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ugh.

nozeno

Gold Meritorious Patron
I agree with what Carmel has posted here. :yes:

Without the use of a headset, and even alone in the library, the use of a computer playing music is not really good manners. :no:

And on another note, I have the sneaking suspicion that troll(s) are being fed liberally on this thread and others! :melodramatic:

EP

You are wise beyond your years EP.

I smell a

brown-rat-3789.jpg
 

nozeno

Gold Meritorious Patron
Wow, that's some real sweet welcome party here.

"Tell us your story! THAT SOUNDS LIKE A CROCK OF SHIT, TROLL!"

You lose nothing, nothing being polite to people online. You in fact waste more of your precious time ranting at them. Aeval has been here what? a day? And you've already determined that she's not worth being nice to? This is not a good way to make friends and influence people.

OSAOSAOSA much?

Some of us are naturally more suspicious and perhaps a little more perceptive since we've seen what is behind the curtain.
 

Tiger Lily

Gold Meritorious Patron
I suppose since Aeval is new here and hasn't developed a "trust" level yet, people are understandably cautious, and this kind of post can stir people up, as it has here.

But, I'm going to assume face value and say it's an accurate account. When I read the OP I was kind of surprised that music was allowed at all. Honestly I don't fault staff for asking for it to be turned off, especially if it was distracting somoene or if there was some sort of policy, but the manner in which it was done was not OK. Remember staff are supposed to be trained in dealing with people. . .ARC and "good control" should be second nature, with all the study and drilling. And even if there may have been some "attitude" there, who's responsible for that comm cycle? Just because someone is in "lower conditions" doesn't mean staff is justified in losing their TR's, or treating them with disrespect. I still say it speaks poorly about the effectiveness of the tech.

-TL
 
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Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Still, what's open to question here is the *interpretation* of the events. Nobody seems to find the event itself surprising or incredible and, that's as it should be. As Scientology goes, it's completely unremarkable.

But, is LibraryClam a self-important twit or someone who's legitimate 'authority' has been undermined?

What is the *legitimate authority* of Scientology? (Which does promote and encourage the creation of self-important twits as a matter of course.)

Zinj
 

Ladybird

Silver Meritorious Patron
Any Sea Org member who is at an empty Class V Ideal Org was not sent there as a treat. She was probably either pregnant/ just got off the RPF or was "downstat". Getting sent to boom a failing org is a suicide mission and a punishment.

I think the incident had a lot to do with the SO member coming from a strict atmosphere where personal property of any kind is not allowed and confiscated at will including mail, books, TVs, computers, electronics, anything...and even having the wrong look on your face or a bad thought can get you busted.

So from that point of view Aeval probably looked like a shocking ethics particle to the SO member. The point could be made that that is exzactly what she is in scientology reality simply because she is posting here. If she told the MAA or EO that she was posting here and showed him her posts she would not have to worry about her doubt formula, she would be kicked out instantly.

As soon as you are found out Aeval the door will close so if there is anything you want to get out of there (like your PC Folder, ethics folder, personal property, etc.) get it now. They will not let you have anything, not even clothes or pictures or your own paid for course packs or books.

If you do decide to stay in the cult you are going to have to go through sec checks and conditions and confess all the stuff you have written here, and even then the SO Mission in your org will probably kick you out anyway after they use you to get information on the critics with an SP Declare and Disconnection Order.

There was another little teenage girl here recently who did just what I described because she couldn't make up her mind, and she sorta burnt her bridges here too, though I am sure many of us will be here for her when she asks for help. There have been many of todays major critics who went back to the cult and ratted on the critics after they caved in. I am happy to say most are out now for good even though there are still a few I don't think I can ever trust again.

So realize that Ex-scientologists have been through a lot and don't trust easily. We do want to help though! And we LOVE stories!
 

Aeval

Patron
I suppose since Aeval is new here and hasn't developed a "trust" level yet, people are understandably cautious, and this kind of post can stir people up, as it has here.

But, I'm going to assume face value and say it's an accurate account. When I read the OP I was kind of surprised that music was allowed at all. Honestly I don't fault staff for asking for it to be turned off, especially if it was distracting somoene or if there was some sort of policy, but the manner in which it was done was not OK. Remember staff are supposed to be trained in dealing with people. . .ARC and "good control" should be second nature, with all the study and drilling. And even if there may have been some "attitude" there, who's responsible for that comm cycle? Just because someone is in "lower conditions" doesn't mean staff is justified in losing their TR's, or treating them with disrespect. I still say it speaks poorly about the effectiveness of the tech.

-TL

that's the point i was trying to make

Only if you aren't visiting Boston :bleh:
new to do list!
step one: get rich

step two: celebrate in Boston.
 

Aeval

Patron
Any Sea Org member who is at an empty Class V Ideal Org was not sent there as a treat. She was probably either pregnant/ just got off the RPF or was "downstat". Getting sent to boom a failing org is a suicide mission and a punishment.

I think the incident had a lot to do with the SO member coming from a strict atmosphere where personal property of any kind is not allowed and confiscated at will including mail, books, TVs, computers, electronics, anything...and even having the wrong look on your face or a bad thought can get you busted.

So from that point of view Aeval probably looked like a shocking ethics particle to the SO member. The point could be made that that is exzactly what she is in scientology reality simply because she is posting here. If she told the MAA or EO that she was posting here and showed him her posts she would not have to worry about her doubt formula, she would be kicked out instantly.

As soon as you are found out Aeval the door will close so if there is anything you want to get out of there (like your PC Folder, ethics folder, personal property, etc.) get it now. They will not let you have anything, not even clothes or pictures or your own paid for course packs or books.

If you do decide to stay in the cult you are going to have to go through sec checks and conditions and confess all the stuff you have written here, and even then the SO Mission in your org will probably kick you out anyway after they use you to get information on the critics with an SP Declare and Disconnection Order.

There was another little teenage girl here recently who did just what I described because she couldn't make up her mind, and she sorta burnt her bridges here too, though I am sure many of us will be here for her when she asks for help. There have been many of todays major critics who went back to the cult and ratted on the critics after they caved in. I am happy to say most are out now for good even though there are still a few I don't think I can ever trust again.

So realize that Ex-scientologists have been through a lot and don't trust easily. We do want to help though! And we LOVE stories!


I'm not "on the fence" nor do I intend to "confess" to anything. It's simply not a viable option. Believe me, there have been all kinds of things used on me to get me to rat out other younger scientologists that left the church. Including, "hey can I borrow your phone? Mine's dead" and then they use my phone to call someone ELSE on my contacts list. :no: That's a no-no for me.

At anyrate, I don't blame her for her post, frustrations, and drama, but I do feel that i should have the right to some ARC and right to own property. Especially since I'm pretty sure she doesn't know me from Eve.
 

Mystic

Crusader
So, If you've read up on the "Doubt" thread, I've been in the org doing my conditions.

We have an Ideal Org, so I've been sitting in the Qual Library, minding my own business. The library is in the middle of a high staff traffic area, you have to walk through or around it to get to HCO, the Exec offices, etc...

I was the only one in there studying, and like to listen to music when I study, so I had my iTunes playing, but only so loud as that I could actually hear it. People who walked by and saw me gave me hugs, or paused to talk, but I look different than when I was on staff, and have a considerably different body mock-up. I'm a model, and have lost weight, changed my hair, etc. ... point is, not any people stopped to talk, and I was the only one in there anyhow.

Well, at about 10:10pm, when all the public are leaving, (some staff too) the cope off (who I think is a SO member) came up to me.

"hi. this is the qual library, people are trying to study, so you need to turn off your computer."

"um... hi. It's 10 o'clock, Who is trying to study? and how does my computer have anything to do with it?"

"you need to turn off your music, you're disrupting the students."

(do I NEED to reiterate that I am the ONLY one there, and people are not actually "students" in the qual library, or they would be in the Academy? OBVIOUSLY she thinks this is a mortal sin.)

"No. There is no one here. If you show me a reference, I'll..."

I had to stop talking, for the lady had slammed my computer shut and STOLEN my computer. It was in her hands and she was walking away.

needless to say, I snatched it back, Carefully restrained myself from doing anything rash, (like giving her a well-deserved broken nose) and walked back to my seat, opened my computer and looked at her briefly before continuing.

"If you turn on your music again, I'll take away your computer for good."

"bullshit you'll take my computer" (I was MAD. I saw colors! My body was vibrating! I don't usually GET mad like this!)

She dissappeared into an office to talk to someone, and when she came out, my music was on again, and I was back to work. Well, I was staring furiously at my computer and convincing myself not to throw a temper tantrum.

I looked up at her. "what's your name?" (fully intending to write a report)

"you don't need to know that"

And then she walked away.


How's that for a big pile of What The Fuck?

This story sounds exactly like something that would happen in a clamfaggOTry installation on a regular basis...until their final end.
 

Winston Smith

Flunked Scientology
Yeah, Aeval, just chill...along with everyone else if that is possible. It is well documented that anything Scio is wacko.
 
Aeval,

I think with it being a small org and the Sea Org person being the cope officer (who is finding it difficult to cope) she probably knew who you were and knew you were working on an ethics cycle.

But I have to tell you that I would have found the music unacceptable. It would have gotten a negative response in any public library, or university library, or school library.

I think Ladybird has a good point about the enviroment the Sea Org memeber came from. I'm not surprised by her behavior at all.

But my guess is that you are kind of young (by that I mean under fifty) and there is a generational gap with each generation regarding manners. So I would have asked you to turn off the music too.

But I wouldn't have touched your property. That is way over the line.

Libraries for me are hallowed grounds; during, before, or after hours. It is a generational thing.

But I don't think the Sea Org lady's position had anything to do with manners. I think they love to control, intimidate, and manipulate--that's Keeping Scientology Working.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
Well, call me a dunce.. I don't get why anyone would distrust Aevals story in the OP? - And that's after a careful reread and powerpondering stuff.. (scratches head..)

I'm not at all surprized that a Sea Org 'terminal' would click 'it's' programming to remove private property from someone in a courseroom.

They did actually steal my typewriter when I was blowing the GO back then.. They didn't 'refuse' to give it to me.. They intirely refused to talk or listen to me. That's pr. policy on lower conditions. Both the cut comm and stealing my property. No surprize there..

:run:
 

Aeval

Patron
Well, call me a dunce.. I don't get why anyone would distrust Aevals story in the OP? - And that's after a careful reread and powerpondering stuff.. (scratches head..)

I'm not at all surprized that a Sea Org 'terminal' would click 'it's' programming to remove private property from someone in a courseroom.

They did actually steal my typewriter when I was blowing the GO back then.. They didn't 'refuse' to give it to me.. They intirely refused to talk or listen to me. That's pr. policy on lower conditions. Both the cut comm and stealing my property. No surprize there..

:run:

dunce ;)

I'm kidding.


-----

So in case anyone missed the APB, I'm in the mindset that I was wrong for having on my music in the qual library. (despite the reasons it seemed okay at the time)

and... I'm kinda in a mindset where I think there are a few people on here that are ... hypocritical.

It's okay to bash Scientology as a whole. OSA, DM, LRH, these are all open targets for finding fault.

I find fault with a quasi local person, and I'm a troll, a rat, or obviously lying. (to some)

And I disagree.

This being the internet, and the internet being a slick medium, I have no way to disprove you. *shrug* Just put me on ignore, or read my posts and make up your mind again later.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
A thick skin is a valuable commodity
Especially anywhere that involves Scientology. Because the 'Church' *does* send people in. Sometimes merely to cause trouble and other times for more nefarious purposes.

Being accused of being OSA is par for the course and OSA accuses people of being with OSA too :)

Welcome to bullbaiting.

Zinj
 

Aeval

Patron
A thick skin is a valuable commodity
Especially anywhere that involves Scientology. Because the 'Church' *does* send people in. Sometimes merely to cause trouble and other times for more nefarious purposes.

Being accused of being OSA is par for the course and OSA accuses people of being with OSA too :)

Welcome to bullbaiting.

Zinj

COool! Start! :happydance:
 

Feral

Rogue male
Aeval,

I've just read through this thread and find it pretty funny, please don't be offended. I'm glad your here.

Having said that, I want to ask you something. So, in listening to your i-tunes in the qual library was there a hint of defiance for their authority in your attitude? If you're like I was when I was young, and I assume you are in your early twenties (?) you might tend to challenge a group or person's authority especially as the kool aid wears off. Is this a bit right?

If so that reaction that you got may have been the result of your *test*.

I think Lady bird got it right, with these guys a reaction like that is almost pre programmed. So, maybe you got a "positive result"

All the best.
 

Carmel

Crusader
<snip>

But, I'm going to assume face value and say it's an accurate account. When I read the OP I was kind of surprised that music was allowed at all. Honestly I don't fault staff for asking her to turn it off, but the manner in which it was done was not OK. Remember staff are supposed to be trained in dealing with people. . .ARC and "good control" should be second nature, with all the study and drilling. Yes, it sounds like there may have been some "attitude" there, but who's responsible for that comm cycle? Just because someone is in "lower conditions" doesn't mean staff is justified in losing their TR's, or treating them with disrespect. I still say it speaks poorly about the effectiveness of the tech.

-TL
In regard to what I've bolded above:

We don't know what the manner was, in which it was done. We have an 'account' from someone who we hardly know, about an 'incident', given in a fashion which seemed pretty 'one sided' and full of an "all about me", somewhat defiant attitude (in my mind).

I recall a BBQ we had here some years ago. A boy (visiting with his parents) thought it was ok (or his ‘right’) to wipe his hands on our couch, after he'd eaten some chocolate mud cake. My boys told him to use a napkin, but he kept wiping his hands on the couch apparently. One of my boys came and told me about it. I went up to where the kids were, established that the boy had wiped his hands on the couch, and I told him firmly but politely that doing that wasn't acceptable here. The boy looked at me defiantly, then smirked, and asked me what my problem was. He said that I was the mother and that I could clean it up later. I then went and spoke to his parents about what had occurred, but I got a smart ass response from the boy's Dad. I wasn't gonna make a scene when I had guests, so I just 'politely' and quietly asked them to leave, and they did. If they didn’t just leave as requested, then I probably would have exposed a fang or two.

I heard a couple of weeks later a very different version of events. Apparently, I was a snotty nosed bitch, who had no tolerance for children, and who had kicked out some guests at my BBQ because their kid dropped some cake on the couch.

Reading the op reminded me of this occurrence and the subsequent crap that I heard about it afterward, from people who weren't there.

Respect, manners, and etiquette count for something to many of us. Be it at a public library, someone else's house, or even an org - Ya don't just act like a selfish little brat, and expect it to be "all about you" (although some do).

At our place, it's like central railway station - Visitors walk into the house with dirty boots, it's fine to put their feet up on the coffee table, and they ya can help themselves to a snack or a drink if they want one. But then, around here too, the boys/men don't wear caps/hats at the dinner table. If they aren't willing to take their cap off, then they don't eat. When we go to someone else's house though, where things are different than around here, then we are happy to go along with what they do (and even if we think some of their 'ways' are loopy).

If in fact Aeval was at the org, and an altercation between her and the Cope Off occurred, then who knows what actually occurred? From the attitude displayed in the op, I'd hardly be making any assumptions about fault of the SO member in this circumstance.

Scn critics can and do fall for ‘automatically’ accusing the Scio, just like it is common for Scios to slag off and be very judgmental about any and all of the critics. To have such assumptions, accusations and judgments laid on ya so readily and easily, just because you’re a critic, a staff member, or a Scio, or whatever.........is cringe material, IMO.

Hypothetically, if Aeval was the Scio, and the SO member was the 'critic', in the story, who would you support in that instance?
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
In regard to what I've bolded above:

We don't know what the manner was, in which it was done. We have an 'account' from someone who we hardly know, about an 'incident', given in a fashion which seemed pretty 'one sided' and full of an "all about me", somewhat defiant attitude (in my mind).

I recall a BBQ we had here some years ago. A boy (visiting with his parents) thought it was ok (or his ‘right’) to wipe his hands on our couch, after he'd eaten some chocolate mud cake. My boys told him to use a napkin, but he kept wiping his hands on the couch apparently. One of my boys came and told me about it. I went up to where the kids were, established that the boy had wiped his hands on the couch, and I told him firmly but politely that doing that wasn't acceptable here. The boy looked at me defiantly, then smirked, and asked me what my problem was. He said that I was the mother and that I could clean it up later. I then went and spoke to his parents about what had occurred, but I got a smart ass response from the boy's Dad. I wasn't gonna make a scene when I had guests, so I just 'politely' and quietly asked them to leave, and they did. If they didn’t just leave as requested, then I probably would have exposed a fang or two.

I heard a couple of weeks later a very different version of events. Apparently, I was a snotty nosed bitch, who had no tolerance for children, and who had kicked out some guests at my BBQ because their kid dropped some cake on the couch.

Reading the op reminded me of this occurrence and the subsequent crap that I heard about it afterward, from people who weren't there.

Respect, manners, and etiquette count for something to many of us. Be it at a public library, someone else's house, or even an org - Ya don't just act like a selfish little brat, and expect it to be "all about you" (although some do).

At our place, it's like central railway station - Visitors walk into the house with dirty boots, it's fine to put their feet up on the coffee table, and they ya can help themselves to a snack or a drink if they want one. But then, around here too, the boys/men don't wear caps/hats at the dinner table. If they aren't willing to take their cap off, then they don't eat. When we go to someone else's house though, where things are different than around here, then we are happy to go along with what they do (and even if we think some of their 'ways' are loopy).

If in fact Aeval was at the org, and an altercation between her and the Cope Off occurred, then who knows what actually occurred? From the attitude displayed in the op, I'd hardly be making any assumptions about fault of the SO member in this circumstance.

Scn critics can and do fall for ‘automatically’ accusing the Scio, just like it is common for Scios to slag off and be very judgmental about any and all of the critics. To have such assumptions, accusations and judgments laid on ya so readily and easily, just because you’re a critic, a staff member, or a Scio, or whatever.........is cringe material, IMO.

Hypothetically, if Aeval was the Scio, and the SO member was the 'critic', in the story, who would you support in that instance?

The point is, this person tells their story and a bunch of folk jump in can call them a liar and a troll.

Good luck with your manners and "helpfullness" to the newly departing scientology with your attitude.

I'm probably about to be banned, I was infracted for my posting on this thread...and something else both today, and I'm sure its a sign...

Think dear woman. Jumping on people and finding fault is seldom the path to forging alliances and having truth and freedom prevail. (ironic I know)(I know by real experience and many boneheaded trials!!)
 
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Free to shine

Shiny & Free
If in fact Aeval was at the org, and an altercation between her and the Cope Off occurred, then who knows what actually occurred? From the attitude displayed in the op, I'd hardly be making any assumptions about fault of the SO member in this circumstance.

Is that the sort of attitude that you would have liked applied to your posts about things that happened to you? I think not. Chill pill time.

I do believe I actually agree with Alex for a change. :ohmy:
 
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