (one of many they have and let loose) on my front porch. I opened the door and the cat looked absolutely horrified to discover he was on someone's doorstep that he did not know (rather than on the top of a mountain surveying the peasants and other lovelies) and ran some 50 mph across the street home, which was about 2 acres. Didn't know cats were THAT fast!

Cats are not allowed here. It is a bird sanctuary. A little finch in the bushes peeked out after about 20 minutes, still nervous. The cat had apparently been stalking it. Ah, but a bigger animal had opened the door. Bye bye, bird killer. This is their safe space.

* I love cats. They're awesome. But the wildlife devastation they cause when irresponsible owners let them loose to roam, breed and kill is terrible.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
:D

Sheila,

I find the cat very awake and in pt...he knows there are delicious fresh meals around and succeded to find his way to it in the darkness...

Unfortunately for the cat ( fortunstely for the bitds), the big female animal suppressed the natural outcome...

Can you imagine the poor cat torture he is enduring day after day....

:D
 

Me and My Self

Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn
:bighug:
The thing is, the soul or spirit is still just a part of the combined living thing we are now. no matter how we refer to it. Just by living, we survive as a group of intricate living things, each with a specialized function. We are not alone. If we were, we wouldn't be here. Not possible.
One can momentarily disassemble a radio set to study in details all of its components ... however if we forget to assemble them back together in their proper places, one won't get no station signals ... and sometimes some parts may wear off or just break... or be lost forever.

Now I get your alias correctly ... indeed, there's just ME.

All the other stuff pertains either to the "divide and conquer" department (most religions, cults and self-proclaimed gurus) or to the "DIY manuals" writers' and researchers' department (philosophy and science, etc.)

Thank you for your kind words of appreciation :heartflower:

P.S. Off-topic paraphernalia

Fresh and Concrete
At first a funny pair of would-be comic strip characters popped out of my mind ... green Tinkerbell paired with a gray Spongebob.
I like it. Thanks again for the image :)

Definition of Fresh Concrete - Fresh concrete is that stage of concrete in which concrete can be moulded and it is in plastic state. The potential strength and durability of concrete of a given mix proportion is very dependent on the degree of its compactions

I wish to never lose sight of that malleable quality yet retaining all the strength of my compactions.

Oh. More OT (Off-Topic) stuff found I.
Yet another visual version that would encompass both of the above, and beyond ...


zen-balanced-stones-stock-picture-2506893.jpg

:runaway:
 
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phenomanon

Canyon
Why bother anyway? It is always ME.
At a given point of an endless multiplicity of the whole I AM.
Any other view would be denying my own responsibility as to which one I am allowing (wilingly or not) to manifest.
I've been out of my body all of my life, except when I snap back in it once in awhile. Most people have their outside mixed up with their inside. LOL
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hi @Me and My Self,
Sorry, since my english is not good, this sentence was badly constructed; I had problem to express the concept.
Yes your 1st interpretation of my idea is correct.

You are very clear to me in those questions you raised and I love those discussions.
I will attempt my thoughts on the subject which are tinted with the buddhism philosophy, training and meditation practice.

One thing I like to point first, is that even though we can't grasp, from an intellectual viewpoint, what the spirit is, it is obvious, according to the scientific neurobiology and science, that Ron was totally wrong regarding what he called the ''thetan'' ..Let's say that you clean the board..and make a new fresh start. Can you recall Ron talking about the thetan and saying ''your thetan'' ????? See??? IMHO the only thing Ron knew of was his ego mind, the self..he confused our spiritual nature with either the ego self or the intellectual. What I would say is that we know what it is not..but we don't know what it is. It has been proven scientifically that the brain activity still goes on even after death..which can explains after death experiences and people who can recall what happened just before they came back to life.

Also..regarding all the questions we have concerning our true nature, it is obviously emerging from the intellect (brain) which tries to grasp those matters..the brain has been given to us to solve physical matters...Now who is aware of being aware ??? It's me..or you..our Self and brain...

Although, I have the same impression than you regarding parrallel reality, but actually I can't believe in the past live recalls since recall comes from the brain and our brain dies when we die.. (I had a lot of past live recalls in $cientology but I believed I was guided into fabulations). I would think it is possibly more an attempt of the ego mind to collect proof of immortality...It's very tough to surrender to the face we might die and go into the nothing area...and that this life had no other meaning that the life of a tree or an animal...a little piece of a whole :oops:

One question that I can't find any answer for, is why we were given such an awareness of being aware if it's only to be aware that we will die..and what is the purpose of Human beings in the life plan ??? I can see it for plants, micro-organisms, animals...but to my knowledge, we are not feeding anything else than worms...:oops: However I don't think we are born for a different outcome than plants and animals...

Meditation practice, under guidance, may help one to get more knowledge of the ego and thoughts and dissociate from those (I am not my thoughts..I have thoughts)...or at least learning to be an observer...but as far as I am concerned I surrendered to the fact that I won't have answers to many questions and since it's only my ego who wants to know..it's not that important as it won't change anything. The best is to really enjoy the present time and each bit of life, since I only have this life and it will be short.

I now think that all spiritual quests to attain more knowledge are mainly ego quests. There is nothing to know...there is only to be our true nature, when we radiate, emanate, are pure love in a moment when there is no time, no meaning, no goal, no purpose but only to be. The more we let the intellect aside those matter the more we get a new feeling of what we are.

I am sorry for my poor english but I tried to do my very best.

I am looking forward to reading more of you about this topic.

Lotus, if you are this eloquent in English you must be delightful en Francais...
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Lotus, if you are this eloquent in English you must be delightful en Francais...
Thank you Birdie,

But I don't think I am delightful en français , but eloquent yes...However I master quite well my native language but am known to have a glib tongue
:oops:
 

Me and My Self

Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn
One question that I can't find any answer for, is why we were given such an awareness of being aware if it's only to be aware that we will die..and what is the purpose of Human beings in the life plan ??? I can see it for plants, micro-organisms, animals...but to my knowledge, we are not feeding anything else than worms...:oops: However I don't think we are born for a different outcome than plants and animals...
I notice that I seldom replied to this with a vague generality in my earlier post. Your views have triggered in me further research on this OOBE vs. physicality dilemma, which is leading me to round up something deeper in that direction.

Among things that have resurfaced, I remembered this book I read just after having moved to my actual location (and after Scn):

Satprem - The Mind of the Cells, which is a recollection of the experiments and findings of Mother (Sri Aurobindo's companion) upon "working on cell consciousness"
https://www.amazon.com/Willed-Mutation-Species-English-French/dp/0938710060

which might be of help in regard to your question. :questions:

Not sure if Mother's Agenda is the same book or else the whole compendium of Saprem's conversations with Mother, which he later on edited, adding more of his own comments.
Anyway it's available for free at their website https://www.auroville.org/contents/527 - which links to the download site here: https://agendamother.wordpress.com/agenda/ both in english and french versions (j'ai pas fait exprés, je le jure! it just came that way ... )

As the auroville site was slow to load I downloaded it from another place as a single volume - too heavy to upload here though as it's 11.5 MB. (3703 pages ...) If you are interested but can't get them from that site, I could split the full version I got maybe.


:rose: So many thanks, really. :heartflower:

EDITED:
Oh. About us being worm food, @lotus , I just remembered something from Gurdjieff or Ouspensky about Octaves and Hydrogens and scales/types of food according to those, human beings more or less in the middle of the food chain.
I didn't delve much deep into it at that time, and that was nearly 40 years ago while in the Hermetic studies ... found it to be pretty tough stuff by then but they seemed to be explaining how we fit into the overall scheme.
Just for info.
I might take a peek but it's quite unrelated to my actual research by now.
Re-merci!
 
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