Coming to terms

[Danger Turnip]

I just realized something: I would not be here were it not for Scientology.

I am the end product of the sad, desperate fumblings of two lonely staff members blindly groping for a connection to someone other than LRH.

*shudder*

And I guess that's an example of where I am in my "coming out" process. I am frighteningly aware through all the torment and suffering, that there were good points. And somehow, that's the hardest for me to accept. Were it not for Scientology, I would not be the man I am today. I've never tried any drug, I don't drink, I'm responsible in spite of my age...I wouldn't change any of it. It's strange hating something that played such an integral part in my upbringing. Without all of those obstacles, who knows how I'd have turned out.

Has anyone else had trouble coming to terms with the (few) good results of Scientology, be they from the tech or personal change and experiences?

 

[Zinjifar]

I just realized something: I would not be here were it not for Scientology.

I am the end product of the sad, desperate fumblings of two lonely staff members blindly groping for a connection to someone other than LRH.

*shudder*

And I guess that's an example of where I am in my "coming out" process. I am frighteningly aware through all the torment and suffering, that there were good points. And somehow, that's the hardest for me to accept. Were it not for Scientology, I would not be the man I am today. I've never tried any drug, I don't drink, I'm responsible in spite of my age...I wouldn't change any of it. It's strange hating something that played such an integral part in my upbringing. Without all of those obstacles, who knows how I'd have turned out.

Has anyone else had trouble coming to terms with the (few) good results of Scientology, be they from the tech or personal change and experiences?

Without ever having been a Scientologist, your 'cog' is a universal one

Accepting your own 'back story' is essential to life itself, but, there's a 'secondary' cog that you may or may not find; You were already your essential elements *before* your experience put labels all over it.

Zinj

 

[scooter]

I had four sessions of co-audit back in 1979 that changed my life around - had I walked away then I would've probably had a great life without scientology.

I stayed, looking for more - for 30 years almost

Had I not, I doubt that I'd be married with my children today, and that's something I wouldn't want to change.

Life just is, and it happens. It's like surfing.

Every wave is different and you get good days and bad days.

There'll always be waves to ride somewhere so enjoy them now.

You won't ever have a chance to catch THAT wave again.

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Points well made...

I just realized something: I would not be here were it not for Scientology.

...snip...

Has anyone else had trouble coming to terms with the (few) good results of Scientology, be they from the tech or personal change and experiences?

Without ever having been a Scientologist, your 'cog' is a universal one

Accepting your own 'back story' is essential to life itself, but, there's a 'secondary' cog that you may or may not find; You were already your essential elements *before* your experience put labels all over it.

Zinj

I think Zinj's reply is "spot on" The only thing I might add is that in my life, I have come to terms with it much better than my non/never scio wife, who still has all the wasted money and time more or less "in her face" and seems not to want to simply get over it! :confused2:

Good posting!

EP

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I just realized something: I would not be here were it not for Scientology.

I am the end product of the sad, desperate fumblings of two lonely staff members blindly groping for a connection to someone other than LRH.

*shudder*

And I guess that's an example of where I am in my "coming out" process. I am frighteningly aware through all the torment and suffering, that there were good points. And somehow, that's the hardest for me to accept. Were it not for Scientology, I would not be the man I am today. I've never tried any drug, I don't drink, I'm responsible in spite of my age...I wouldn't change any of it. It's strange hating something that played such an integral part in my upbringing. Without all of those obstacles, who knows how I'd have turned out.

Has anyone else had trouble coming to terms with the (few) good results of Scientology, be they from the tech or personal change and experiences?

I know of people who are also the offspring of Scio staff members that DID turn to drugs and sex and R and R ... you didn't ... but you could have.

Give yourself the credit (because credit IS due) for being the man you now are.

Scio is not all bad but it is you that is true cause over your life.

 

[Carmel]

<snip>
Has anyone else had trouble coming to terms with the (few) good results of Scientology, be they from the tech or personal change and experiences?

Personally no, but then there are many who seem to have.

I have trouble with people attempting to deny any and all benefit from Scn, and I have trouble watching others who are in denial about any possible gains they may have made in Scn - denial of truth whether good or bad, isn't much chop, IMO.

The pendulum tends to swing, but eventually, unless ya keep it pegged at one end, it seems to settle somewhere in the middle.

 

[Kathy (ImOut)]

I agree or understand all of the responses, thus far.

GT and I had this discussion last night - for each of us Scn (being involved) went beyond it's expiration date. It's those leftovers in the fridge that you just don't throw out no matter how bad it gets.

But if GT had gotten out when she thought she "should have" - we would have never met.

If I'd gotten when I "should have" I would have never met my husband.

I'm a firm believer in "everything happens for a reason". And there is a lesson or several lessons to be learned from every experience. Whether good or bad, we learn from what we live in life. If we're lucky enough to learn from our experiences.

 

[Telepathetic]

Without ever having been a Scientologist, your 'cog' is a universal one

Accepting your own 'back story' is essential to life itself, but, there's a 'secondary' cog that you may or may not find; You were already your essential elements *before* your experience put labels all over it.

Zinj

Damn...that's right on the mark


TP

 

[fogfreetimes2]

In awe!

Danger turnip-I have a feeling the strong person you are today is the extension of the strong person you always have been. Many things in life can influence us to grow or to shrink. You have taken the high road to build on your underlying strength and I know you will will use this strength to go further in life. Use your past experiences in life, whether good or bad to shape your future. I only see good things for you!!!!!! No, this is not an OT ability I have, your story shows just how amazing you are.

 

[Alanzo]

I just realized something: I would not be here were it not for Scientology.

I am the end product of the sad, desperate fumblings of two lonely staff members blindly groping for a connection to someone other than LRH.

*shudder*

And I guess that's an example of where I am in my "coming out" process. I am frighteningly aware through all the torment and suffering, that there were good points. And somehow, that's the hardest for me to accept. Were it not for Scientology, I would not be the man I am today. I've never tried any drug, I don't drink, I'm responsible in spite of my age...I wouldn't change any of it. It's strange hating something that played such an integral part in my upbringing. Without all of those obstacles, who knows how I'd have turned out.

Has anyone else had trouble coming to terms with the (few) good results of Scientology, be they from the tech or personal change and experiences?

Yes.

For me it is a daily struggle to seek to live with the truth.

I too have come to see the destruction that I cause to myself by being bitter and vengeful to something that I was part of for so long, and which influenced me so heavily.

That has led me to become less militant about all this, and to realize that Scientology has a relative danger, and a relative destructiveness - somewhere between a 50 megaton thermo-nuclear device and a bowl of spinach.

If you allow yourself only two possible conclusions: right or wrong, black or white, true or false, then you tend to get stuck in either one or the other. And the struggle comes when you become aware of bits that don't fit into the particular bin you are presently occupying.

If Scientology is all TRUE, then the enforced abortions and the destroyed families don't fit.

And if it's all FALSE, then the wins - the real wins - that you actually did have don't fit either.

That's why you need to add two more possible conclusions:

BOTH TRUE AND FALSE and NEITHER TRUE NOR FALSE.

So now you have allowed yourself 4 possible conclusions about things in life:

a. TRUE
b. FALSE
c. BOTH TRUE AND FALSE
d. NEITHER TRUE NOR FALSE

This is called tetralemmic logic, or 4-valued logic.

To me, it corresponds to real life much more easily. And it allows you to finally conclude things about Scientology that don't keep bothering you forever.

Scientology is both true and false. Lots of things in life are actually like that. If you can allow yourself to conclude that, then you have allowed yourself to live with the truth.

And you can move on.

 

[Dulloldfart]

That's why you need to add two more possible conclusions:

BOTH TRUE AND FALSE and NEITHER TRUE NOR FALSE.

So now you have allowed yourself 4 possible conclusions about things in life:

a. TRUE
b. FALSE
c. BOTH TRUE AND FALSE
d. NEITHER TRUE NOR FALSE

This is called tetralemmic logic, or 4-valued logic.

Why is this so complex? I don't understand it.

Why can't you have some bits are true-ish and some bits are false-ish? Even drop the ishes if you want.

Paul

 

[Megalomaniac]

Wow, not much I can add. I agree with most of the above posts. Zinj's post rubbed me the wrong way, but he's right.

I notice a tendency in myself to try to be certain about a conclusion, such as "That sucked! I'm pissed off!" I find myself searching out and clinging to evidence to support my conclusion. I'm better off not trying to be certain and just keep looking and thinking. The certainty will come or maybe it won't, but at least I won't be blinded by pretending to have found the conclusion/answer before I really have. Sorry if that's a weird answer.

I've had other similar experiences at work. At least twice, I've hired on with a company, VERY grateful to have even been hired, and gaining valuable experience that I never would have gotten otherwise (maybe :confused2: ), only to find out that the boss is much less of a man than I thought and end up giving back far more than I received. And I'm left wondering, how much do I owe the boss? How much does he owe me?

I've had great wins in Scientology. I am very grateful to have avoided drugs, to have been taught at least some idea of morality. I could go on and on. But at this point, I don't "owe the boss man" nuthin'. He owes me some answers, and then I'm moving on.

 

[Alanzo]

Why is this so complex? I don't understand it.

Why can't you have some bits are true-ish and some bits are false-ish? Even drop the ishes if you want.

Paul

I don't think it's complex at all.

 

[Danger Turnip]

Wow, those were some very insightful posts. I'm doing a way better job looking at it as any other exprience, that life happens and you get good things out of it as well as bad. I think I've held Scientology on this pedestal for way too long so I've always looked at my time in it as "different" than anything else and therefore impossible to figure it out with "normal" logic. And I think that's given it way too much power over me.

 

[Daisy]

I realized after getting out that, scientology always wants a person to believe that all the bad things about yourself are your case (and scientology can help you with that) and all the good things about you are because of scientology. Basically, the cult is always telling you that you are worthless.

You know all those good qualities you have, it's you.

 

[Tiger Lily]

I'm a firm believer in "everything happens for a reason". And there is a lesson or several lessons to be learned from every experience. Whether good or bad, we learn from what we live in life. If we're lucky enough to learn from our experiences.

Ditto!!

 

[Carmel]

Without ever having been a Scientologist, your 'cog' is a universal one

Accepting your own 'back story' is essential to life itself, but, there's a 'secondary' cog that you may or may not find; You were already your essential elements *before* your experience put labels all over it.

Zinj

I read this, and again this 'premise' hit me in the face. For me this one still has a bit of a mystery about it. I do believe that we each have our "essential" elements, that were, and will be, but then somehow "our own back story" is also essential to that (as stated).

While maybe destined, without our experiences we wouldn't be what we are. Whatever "labels" these experiences may have or whatever they happened to be, they are still what they are and very much part of the picture (labels or no labels).

 

[Axiom142]

...

Scientology is both true and false. Lots of things in life are actually like that. If you can allow yourself to conclude that, then you have allowed yourself to live with the truth.

And you can move on.

Have you moved on Alanzo?

How did that feel?

Axiom142

 

[Tiger Lily]

Yes.

For me it is a daily struggle to seek to live with the truth.

I too have come to see the destruction that I cause to myself by being bitter and vengeful to something that I was part of for so long, and which influenced me so heavily.

That has led me to become less militant about all this, and to realize that Scientology has a relative danger, and a relative destructiveness - somewhere between a 50 megaton thermo-nuclear device and a bowl of spinach.

If you allow yourself only two possible conclusions: right or wrong, black or white, true or false, then you tend to get stuck in either one or the other. And the struggle comes when you become aware of bits that don't fit into the particular bin you are presently occupying.

If Scientology is all TRUE, then the enforced abortions and the destroyed families don't fit.

And if it's all FALSE, then the wins - the real wins - that you actually did have don't fit either.

That's why you need to add two more possible conclusions:

BOTH TRUE AND FALSE and NEITHER TRUE NOR FALSE.

So now you have allowed yourself 4 possible conclusions about things in life:

a. TRUE
b. FALSE
c. BOTH TRUE AND FALSE
d. NEITHER TRUE NOR FALSE

This is called tetralemmic logic, or 4-valued logic.

To me, it corresponds to real life much more easily. And it allows you to finally conclude things about Scientology that don't keep bothering you forever.

Scientology is both true and false. Lots of things in life are actually like that. If you can allow yourself to conclude that, then you have allowed yourself to live with the truth.

And you can move on.

That is so true!! For Scientology and life in general . . .(political parties come immediately to mind; and various world religions). You need to acknowledge the good in the bad and vice-versa or the whole world becomes a "pick a position and assert your rightness" game where you are forced to disregard data in order to make your argument work. Obviously, without all the data, you can't see the truth.

That was what trapped me in Scientology -- I made it black and white, and chose only to look at the white. Once I saw that there was black there, I only saw black for a while. Once I started to read here, I started to put together the whole picture. Now I'm starting to be able to think with it.

TL

 

[Free to shine]

Without ever having been a Scientologist, your 'cog' is a universal one

Accepting your own 'back story' is essential to life itself, but, there's a 'secondary' cog that you may or may not find; You were already your essential elements *before* your experience put labels all over it.

Zinj

What do you mean by "back story"? Who you are before any scientology influence?

What happens when you are involved from a young age?

I am not afraid to say that I did not have wins or life changing experiences from scientology technology in nearly 4 decades.

Not one, despite the many success stories and the apparent surface agreement. The only time I can recall feeling really good within myself was on some rundown after a "what has been suppressed?" question, where I cried and cried and while not telling the auditor the reason for that emotion was the release of years of it that I had been unable to express! And yes, I had plenty of auditing and training. I had grades every which way, a great many hours of Dianetics, many rundowns of all kinds, including a pilot one (probably L10) C/Sd by LRH. Luckily I was just too hopeless to get onto OT levels, thank goodness.

I did what I had to survive within the group and produced what was expected of me, and any good feelings seemed to come from that acceptance. Deep within I knew that there was nothing new here, despite my hopes for each new action, and that there was no way in hell I could ever voice that as then I would be a No Case Gain. During one intensive I had the supposed "Clear cognition" in some form, however that was me saying I could not do this anymore...try and find "case" in the order of the "Bridge"! I could just not try and mock things up that I was supposed to have.

Oh yes, scientology certainly taught me things. Like how to pretend to be something I wasn't - a happy little vegemite within the group. It taught me to work hard, harder than you believe you ever can. It taught me that I was essentially worthless and that when I left I was the scum of the earth.

The thing it didn't take away is my essential integrity, and with the help and support of many non scientology friends over the last decade, I can now see how that ethical viewpoint on life IS me and how it shaped my life and helped me survive.

I know my experiences are my experiences and I am quite happy to accept that people really did have wins from the 'tech'. I saw it happen and although I can't say how long it lasted for those people, I would like to think it wasn't in vain. We are all different and IMO learning different lessons on our own individual paths. My particular lessons seems to have been more in the realm of not looking to other people or "ologies" to confirm my gifts and abilities, or dictate my life. I hope that by writing this there are people who felt like I did, particularly those of us raised within the cult and having our lives defined by the need to be part of it for the sake of family, and I want them to know they are not alone.

Of course there can't be a black and white universal view here. Our individual journeys are to examine those shades of grey for ourselves and work out who we are apart from the definitions supplied to us. It's fun - now.