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Our 'experience' in Scn - Different for each of us!

Carmel

Crusader
There can be and is an inclination by some, to label all of our experiences in Scn as the ‘same’ and put everyone in the same box. They weren’t, and we are not. We all had different experiences while involved in Scn, and for one to assume or presume that he or she knows what another's experience was, or ‘will be’ after ‘out’, is rather ‘blinkered’ IMO. It was different for each and every one of us. As ‘exes’, we’re not all going to end up sitting in the same ‘place’. As we all had different paths while in, we too will have different paths while out.

Yes, there was a common theme (as there is/was for everything in life), but time frames, location and 'mentors' (among other things) and who we ‘are’, have all contributed to the ‘experience’ being different for each and every one of us. Our experiences were unique, just the same as they will be in the future. Being put in a ‘box’ or category, and the labelling of where someone is at or where they will be, just because they were a scn’ist, is just gross IMO, and irksome for many on the receiving end of it. Call it what ya will, but ‘wrong indications’ can just really piss one off!

I wrote up parts of ‘my story’, but didn’t get around to finishing it. The following isn’t a continuation of it, but it’s a summary of my ‘experience’ while ‘in’ and ‘out’, in a nutshell.

- Is my current viewpoint about the whole scene different now to what it was when I first got on the net last year?.....Absolutely.

- Nine months ago, did I think that my viewpoint would or could change so radically?.....No, not at all.

- Did I get sucked in to thinking that I needed Scientology?.....Yes I did.

- Did I use to think that Scientology had the answer to everything?.....Yes I did.

- Did I consider that LRH was some kind of deity?.....No I didn't.

- Did I trust that LRH only had good intentions for us?.....Yes I did.

- Did I believe everything LRH said, and take it on board?.....No I didn't.

- Was I in ‘denial’ about some of the ‘tech’ that I didn’t like, and did I alter ‘importances’ on it, to give it an interpretation that I could agree with?.....Probably, yes.

- As C/S did I have a hell of a time trying to make it all fit and work?.....Yes, I did.

- Did I have a false concept of who and what LRH was?.....Yes I did.

- In ’86 did I believe that LRH was infallible and that he left intentionally as promoted?.....No I didn’t, not at all.

- Was I “dedicated Scientologist”?.....Absolutely.

- Did I think everybody needed Scientology?.....Yes I did.

- Was one of my major goals to get up the bridge?.....No it wasn't, I considered that getting up the bridge would help me attain my goals.

- Did I consider that Scientology was a religion?.....No I didn't. I considered Scn a set of tools that could help one change conditions for the better.

- Did I make gains from Scn auditing and processing?.....Yes, absolutely.

- Did I become more capable after the Scn training I did?.....Yes, absolutely.

- Could those capabilities have come about if I didn't do Scn?.....I don't know, but I don’t think so.

- Did some Scn auditing have an adverse affect on me?.....Yes it did.

- Did ethics, justice, and other interrogatory type cycles have an adverse affect on me?.....Yes they did.

- Has the use of what I have learned or gained in Scn, benefited my kids and others?.....Yes, absolutely.

- Did pressure to comply to ‘group think’ have an adverse affect on me?.....Yes it did.

- Did I buy into the "party lines" constantly forwarded by the majority?.....No I didn't.

- Was I adversely affected emotionally over the crap I got for not buying into them?.....Yes I was, absolutely, and probably I still am to some degree.

- When I became a mum, did I consider that being a mum was my most important hat in life and did I wear that hat to the best of my ability despite major shit and crap for doing so?.....Yes I did.

- Did the crap I received over putting my kids first cause me much angst?.....Yes it did

- Have I felt guilty over the fact that at times I was in no emotional state to be a mother?.....Yes I have.

- Did I ever think that it wasn’t good to be critical, or ever feel guilty about feeling critical?.....No, never ever!

- Did I maintain my own moral code, or belief in what I felt was ethical or not, despite having next to no agreement on what I thought?.....Yes, I did.

- Did I think that I should be in agreement with people in very senior positions?.....Prior to ’82, yes at times, but not after ’82.

- Did the fact that most who I worked with saw things differently to me, change my thinking or deter me from action on a given course?.....No, it didn’t, although it did cause me much angst.

- Did I yearn for agreement?.....Yes I did, because I didn’t ever get much, and sometimes that broke my heart.

- As ED did I forward the crap that SO mgt terminals put on me, to my staff?.....No I didn’t, I protected them from it, just like my seniors protected me from it in the very early ‘80’s.

- Did I ever trust DM?.....No, never.

- Did I believe the PR lines forwarded by mgt at events?.....Not since ’82, but nor did I disbelieve them. I didn’t know what to believe, ‘cause I wasn’t in a position to have the true data. From around '95 onwards, I pretty well disbelieved anything and everything they said.

- Did I subject myself to abuse?.....Yes, I did, and for too long.

- Did I hold my space when I was subjected to crap from senior CofS mgt terminals?.....On the outside yes, but not always on the inside.

- Did I compromise what I believed in to ‘fit in’ or to make the ride easier?.....No I didn’t. When I was put into a position where I was being 'forced' to (in '97/'98), I left. Prior to that, although it was difficult, I didn’t have to compromise.

- Did I cling to a false hope, and was I in denial about the real scene with the CofS?.....Yes, for a period of time I did and I was, despite the fact that the real scene was staring me in the face. I didn’t or wouldn’t confront it.

- Do I consider the benefits of my time in Scn outweigh the negatives? .....Yes, in abundance.

- Am I thankful for my time in Scn?.....Yes, absolutely.

- Would I ever “go there” again?.....Absolutely not.

- Do I still use what I learnt in scn to the benefit of myself, my family and others? .....Yes I do, without question.

- Am I still somewhat adversely affected from things that affected me during my time in Scn?.....Most probably, yes.

The above is how it was and is for me, from my perspective. It would also be real to my close friends who worked with me in the CofS.

I don’t think it is fair or wise to negate the experience of another, or to presume where another is 'at' or will be 'at', BECAUSE, you aren’t them and you didn’t experience what they experienced!
 
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programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
Carmel,

If you had a time-machine, and knowing what you know now, would you go back and do the staff thing all over again?

Given 20-20 hind-site, what would you do differently than you did way back then?

Just curious. :)

Please take your time in answering (if you so choose to answer). I don't want a quicky answer.
 

Carmel

Crusader
Carmel,

If you had a time-machine, and knowing what you know now, would you go back and do the staff thing all over again?

Given 20-20 hind-site, what would you do differently than you did way back then?

<snip>
No I wouldn't, I'm not that masochistic! It was a bloody rough ride, it nearly killed me a couple of times, and it left me in a very sad and lonely place for a decade before I found the net and ESMB.

On the other hand, nor could or would I want to throw away, what I have gained from it. I was in positions where I had to learn to swim, or I'd sink. I had a 'purpose', that gave me the impetus to step up and face or confront and deal with things, in a way that I didn't think I was capable of. It made me demand things of myself, that I don't know that I would have ever done, without it. Through the people I worked with, what I studied, what I learnt and what I had to contend with, I gained much. I don't see how I could have gained the same if I chose a different path in life.

I would never go back, nor tell another to go there. To risky too, too painful - but then again, as they say, "no pain, no gain".

I'm still undecided as to how all this fits, and am still looking at all this. I don't think I'd ever regret my time in Scn. I wouldn't wish the actual "experience" of it, on my worst enemy, but then I would wish for the increase in capabilities and insight that the "experience" gave me.
 

Good twin

Floater
Thank you for this post Carmel. I love you more than I can say and even more than before. This is a completely and totally raw account of who you are and how you got here. You are so real and amazing.

We are who we are, huh?

GT
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
Carmel,

Yeah, I have had some of the same thoughts for years. However I think that I could have gotten the same experience (without cult) from military boot camp or other ways.

Looking back, is there anything that you would have done differently while in SCN?
 

Tiger Lily

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hi Carmel,

Good post. It is easy to assume that our personal experience is universal. Though there are similarities, we all got in for our own reasons with our own "agenda's" for what we wanted to accomplish, and had different experiences when in.

Your list of questions -- some of them would have been different for me, many the same. One of the same ones is the fact that I don't regret anything; am glad for what I learned; it made me who I am now. But I wouldn't choose that path again, if I knew then what I know now. My life would have been very different.

I sure wish I had a crystal ball to see where my life would have been had I not chosen the road less taken . . .but I'm a better person now than I was then, because I'm wiser and humbler. . . so I'll accept that, appreciate it, and keep on goin'.

:)TL
 

Wisened One

Crusader
Wow Carmel: VERY good post! And it helped me, too! :yes:

I also notice how just because we're each out, does not mean that now we no longer care for others nor wish to help them. (imho).

When I had first *left*, I really strugged with the label of SP (inside, I mean, if scn had known at that time that I *left* ya know?). I realized then and there that NO, GOD DAMN YOU, I am NOT an SP AT ALL! I am NOT *evil* nor *hate* my fellow man nor want them to *fail* or *suffer* etc, etc.

I am NOT a '2 percenter' just 'cuz I am no longer a scn, ya know?

GOD that played with my head for a while, ya know? :no:

And when I maintained and reclaimed my own space after all those realizations, it rehabbed my love again. My help, again adn yes, my own purpose again...that I can hold my head up and LIVE LIFE confidently AS a deserving human being and STILL help (in general).

Ahhhhhhhh. :cloud9:

Michelle
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
TigerLily said:
But I wouldn't choose that path again, if I knew then what I know now. My life would have been very different.

If you were to speak up front to a room full of teenagers about Scientology what would you say to them?

Let's assume that your words would determine (or heavily influence) their decision to be involved in Scientology or not. What would you say?
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
That's true, Carmel, but time and time again, I've seen people deride the experience of others because one of the parties hadn't been in the SO or had a different perspective. So you're going to get a lot of nods and yesses and all that but some of those same people doing so are not really going to pay attention to that.
 
I think the OP is a good post.

I think the "questioning" that people do is a healthy thing though. Sometimes people need to question very thoroughly to find out exactly what was going on, because they were prevented from thinking their own thoughts "inside". That may involve disbelief in what someone else says they experienced. The questioner may have been forced to do things against there own wishes and may not understand that another EX was in different circumstances. And people sometimes find that their own perceptions about their own experiences changes too. Leaving them with the conclusion that they were unable to see the truth of their own experience on some issue.

None of this is to argue with anything in the OP. I'm saying that people may question things because they are now wanting to question question and question some more because thats what they did not do in the cult.

I think a lot of us may have similar lists to Carmel, of things we accepted fully, some partially and some not at all.
And she mentioned something about which she just didn't know. I had one or two of those too.
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
If you were to speak up front to a room full of teenagers about Scientology what would you say to them?

Let's assume that your words would determine (or heavily influence) their decision to be involved in Scientology or not. What would you say?

I'd say get on the net and learn all about the negatives and positives of what the cult is, don't just take my word for it.

Go chat to a scilon or three, take a tour of the local org (if there is one) but look closely at what is there instead of what's being said is there.

Read a book or five, if you are interested.

THEN talk to me privately about what you've found out and I'll give you more info on it.

Above all, don't commit to anything until you've explored it thoroughly.

It would be easier and less painful for you to get out of a disastrous marriage or a prison than the cult.
 

Carmel

Crusader
<snip>
Looking back, is there anything that you would have done differently while in SCN?
Absolutely!

I shouldn't have been so obstinate about winning every battle, and I should have realised that ya don't show your 'hand' to the enemy.

In my naivity, I thought that the way to play the game, was to put all my cards on the table, and in doing so, they would understand, and hopefully 'come round'. That got me in the poo unnecessarily too many times, and gave them the upper hand to try and squash me or stop me.

I always rejected the concept of PR, or couldn't see the value in it or didn't like it. If I had used PR, then I would have gotten a lot further than I did in dealing with my adversaries, when working on worthwhile and honest endeavours.

I had this idea, that I could never give in, or be seen to be doing so. On many ethics and justice cycles, I would have been better off if I just lied to them, told them what they wanted to hear, but then just covertly believed what I believed. I could have then been left in peace to do what I wanted to do. Somehow back then though, I thought that this would have been compromising my integrity, which it wouldn't have been. And, with whatever one is doing, ya don't have to win every battle to win the war.

And what about you? Is there anything you would have done differently while in Scn?
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
scooter said:
THEN talk to me privately about what you've found out and I'll give you more info on it.

This is a most telling statement. Why can't you just be up front and honest about it? Just tell them up front what you think. Or is this a no-no in our modern society?
 

Carmel

Crusader
Wow Carmel: VERY good post! And it helped me, too! :yes:

I also notice how just because we're each out, does not mean that now we no longer care for others nor wish to help them. (imho).

When I had first *left*, I really strugged with the label of SP (inside, I mean, if scn had known at that time that I *left* ya know?). I realized then and there that NO, GOD DAMN YOU, I am NOT an SP AT ALL! I am NOT *evil* nor *hate* my fellow man nor want them to *fail* or *suffer* etc, etc.

I am NOT a '2 percenter' just 'cuz I am no longer a scn, ya know?

GOD that played with my head for a while, ya know? :no:

And when I maintained and reclaimed my own space after all those realizations, it rehabbed my love again. My help, again adn yes, my own purpose again...that I can hold my head up and LIVE LIFE confidently AS a deserving human being and STILL help (in general).

Ahhhhhhhh. :cloud9:

Michelle

Yeah Michelle, I get it - what a bloody bugger of a thing to be going through that in the first place, but how good is it to be free of it and be where you are now! :buzzin: Good on you girl! :thumbsup:
 

Carmel

Crusader
That's true, Carmel, but time and time again, I've seen people deride the experience of others because one of the parties hadn't been in the SO or had a different perspective. So you're going to get a lot of nods and yesses and all that but some of those same people doing so are not really going to pay attention to that.

Thanks Fluffy, I know this, but at least I've got something off my chest that's been eating at me for a while now. People can take it or leave it, and I know they will. I feel better as a result of putting it out there, and it may assist a couple of others to (whether directly or indirectly), so all good I reckon. :)
 
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programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
Carmel said:
And what about you? Is there anything you would have done differently while in Scn?

You mean knowing what I know now?

I would go straight to Bent Corydon and say point blank:
What is this shit about staff pay and hardly being able to make ends meet! I have been living in your basement with a dozen other staff and others are roommates just barely paying their rent and utilities. I could go to work at MacDonald's and do better than this crap!

I thought that Scientology is supposed to make the Able more Able and yet here we are in endless poverty as staff with no end of this in sight. Do you get my point, Bent! No, I didn't think so.

I work 60+ hours per week and get shit for pay! This is NOT making the Able more Able. This just cripples the Able. No one is winning this game! Any statements to the contrary is just more PR bullshit!

I resign.
 

Tiger Lily

Gold Meritorious Patron
If you were to speak up front to a room full of teenagers about Scientology what would you say to them?

Let's assume that your words would determine (or heavily influence) their decision to be involved in Scientology or not. What would you say?

That is a great question . . . especially since I have teenage kids and taught high school students; so I know them pretty well.

With teens you can't tell them NOT to do something (I don't need to elaborate do I?).

I would tell them that my involvement with Scientology started well, but that when it turned sour I had allowed myself to be blinded by my ego, and could no longer think for myself. I would tell them about the money I spent, and how I was talked into believing that it would come back to me 10fold because of my new abilities. I would tell them it ended up being very harmful, and that it resulted from a gradient of little agreements until I got lazy and just believed things without evaluating them.

I would tell them how gullible the ego is, if it's fed.

I would tell them that there are groups out there that prey on the "vision" of youth; who will take advantage of their enthusiasm and confidence and desire to change themselves and the world. I would give them a list of things to look for:

1. "love bombing" including flattery about how much better (smarter, bigger) they are than anyone else.

2. A group that warns you against something but yet does it themselves (many of the characteristics of an SP are modeled well by the CofS -- cut comm, negative comm, altering to worsen communication, wrong targets. . )

3. Encouraging you to go into debt, especially for something you aren't sure what the outcome will be.

4. Anything that cuts you off from your family, or that makes you feel superior to family and friends.


OH jeez . . . I thought this would be a short list and it just keeps on going. . . there's more, it's getting boring it's just a recap of what you read here every day . . . . .

I would tell them about the number of higher level Scientologists who realized it didn't work and left.

I would tell them to be careful about believing things just because you want them to be true.

I would end with telling them that they have a natural "BS indicator" and they need to listen to it; and never ever give their determinism over to someone else. That they need to use that BS indicator in life, not just Scn.

This question actually has me going; it would be interesting to put together a "cult awareness" program for teens. . . I probably would tweak that, but the basics are there.

-TL
 
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