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MainStream Society's Humiliation of Minority Spiritual and Religious Pursuits

Cornelius Bigot

Patron with Honors
I had an interesting talk with a never in today on the OPEN Facebook group called SCIENTOLOGY DEPROGRAMMING.
Your main reason for starting this thread: promoting your nutty ramblings on other forums, which nobody reads.
"OPEN" as in 'one you're not banned from', as you probably created it yourself.
Philip Fairbanks
I was never in Scientology but after years of reading Campbell, Jung and countless NLP books from Structure of Magic on I realized the insidious nature of the CULT is that theres a baby in the bathwater.
I fell for Thelema and after a weird experience I couldn't explain spent years studying and trying to do the rituals. To this day though I want nothing to do with Crowley, Thelema or any orgs of which thankfully I was never a member, but there were parts of the (like Hubbard's, culled together from dozens of mysticisms before) practices that seemed to work.
As to deciding where the baby is in the bathwater or if a partially faulty set of "principles" cobbled together from other spiritualist hoaxers like Crowley for instance, can be practiced safely independent of the primary cult, as Mueller would say: I cant speak to that.
So you've found another nut to talk to. I doubt if his "weird experience" can be ascribed to anything other than coincidence.
Apparently he found "parts of the practices that seemed to work". "Parts" and "seemed" being the important words here. Utter drivel. Lets put it to the test, Mr. Fairbanks.
URL of your nutty blog
Again : your main two reasons for being here : 1) Stir up shit and keep derailing the conversation. 2) Promote your nonsense posted in other places.
One of the most insidious aspects of having been in #Scientology is the stigma mainstream society places on Exes for having found a "baby" in the bathwater at all.
Mainstream society? You sure speak for a lot of people. Narcissist much? People are allowed to ask questions in the face of nonsense. That is not "stigma".
Most Exes under this mainstream humiliation will deny that there was ever a baby in the first place - just to show that they are not "brainwashed" any more, and mainstream society can accept them again.
This is a social pressure from mainstream society down onto members and former members of minority religious and spiritual pursuits. It's easy to see if you take an example outside of Scientology.
You act as if ex Scientologists all over the world are constantly lambasted in the streets about whether they hold on to certain aspects of Scientology. You are not sane. You do realize you're posting this on an Ex Scientologist Message Board, right? Oh great. Here comes the example that should prove your point. Oh dear.
Egypt, for example, has a mainstream society that is primarily Islamic. But there have been a small group of Christians in Alexandria and Cairo for 2000 years called the Coptics.
Mainstream Egyptians need an explanation for why these people rejected the mainstream and chose to be Christian instead. So they say they did not choose at all - they were brainwashed or hypnotized or deceived into having beliefs that do not conform to theirs.
Now you're speaking for all "mainstream Egyptians". Putting words in the mouths of an entire civilization, as if you actually know anything. You are not sane.

Also: 1) Christianity and Islam originated at roughly the same time and place. And 2) There's religious strife in most any given devoutly religious society that consists of more than one religious movement.

Please post a quote from a "mainstream Egyptian" saying Christians in Egypt are brainwashed. I'll allow your dumb ass to go back in time as far as you wish.
This social pressure from mainstream society is rarely talked about any more among Ex "cult" members. The anticult movement beliefs of blaming the brainwashing dominate the worldviews of Exes now, and punishes them for rejecting mainstream religion and daring to find an alternative.
Your imaginary "pressure from mainstream society" (remember Egypt) is of course not talked about by anybody but yourself. Here you are again, speaking for a large group of people. In this case: all ex Scientologists. (Pssst... you are talking to ex Scientologists. They might know what "dominates their worldview" better than you do)
Exes now are pressured to forget the "baby" they knew in Scientology, which was the reason they willingly and intentionally chose, every day, to be a Scientologist.
Example of such pressure? Of course not.
When that baby disappeared, or if they no longer needed that baby, they left Scientology. And then they had to apologize to everybody in mainstream society for why they did what they did. "I was brainwashed" is an easy, and very self-destructive, way of explaining yourself so you can be acceptable again.
Still speaking for others. Still talking to ex Scientologists as if they don't know their own mind. You are not sane. What is self-destructive is a narcissistic world-view that gives you such a sense of entitlement, you start to believe you can speak for others. Large groups of people even. Soon enough you end up alone in life.
What if Exes stopped apologizing for themselves?
Can you post a quote of any ex Scientologist apologizing for ever having been a Scientologist? Of course you can't. I sure hope you believe your own drivel. That way at least there is one.
What if they valued the lessons they learned and recognized that getting out of a cult was not something to recover from, but something that they were strengthened by?
What on earth are you even saying here? For some people getting out of a cult is something to recover from. For others the road might be less bumpy. You are not the arbiter in any case. And recovery and strength aren't mutually exclusive. You sure can babble.
Philip Fairbanks
I'm sure it's different depending on the individual and in some cases maybe best to just make a clean break. Though I was never in a cult I've found in studying them the tactics employed are the same as a few abusive sexes. There are, for instance, certain movies or songs I cant, rather wont listen to because it brings back all of that trauma. It'd be healthier maybe if i just faced it but I have to recover at my speed. So I can respect and empathize with folks regardless what line they're on.
So basically this guy is saying people should recover at their own speed. Which goes against all your babble about what ex Scientologists supposedly think, what you assume they should think, and whether they need recovery or should just proclaim "i feel so strengthened!".
Some of the most abusive and fanatical people in Scientology, such as Mike Rinder and Chris Shelton, need to blame the brainwashing for how they acted while in the cult.
Post a quote from either Mike Rinder or Chris Shelton blaming "brainwashing" for anything. Not mental conditioning or undue influence or anything else. Brainwashing.
But if you never harmed anyone in #Scientology, and never would - which is 99.9% of the people who were involved - you don't need to apologize, or to blame something else for why you were in Scientology.
Pssst... nobody is saying every ex Scientologist need to apologize for something.
A person can be made to believe that they experienced trauma, or to re-interpret their experiences as trauma. They can build up a kind of socially constructed nightmare and tell themselves continually that they were traumatized - simply because they believed something different from the mainstream.
Here you are literally saying that traumatized ex Scientologists are just faking it. That they just *tell* themselves they are traumatized. You are not sane.
Then this:
THIS IS NOT DENYING ANYONE WHO WAS TRAUMATIZED AND WHO NEEDS HELP
I'd say it is.
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'll get scientological for a moment and observe that Alan might possibly be dramatizing a GPM. Pro-Scn, Anti-Scn, Anti-Anti-Scn. Eventually you''ll give up being an anti-anti-scn and perhaps find a more interesting goal to pursue :)
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
In lieu of the non response from Alanzo...

Tribalism is a euphemism for cultism.

Wrong. A euphemsm is a term that falsely characterizes something bad as something not so bad. "Collateral Damage", for instance, for civilians who were killed in military attacks.

Tribalism, as a term, is much less loaded, way less pejorative, and more descriptive of the truth of human groups that go to extremes, and the exact ways they go to extremes.

As a concept, especially taken in the context of "Homo Sapiens is a tribal species" it explains WHY they go to extremes, allowing you to see the tribalism in Democrats, as well as in the US Marines, a fraternity, or a professional football team - as well as in Scientology and Anti-Scientology.

Tribalism, as a concept, allows for both the good and the bad of human groups.

Therefore, it is a much more truthful and useful term than "cult" in describing the phenomena we talk about on this board every day.
 
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Veda

Sponsor
Wrong. A euphemsm is a term that falsely characterizes something bad as something not so bad. "Collateral Damage", for instance, for civilians who were killed in military attacks.

Tribalism, as term, is much less loaded, way less pejorative, and more descriptive of the truth of human groups that go to extremes, and the exact ways they go to extremes.

As a concept, especially taken in the context of "Homo Sapiens is a tribal species" it explains WHY they go to extremes, allowing you to see the tribalism in Democrats, as well as in the US Marines, a fraternity, or a professional football team - as well as in Scientology and Anti-Scientology.

Tribalism, as a concept, allows for both the good and the bad of human groups.

Therefore, it is a much more truthful and useful term than "cult" in describing the phenomena we talk about on this board every day.
Euphemism is a substitute word that is milder.

Although your definition is hardly mild: "1. Blind loyalty 2. Blind hypocrisy 3. Cruelty."

Is Freedom magazine having articles about tribalism?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Euphemism is a substitute word that is milder.

Although your definition is hardly mild: "1. Blind loyalty 2. Blind hypocrisy 3. Cruelty."

Is Freedom magazine having articles about tribalism?
Euphemisms are not more accurate. They obfuscate the actual phenomenon being described.

Tribalism is more a comprehensive, and a more accurate, term which describes the phenomena way better than "cult'.
 
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Veda

Sponsor
Euphemisms are not more accurate. They obfuscate the actual phenomenon being described.

Tribalism is more a comprehensive, and a more accurate, term which describes the phenomena way better than "cult'.
Use the word "substitute" if that rings your bell.

"Blind loyalty." Mmmm...

Sounds like Hubbard's secret blueprint: "...asserting and maintaining dominion over thoughts and loyalties..."

You're saying anti-Scientologists are blindly loyal, cruel hypocrites.

Please clarify to what, or who, it is they are blindly loyal.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Use the word "substitute" if that rings your bell.

"Blind loyalty." Mmmm...

Sounds like Hubbard's secret blueprint: "...asserting and maintaining dominion over thoughts and loyalties..."

You're saying anti-Scientologists are blindly loyal, cruel hypocrites.

Please clarify to what, or who, it is they are blindly loyal.
In this case, these anti-scientologists are blindly loyal and cruel hypocrites in support of Mike Rinder and Leah Remini - specifically what are called - in the trade - Rinder Ninnies and Remini Ninnies:

Be sure to read the comments. Most of the outright threats of violence, and almost all of the attacks on Cathy Tweed, were never published by me. I figured she'd had a enough of that. What got through were the tame comments.

Remember, this is a mother who's daughter committed suicide. It is the ultimate in cruelty to blame a mother for her own daughter's suicide.

Cathy Tweed, Taylor Tweed's Mother, Speaks
 

Veda

Sponsor
In this case, these anti-scientologists are blindly loyal and cruel hypocrites in support of Mike Rinder and Leah Remini - specifically what are called - in the trade - Rinder Ninnies and Remini Ninnies:

Be sure to read the comments. Most of the outright threats of violence, and almost all of the attacks on Cathy Tweed, were never published by me. I figured she'd had a enough of that. What got through were the tame comments.

Remember, this is a mother who's daughter committed suicide. It is the ultimate in cruelty to blame a mother for her own daughter's suicide.

Cathy Tweed, Taylor Tweed's Mother, Speaks

So the anti-Scientologists have the characteristic of being blindly loyal and cruel.

Before Rinder and Remini came along, who were the anti-Scientologists blindly loyal to?

In 2015? In 2010? In 2005? In 2000? In 1995? In 1990? In 1985?

Let's see, in the year 2000 was it Mark Bunker?


271B8AE900000578-3015144-image-a-44_1427821159924.jpg

Scientology Parishioners Committee

_____________​

From the year 2000

Have you considered writing a history of anti-Scientology and anti-Scientologists?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
So the anti-Scientologists have the characteristic of being blindly loyal and cruel.

Before Rinder and Remini came along, who were the anti-Scientologists blindly loyal to?

In 2015? In 2010? In 2005? In 2000? In 1995? In 1990? In 1985?

Let's see, in the year 2000 was it Mark Bunker?


271B8AE900000578-3015144-image-a-44_1427821159924.jpg

Scientology Parishioners Committee

_____________​

From the year 2000

Have you considered writing a history of anti-Scientology and anti-Scientologists?
I don't think you've ever really gotten it. Neither here on ESMB, or on Reddit or anywhere else - no matter how much I've ever tried to explain myself to you. At some point - just like with Scientology ideologues - you don't waste your breath on them.

Alanzo first began writing about Scientology in the mid-1980’s on the Religions & Ethics section of the GEnie Bulletin Board service using a 2400 baud dial-up modem.

He’s been writing about Scientology, both in and out of the subject, since then.

When Alanzo left Scientology in 1999 and became a critic of them on the Internet, Scientology fair-gamed him and sought to redefine him as a “Suppressive Person” and a low-life scumbag who could not be trusted, or believed, or loved and supported, by anyone.

So, seeing what they did to him and to other Ex-Scientologists who spoke out, Alanzo became an Anti-Scientologist and worked with others for the next 15 years to 'expose the abuses' & criminal acts of Scientology, L Ron Hubbard, Scientology Technology & David Miscavige.

Then Alanzo started noticing the same blind loyalty, and the same blind hypocrisy, as well as the same cruelty, in Anti-Scientology that he'd earlier observed in Scientology.

He then applied the same critical thinking skills to Anti-Scientology that he'd earlier applied to Scientology. And he began writing about what he'd found.

And you know what? He got the same kinds of fair game actions from Anti-Scientologists as he'd earlier received from Scientology.

This was a revelatory set of experiences for Alanzo. All kinds of things became much plainer to him about cults and anti-cults, through a better understanding of social science and a much clearer view of human tribalism.

Alanzo has now seen the human tribalism that makes Scientology a cult alive and well in Anti-Scientology, too.

Because of his long experience both in Scientology & Anti-Scientology, Alanzo feels a somewhat lonely & quixotic duty to be an asshole in these matters: He has realized that being an Anti-Scientologist can be almost as damaging to an EX as Scientology was.

Maybe more.

He's also realized that, too often in life, you can have friends, or you can have the truth, but you can't have both.

So that's what Alanzo writes about now: Critical Thinking on Scientology & Anti-Scientology.
 

Veda

Sponsor
I don't think you've ever really gotten it. Neither here on ESMB, or on Reddit or anywhere else - no matter how much I've ever tried to explain myself to you. At some point - just like with Scientology ideologues - you don't waste your breath on them.

Alanzo first began writing about Scientology in the mid-1980’s on the Religions & Ethics section of the GEnie Bulletin Board service using a 2400 baud dial-up modem.

He’s been writing about Scientology, both in and out of the subject, since then.

When Alanzo left Scientology in 1999 and became a critic of them on the Internet, Scientology fair-gamed him and sought to redefine him as a “Suppressive Person” and a low-life scumbag who could not be trusted, or believed, or loved and supported, by anyone.

So, seeing what they did to him and to other Ex-Scientologists who spoke out, Alanzo became an Anti-Scientologist and worked with others for the next 15 years to 'expose the abuses' & criminal acts of Scientology, L Ron Hubbard, Scientology Technology & David Miscavige.

Then Alanzo started noticing the same blind loyalty, and the same blind hypocrisy, as well as the same cruelty, in Anti-Scientology that he'd earlier observed in Scientology.

He then applied the same critical thinking skills to Anti-Scientology that he'd earlier applied to Scientology. And he began writing about what he'd found.

And you know what? He got the same kinds of fair game actions from Anti-Scientologists as he'd earlier received from Scientology.

This was a revelatory set of experiences for Alanzo. All kinds of things became much plainer to him about cults and anti-cults, through a better understanding of social science and a much clearer view of human tribalism.

Alanzo has now seen the human tribalism that makes Scientology a cult alive and well in Anti-Scientology, too.

Because of his long experience both in Scientology & Anti-Scientology, Alanzo feels a somewhat lonely & quixotic duty to be an asshole in these matters: He has realized that being an Anti-Scientologist can be almost as damaging to an EX as Scientology was.

Maybe more.

He's also realized that, too often in life, you can have friends, or you can have the truth, but you can't have both.

So that's what Alanzo writes about now: Critical Thinking on Scientology & Anti-Scientology.
You left in 1999. Who was the leader of the anti-Scientologists in the year 2000?

They had to have given their blind loyalty to someone in the year 2000. Who? Can you remind us?

How about their cruelty in the year 2000? Can you tell us about that?

C'mon, write that history!
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
In lieu of the non response from Alanzo...

Tribalism is a euphemism for cultism.
Hmmm. Blind loyal cruel hypocrites. Oh, and hysterical cultist tribal ninny failures. So much warm humanity is flowing about it just tingles right to the heart. Amazingly inspiring and empowering reading the kindest of regards. I have no doubt those words will be a Hallmark card mainstay just in time for the Holidays. I have nothing but gratitude for being the recipient of obviously compassionate labels. I had no idea fair game is so empathetic and the joy of reading it here of all places is beyond words. Joie de vivre!
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
You left in 1999. Who was the leader of the anti-Scientologists in the year 2000?

They had to have given their blind loyalty to someone in the year 2000. Who? Can you remind us?

How about their cruelty in the year 2000? Can you tell us about that?

C'mon, write that history!
For me it was Arnie Lerma and Bob Minton. I was loyal to him and hated anyone criticising him. I got out in 2001 but read pretty much everything before I entered the fray on a.r.s, and it was Arnie who I looked up to, and Bob and Gerry. But then people started calling out Arnie on a few things, mostly to do with his support of Minton. War broke out because either Bob Minton was a turncoat or Bob Minton was a hero. No in betweens. No nuance. The critics of Minton were in the minority and bashed very heavily, but then when he gave up, all the piling on switched to Minton, except for Arnie and a few loyalists.

You may see it differently to me Veda, but that's how I saw it.

Minton was a hero until he wasn't.
Marty was a hero until he wasn't.
Mike is a hero, but his story isn't finished. I hope he ends up a hero.

I realised there is no such thing as a hero. It's perception only.
 

Gib

Crusader
I don't think you've ever really gotten it. Neither here on ESMB, or on Reddit or anywhere else - no matter how much I've ever tried to explain myself to you. At some point - just like with Scientology ideologues - you don't waste your breath on them.

Alanzo first began writing about Scientology in the mid-1980’s on the Religions & Ethics section of the GEnie Bulletin Board service using a 2400 baud dial-up modem.

He’s been writing about Scientology, both in and out of the subject, since then.

When Alanzo left Scientology in 1999 and became a critic of them on the Internet, Scientology fair-gamed him and sought to redefine him as a “Suppressive Person” and a low-life scumbag who could not be trusted, or believed, or loved and supported, by anyone.

So, seeing what they did to him and to other Ex-Scientologists who spoke out, Alanzo became an Anti-Scientologist and worked with others for the next 15 years to 'expose the abuses' & criminal acts of Scientology, L Ron Hubbard, Scientology Technology & David Miscavige.

Then Alanzo started noticing the same blind loyalty, and the same blind hypocrisy, as well as the same cruelty, in Anti-Scientology that he'd earlier observed in Scientology.

He then applied the same critical thinking skills to Anti-Scientology that he'd earlier applied to Scientology. And he began writing about what he'd found.

And you know what? He got the same kinds of fair game actions from Anti-Scientologists as he'd earlier received from Scientology.

This was a revelatory set of experiences for Alanzo. All kinds of things became much plainer to him about cults and anti-cults, through a better understanding of social science and a much clearer view of human tribalism.

Alanzo has now seen the human tribalism that makes Scientology a cult alive and well in Anti-Scientology, too.

Because of his long experience both in Scientology & Anti-Scientology, Alanzo feels a somewhat lonely & quixotic duty to be an asshole in these matters: He has realized that being an Anti-Scientologist can be almost as damaging to an EX as Scientology was.

Maybe more.

He's also realized that, too often in life, you can have friends, or you can have the truth, but you can't have both.

So that's what Alanzo writes about now: Critical Thinking on Scientology & Anti-Scientology.
ok Alanzo, you stated this:

"This was a revelatory set of experiences for Alanzo. All kinds of things became much plainer to him about cults and anti-cults, through a better understanding of social science and a much clearer view of human tribalism.

Alanzo has now seen the human tribalism that makes Scientology a cult alive and well in Anti-Scientology, too.

Because of his long experience both in Scientology & Anti-Scientology, Alanzo feels a somewhat lonely & quixotic duty to be an asshole in these matters: He has realized that being an Anti-Scientologist can be almost as damaging to an EX as Scientology was."

---------------------

so you have a better understanding of cults and anti cults.

so you state human tribalism that makes scientology a cult. So what is the human tribalism that made scientology a cult?

you also state that as well in the anti-scientology. so what is the human tribalism that made a anti-scientology cult?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
so you state human tribalism that makes scientology a cult. So what is the human tribalism that made scientology a cult?

you also state that as well in the anti-scientology. so what is the human tribalism that made a anti-scientology cult?
Same one.

Human beings are a tribal species.
 
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