What's new

Questions For OTs

Opter

Silver Meritorious Patron
Fisherman

You write: "Nothing compares to the brutality of Nazism, but in everything else, the parallels to Scientology are uncanny".

The Nazi party ruled Germany at the time and had lots of power. Just imagine if Scientology had so much power ? What will DM and his cronies do?

Opter
 

RogerB

Crusader
Some Tech on Shocks

Lakey,

Here's some tech on shocks that might help you.

One of two things typically happens in a shock.

The Being either collapses in (as in, the shock collapses the person in an implosion) or the Being disperses away (from the shocking impact or inval, etc.)

When I and a few others processed the victims in the 9/11 disaster, the first question on spiritual contact after indicating the Being was suffering a shock was: "At the moment of shock, did you implode or disperse?" Then, "What frozen moods has the shock fixed you in?"

There is a whole R/D for shock handling which can be run, but these are the questions I and the other small team used on 9/11.

Another key question is, "Connected to the shock, are there any intentions?" These tend to come off as either solutions to the scene, or as the intentions impinged from the shocking source.

Also can be asked is, "Connected to the shock, what must not be experienced?" Have them experience or confront it to unfix it.

The final thing is to restore the Being's purposes, dreams and aspirations for and in the future :yes:

And that little handling freed the Beings we contacted from their stuck position in the incident at that time and place of the 9/11 event.

Rog
 
Last edited:

lkwdblds

Crusader
Fisherman, thanks for a fine post.

Fisherman -
The long post which you wrote to me is very much appreciated. I agree with everything you say. There is no need to dissect what you said because it reads perfect as it is and I can't think of anything to add. It is ironic that Hubbard said that the way to get rid of SP's and liars is to shine the light of truth on them. He says the one thing that they fear is the truth and that in its presence they run away. Here at this time and this place, the light of truth is being shined directly upon the Church of Scientology and some of the illegal and criminal activities which it is engaging in.

The internet is an enormous step forward for the betterment of man. Without the internet, C of S's misdeeds could have escaped the public record for decades or even indefinititely the way C of S's OSA division rushes in with lies to cover the churches misdeeds. With the internet, C of S can't stop the information from reaching the public.

Your fine post pushes us to continue to be honest and look deep within ourselves so as to give the public true, accurate and unbiased information on the dangers and the abuses of Corporate Scientology.

Besides all the truth being revealed about it, I am starting to think that Scientology is passe and anachronistic. Its hey day was the 1950's, 60's and 70's. At that time it seemed cutting edge, state of the art mental tech. As we approach the 2010's it now seems stale and out of date. The use of the Naval uniforms is just totally incorrect in today's world as one small point.

Why do you need to spend hundreds of thousands for C of S services and audit 10 years on Solo NOTs where you have to go twice a year to Florida for a $20,000 per pop security check when you can join an Eastern religious movement where people actually care about one another and get better gains for a few pennies on the dollar, when compared to C of S?

Lakey
 
Last edited:

Out-Ethics

Patron Meritorious
Fisherman -
The long post which you wrote to me is very much appreciated. I agree with everything you say. There is no need to dissect what you said because it reads perfect as it is and I can't think of anything to add. It is ironic that Hubbard said that the way to get rid of SP's and liars is to shine the light of truth on them. He says the one thing that they fear is that the truth and that in its presence they run away. Here at this time and this place, the light of truth is being shined directly upon the Church of Scientology and some of the illegal and criminal activities which it is engaging in.

The internet is an enormous step forward for the betterment of man. Without the internet, C of S's misdeeds could have escaped the public record for decades or even indefinititely the way C of S's OSA division rushes in with lies to cover the churches misdeeds. With the internet, C of S can't stop the information from reaching the public.

Your fine post pushes us to continue to be honest and look deep within ourselves so as to give the public true, accurate and unbiased information on the dangers and the abuses of Corporate Scientology.

Besides all the truth being revealed about it, I am starting to think that Scientology is passe and anachronistic. Its hay day was the 1950's, 60's and 70's. At that time it seemed cutting edge, state of the art mental tech. As we approach the 2010's it now seems stale and out of date. The use of the Naval uniforms is just totally incorrect in today's world as one small point.

Why do you need to spend hundreds of thousands for C of S services and audit 10 years on Solo NOTs where you have to go twice a year to Florida for a $20,000 per pop security check when you can join an Eastern religious movement where people actually care about one another and get better gains for a few pennies on the dollar, when compared to C of S?

Lakey

Reading you and Roger B, Fisherman and others it's very amazing the viewpoints each one brings forth. Since I have been coming here which was starting last summer I have learned so much about Scientology, Hubbard and DM etc. These were all revered and sacred at one point. When one finds truth in any area of life a simple occurrence happens which is you no longer have doubts about that subject and the sanity is there. There has always been lingering doubts about the Church and Hubbard and these have resolved.

You are very correct about the internet. What an amazing tool of communication it is. When I was reading your post I realized that the CoS has never really changed it tactics. What they are doing today, they have done in the 90s, 80s, 70, and 60s. I don't know as much about the 50s but Hubbard paranoia paid the road to hell for the later decades. The CoS has failed to anticipate and handled this kind of communications. I once heard a staff members say years ago, "the internet is not secure." I thought at the time they were talking about viruses and in a funny way they were right. The virus was the Church's misdeeds and crimes and the internet was the means to diagnose the disease so that it could be treated. And so we are. Thanks again for the posters on this site - you guys are amazing and "rock!!! :thankyou:
 

Daddio

Patron with Honors
Reading you and Roger B, Fisherman and others it's very amazing the viewpoints each one brings forth. Since I have been coming here which was starting last summer I have learned so much about Scientology, Hubbard and DM etc. These were all revered and sacred at one point. When one finds truth in any area of life a simple occurrence happens which is you no longer have doubts about that subject and the sanity is there. There has always been lingering doubts about the Church and Hubbard and these have resolved.

You are very correct about the internet. What an amazing tool of communication it is. When I was reading your post I realized that the CoS has never really changed it tactics. What they are doing today, they have done in the 90s, 80s, 70, and 60s. I don't know as much about the 50s but Hubbard paranoia paid the road to hell for the later decades. The CoS has failed to anticipate and handled this kind of communications. I once heard a staff members say years ago, "the internet is not secure." I thought at the time they were talking about viruses and in a funny way they were right. The virus was the Church's misdeeds and crimes and the internet was the means to diagnose the disease so that it could be treated. And so we are. Thanks again for the posters on this site - you guys are amazing and "rock!!! :thankyou:

O-E, I think you've named one of the many truths about cults, CofS in particular, with other writers in this and other threads. Lakey called it "passe and anachronistic", and that is another truth, but I'd capitalize anachronism. Since Hubbard started it in the 50s following his short naval career, the uniforms and immense administrative rules/writings just exemplify an organization frozen in the past, viewed from today. When rules/regulations become institutionalized, then disseminated in a huge organization, they also get set in stone.

At that point, they're almost impossible to change, so the organism can't evolve. From experience, the US military suffers the same diseases. As organizations go, the military has evolved in the past 15 or so years, but the CofS hasn't, and that is their fatal flaw, and will cause their inevitable demise.

Modern businesses, on the other hand, have to evolve or dissolve. In the past 15-20 years, Product Improvement has been a method to get group involvement (buy-in) toward organizational goals. Been fairly successful, when applied to the correct problems...

Above all else, Hubbard started CofS as a get rich scheme. That many people found it useful (in the early stages), only made it easier to accept the crap that follows after a huge investment in time and money, IMO.

Thanks for reading,
Alan
 

Terril park

Sponsor
I think the important message is that the horrible ordeal of scientology has 'brought out the best' in many people - OG standing up to dangerous forces, 'exes' realizing that only the most truthful accounts will be helpful to others, Anons laying aside personal interests, protesting in the rain, and sometimes all alone, because it's the right thing to do. This is a really positive story and reason to celebrate hope!

Best, fisherman

There is a commonality to all these, and including Freezoners and COS members. They have all made a decision to make the world a better place.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
It seems like we have a lot of agreement here.

O - E: You started a really excellent thread here. I like your last post as well as Daddio's, Terril's and Roger B's. A lot of new blood was brought in when Fisherman, Lookmanohead and J. Swift started posting here and then Gadfly chimed in after being AWOL from the board for a while. Everyone is pretty much in alignment on the truths of the situation, there is a lot of agreement between us and very little disagreement.

It seems to me that there are a lot of excellent minds coming to agreement and that creates a lot of truth and a lot of power. I congratulate you, O - E, for creating this topic which has attracted so much interest and so much agreement between very able but diverse people of good will.
Lakey
Lakey
 

fisherman

Patron with Honors
Lakey,

Thanks for your kind acknowledgements!

As you say, there's no need to dissect a post unless the reader finds something to elaborate. And, please, don't feel you need to dissect this one!

One thing that's very different on the internet is the lack of eye contact and visual cues. If we were sitting around as a group, having coffee, a simple nod would be enough to show agreement, interest, or acknowledement. The internet is evolving it's own etiquette, but it's not complete. We haven't developed an easy way to communicate the physical cues we interject, non-verbally.

In person, an enthusiastic facial expression can be enough to express, "Lakey, great point, hold that thought while I finish up." In person, you can visually detemine when someone simply sits back to listen for awhile. When you 'sit back' on the net, you've disappeared.

For you and I, unless something compelling comes along, maybe it's time to sit back and listen, a bit.

Still, I did want to shout, "Hear, Hear" - in response to your point that the internet allows, "diverse people of good will...coming to agreement and that creates a lot of truth and a lot of power".

You couldn't be more right! What all of us are doing, right now, discoursing, sharing ideas, elaborating experience and seeking truth, is exactly the philosophy Socrates advocated. I am completely serious in this. If Socrates and Plato were alive today, they would be writing on message boards!

Let me also say, that the internet is not only creating new ways to communicate, but a new literary form as well. In the 19th century, letter corresondence on topics of the day were often published, establishing the 'belles lettres' literary tradition. Writing on internet message boards is reshaping that genre.

The internet enables all of us to publish our thoughts to an unlimited readership. It's the 'belles lettres' tradition, in 'real time', with a 'stadium audience'. Nothing like this has ever existed before and I find it incredibly exciting!

The personal stories of ex-scientogists are an unparalleled example of this new literature. I've read nearly all of the personal stories at ESMB and OCMB. They are important testaments, but also compelling and often quite beautiful literary accomplishments.

So there's 'food for thought' for those who like to cogitate such matters! :coolwink:

As you said, the power of these internet discussions is that they raise new insights. The very act of writing generates new ideas. In your last post, you 'couldn't think of much to add' and yet, presented a scientology observation I had never considered - "anachronism".

That's a very cogent reflection and it could easily warrant a seperate thread! You wrote:

Besides all the truth being revealed about it, I am starting to think that Scientology is passe and anachronistic. Its hay day was the 1950's, 60's and 70's. At that time it seemed cutting edge, state of the art mental tech. As we approach the 2010's it now seems stale and out of date. The use of the Naval uniforms is just totally incorrect in today's world as one small point.

Scientology as "anachronism" - unable to reseat itself in our modern age. That's a fascinating viewpoint and I'd love to hear 'exes' delve into the 'hows whys and wherefores' on that idea!

So there you go - you're generating 'big thoughts' and new ideas, without even trying! :)

Best, fisherman
 
Last edited:

lkwdblds

Crusader
"Anachronism"

Lakey,

......Snip.........


Scientology as "anachronism" - unable to reseat itself in our modern age. That's a fascinating viewpoint and I'd love to hear 'exes' delve into the 'hows whys and wherefores' on that idea!

So there you go - you're generating 'big thoughts' and new ideas, without even trying! :)

Best, fisherman

Fisherman -

"My psychologist just gave me a new prescription, "Your ego and self esteem are a little low, Take one Fisherman email post Twice Daily, until Ego and Self Esteem reach acceptable levels". As the beautiful "SmartOne" once said after I gave her a compliment, "Right now my head is so big that I can't fit through the door."

I came up with Scn being an anachronism about 2 nights ago. To be honest with you, I thought it was a brilliant concept and I put it up on my own personal thread, "The Old Days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973" I think I also put it up on the thread, "Questions for OTs". Nobody disagreed but nobody reacted as you did, or anywhere near that.

I really appreciate your spotting that as a very insightful point which could be the basis for its own thread. You know, after President Bush got through with his two terms, the military is not liked as it used to be in the heady days after WWII. A military uniform in say, Europe, is an anathema! Why would a church put to sea?! Why would a self help busines put to sea?. Where does someone with no naval training get off wearing a spiffy uniform with the scribbly spahgetti on the chest. with gaunlets and a sword, etc. That is not the way to be considered cutting age in any technology in these sophisticated times except, perhaps, for the real military itself. How can anyone take a leader of a church seriously wearing such a costume. Maybe in the 60's, 70's or 80's it was novel and kind of new but not any more.


One other thing. I like your remarks about Socrates and his times and the internet being an extension of that. I also get images from the American Revolutionary days. Ben Franklin and Thomas Payne using their prinitng presses to communicate with the citizenry. People banding together against tyrannies such as raising taxes on tea, Paul Revere's ride and all that stuff. That period was very populist, the people were participating with their town hall meetings and the regular citizen was actually involved and had a voice n government. I see a link form Socrates and his society to the American Revolution to the age of the emergence of the internet.

Well, I'll cut it short for now, too much talking is not good. Now some time to listen.
Lakey
 
Last edited:

looker

Patron Meritorious
We used to have Ingo Shwan and others whom were OT come to the mission and do card tricks for us and explain some OT phenomena. He and Hal Putoff used to explain Remote Viewing that they were doing with some sucess at the Stanford Research Institute. Someone asked about levitation and Psyco-Kinisis. I think it was Hal Putoff that said it was most likely a parlor trick but someday someone may learn how to really levitate objects.

I have a freind who is a member of the skeptics society and we talk about illusion and James Randi's still unclaimed Million dollar prize for demonstratable Psyco-Kinisis and psychic phenomenon.

I don't know why but I just ran into these two videos. I always wondered how this was done. Thought Id share for no other reason than entertainment and your comments :)

Secrets of levitation revealed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etSivpBHUmE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CeTsfppW6I&NR=1

Now we can all be OT9s :happydance:
 
Last edited:

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Fisherman -
The long post which you wrote to me is very much appreciated. I agree with everything you say. There is no need to dissect what you said because it reads perfect as it is and I can't think of anything to add. It is ironic that Hubbard said that the way to get rid of SP's and liars is to shine the light of truth on them. He says the one thing that they fear is the truth and that in its presence they run away. Here at this time and this place, the light of truth is being shined directly upon the Church of Scientology and some of the illegal and criminal activities which it is engaging in.

The internet is an enormous step forward for the betterment of man. Without the internet, C of S's misdeeds could have escaped the public record for decades or even indefinititely the way C of S's OSA division rushes in with lies to cover the churches misdeeds. With the internet, C of S can't stop the information from reaching the public.

Your fine post pushes us to continue to be honest and look deep within ourselves so as to give the public true, accurate and unbiased information on the dangers and the abuses of Corporate Scientology.

Besides all the truth being revealed about it, I am starting to think that Scientology is passe and anachronistic. Its hey day was the 1950's, 60's and 70's. At that time it seemed cutting edge, state of the art mental tech. As we approach the 2010's it now seems stale and out of date. The use of the Naval uniforms is just totally incorrect in today's world as one small point.

Why do you need to spend hundreds of thousands for C of S services and audit 10 years on Solo NOTs where you have to go twice a year to Florida for a $20,000 per pop security check when you can join an Eastern religious movement where people actually care about one another and get better gains for a few pennies on the dollar, when compared to C of S?

Lakey
That is so true. Scientology isn't aging well. Looks like an old snapshot from the fifties. So dry and dull.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
I knew about Puthoff and Swan

We used to have Ingo Shwan and others whom were OT come to the mission and do card tricks for us and explain some OT phenomena. He and Hal Putoff used to explain Remote Viewing that they were doing with some sucess at the Stanford Research Institute. Someone asked about levitation and Psyco-Kinisis. I think it was Hal Putoff that said it was most likely a parlor trick but someday someone may learn how to really levitate objects.

I have a freind who is a member of the skeptics society and we talk about illusion and James Randi's still unclaimed Million dollar prize for demonstratable Psyco-Kinisis and psychic phenomenon.

I don't know why but I just ran into these two videos. I always wondered how this was done. Thought Id share for no other reason than entertainment and your comments :)

Secrets of levitation revealed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etSivpBHUmE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CeTsfppW6I&NR=1

Now we can all be OT9s :happydance:

Yvonne Jentzch used to talk about Putoff or Puthoff and Ingo Swan all the time. I Googled the names and read up on their achievements. There is a theory that the U.S. Defense Dept. sent Puthoff in to see if there was anything to Scientology, and if out of body viewing and ESP could be attained there. Puthoff, in particular, reported back on his successes and the U.S. Military decided they could not allow rank and file citizens to achieve these kinds of powers. A scheme to infiltrate C of S and take over control of Scn was worked out and put into place.

However, it was worked out, through the Church of Spiritual Technology and the secrete deal with C of S which granted them religious recognitions and full tax exemption and the plan to stop actual OT's from being made was fully implimented. By 1978, the "old" upper OT levels were technically graded to old and no longer in use and they were replace by the NOTS auditing Course and audited NOTS. Instead of noticing the changes and applying KSW as they were supposed to, the vapid, blind robots in C of S welcomed the new OT levels with raves and did not even notice the old levels had been illegally degraded. Just like getting rid of the Mission holders, which looked to be complex, getting rid of the real OT levels just required a couple of catchy promo pieces jettisoning the old OT levels and replacingthem with NOTS. Very few in C of S will notice or challenge any KSW tech violations which Int Management itself makes so Int Management can do whatever it wants and is almost never called to account for its actions. The few who would oppose them have pretty much been declared and sent packing, years ago.

NOTS may offer case gain but it should have been added into the line up as the L's were and should never have replaced any previous OT level. This is so obvious it is just screaming to be handled but the remaining C of S members, though many are well meaning, have lost their critical thinking skills long ago and have no mental means available to them to "connect the dots" or "pull a string". Besides old OT levels being knocked out of existence, the newer OT levels such as 9 - 15 will never be allowed to be delivered either as further proof on some powerful force being present which does not want "Joe the Plumber types" to be able to have OT abilities and do remote viewing! Of course if you mention this as a serious possibility, you are labled a nut case, a conspiracy theory nut or worse!

Thanks for the explanation videos of how Indian levitation is done. I suppose the Indian rope trick will have a very similar explanation.
Lakey
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
----snippety snip-------
Thanks for the explanation videos of how Indian levitation is done. I suppose the Indian rope trick will have a very similar explanation.
Lakey

ciao lkwdbids!

Years ago when I was still a believer that OT levels would take one to transcendent states of ability, I worked on a project that required much research into paranormal events. It was quite fascinating. A real eye opener! It began with the predicate that OT-like abilities existed somewhere in the world and I set out to find, view and document them on film.

The more I learned, the more questions I had about my cherished "stable datums" from Scientology. It was an INTERNET-ESQUE event insofar as locating an ocean of data that was quite different than what I had previously thought it to be. It was, in many respects, like a virtual de-programming.

At the end of that project, I had seen so many charlatans and conjuring tricks (some quite brilliant) that I had to wonder if any Scientology OTs in fact could produce such phenomena in truth. That threw my thinking in a new direction, quite unexpected!

The Indian Rope trick (one of the oldest) is well-documented as an illusion. There is an Indian version of The Amazing Randi who debunks paranormal claims in that part of the world. A book detailing how some of those tricks are done is "THE GOD MEN OF INDIA". Let me know if you are unable to find it.

The Indian rope trick is typically done in a very open field or plain without trees or other structures. However, the levitating object IS in fact being rigged to something----an invisible wire far above, which is stretched at very great length to the nearest trees or buildings.

I remember another one I could just not figure out. A mystic who was chronicled in a documentary (a south pacific Islander) who could use psychic energy to cause objects to ignite in flames. It was an astonishing event. There is even a documentary done on it which I can probably dig up the title for you, if interested. Fantastic stuff. Unable to solve that riddle, I corresponded with The Amazing Randi who graciously explained how it was done!
 

billheichert

Patron with Honors
I went through new ot 5. Waste of money. big con. I think that the ot levels are basiclly created by you as you read the data, then do it in clay, then go in and audit it. If you just grabbed your next door neighbor and tried any of the ot processes (for ex. OT5) there would be no effect. However, once a person has been conviced that this is his only chance for imortality, and he has paid, and paid and paid, and he has been hyped by friends, relatives, staff and events, he has done the whole bt & cluster stuff in clay, he has drilled it for hours on a doll, then it becomes real. and he does it.

I think that a person gets so screwed up and so convinced of these various lies, so devoted to lrh that after being in for a few years, one starts to feel less than complete as he hasn't done ot levels yet. he sells himself on how great they will be. then when he does the ot levels, he can't admit to himself how worthless it was, and he goes a long with everyone else saying how great etc.

You can't buy spirituality. There are many paths and many right answers. Look. Look.

since leaving the church, we often remark, "this book was better than the ot levels" or "that was better then the L's". This happens a lot, because there is a lot of data out there that is of much greater magnitude and benifit than the stuff lrh used on us.

What a sham. what a shame.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
You can't buy spirituality. There are many paths and many right answers. Look. Look.

Someone on ARS once said that he or she thought people got into Scn because they were spiritually lazy. I know that was true in my own case, even though I didn't get into Scn for the spirituality as much as the thought of improving my own mental health.

Little did I know.

I'm sure it's not true for everyone, though.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Someone on ARS once said that he or she thought people got into Scn because they were spiritually lazy. I know that was true in my own case, even though I didn't get into Scn for the spirituality as much as the thought of improving my own mental health.Little did I know.I'm sure it's not true for everyone, though.

The CONCEPT of Scientology is certainly fantastic & fascinating. Junk-food ascendence---feels so good bingeing on it but there is hell to pay afterwards. Sort of like getting in the drive-thru lane at McEnlightenment.

McEnlightenment Order Taker (over intercom): Welcome to McEnlightenment! May I take your order?

Customer In Car: Yeah, I'll just have the low-cal communication course.

McEnlightenment Order Taker: Okay, would you like to super-size that with a side order of Bridge for just $350,000 more?
 

smartone

My Own Boss
There you have it, an old OTVII type win! It sure beats 6 month sec checks, refreshers and endless years of solo auditing.
Lakey


Sounds like you got the pure, standard LRH version of the tech Lakey before DM started poking around with it.
 
Top