The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[lkwdblds]

No, over on Vermont near Los Feliz

Lakey wrote:

She was a singing waitress at Sarno's Italian restaurant

***

Was that over by Barham off Ventura Blvd. near the Cahuenga Pass?

we used to go there. It was really fun. Is it still there?

Sarno's was over on North Vermont just sourth of Los Feliz Blvd. I lived in some apartments on Los Feliz near Hillhurst from 1968 to 1970, just prior to joining Scn. Sarno's had a fire and the owner was killed. I just drove by there less than 2 weeks ago, it is gone but there are 3 Italian restaurants there. None of them are called Sarno's now but one of them occupies his old building.

 

[lkwdblds]

Should one call up old friends from the past?

Sarno's was over on North Vermont just sourth of Los Feliz Blvd. I lived in some apartments on Los Feliz near Hillhurst from 1968 to 1970, just prior to joining Scn. Sarno's had a fire and the owner was killed. I just drove by there less than 2 weeks ago, it is gone but there are 3 Italian restaurants there. None of them are called Sarno's now but one of them occupies his old building.

The former singing waitress is now age 55 and is listed on Google in the free people finder search. There is a an adress, a phone number and an aerial view of the the house. Does anyone have experiences contacting people from their pasts? What type of results have you had and have any old friendships been resumed?

I tried this twice with just so-so results. One guy was a kid on my block when I was a kid growing up. We were neghbors from when we moved in way back in 1944, when I was 4 to 1955 when his family moved away from the neighborhood. He was a year and a half younger than me but we were friends for those eleven years and played together. He lives only 6 blocks from me in Orange County, CA and I knew about that because my brother had looked him up about 25 years ago. When I went walking in the hills around my house, I would pass his home and one day left a letter in his mail box and he called me.

He was married and we were new to the neighborhood back in 2002 and this guy had been a sociology professor at Cal State Universtiy in Fullerton for over 40 years and was just in the process of retiring. I was hoping that he and his wife would become friends with me and my wife so that we would have another family to be friends with in our neighborhood. This guy was very cordial to me and suggested we go for walks in the morning. His wife had no interest in me whatsoever. After about 5 walks of about 1 hour each, we had talked out everything to do with the old neighborhood and there was nothing new coming up to create more interest. I told him that I ran a construction company and do not believe I told him that I had graduated from Cal State Fullerton with a degree in Math and Physics so he perceived me as a sort of red neck, just working in construction so he, the University Professor was kind of talking down to me like I wasn't too bright. He did it in a nice way and meant me no harm. After 5 walks, with his wife having no interest in meeting us and with nothing new to talk about and with me feeling that he was talking down to me as a Professor to a construction worker, I decided to call it off and the relationship ended.

The other experience was a Guy, Doug, I met in high school in 1956 and became best friends with from about 1956 to 1962. We stayed in touch up to 1970, almost to the day when I got into Scn. When I joined there, I had so many new friends, I did not need Doug any longer and by then I was only seeing him 2 or 3 times a year anyway so the friendship ended.

A friend from high school who I still know real well found Doug on the internet and I initiated an email message to him. At first, he was only mildly interested but he responded. He lives about 100 miles from me in Palm Desert. We began a correspondence by email which lasted about 2 years. I finally offered to drive out to Palm Desert to visit him and he turned me down, saying that those types of encounters are too awkward. We wrote for several more months and it loooks like it has ended again perhaps 6 weeks ago. We really have nothing in common. Since we were friends for 15 years and he was my best friend for about 6 of those years we generated lots and lots of emails talking about the old days and what people were doing right now.

I would be interested in hearing other people's experiences looking up lost childhood or young adult friends and trying to reconnect. Has anybody really had a major success in doing this? I was thinking of giving the singing waitress a call, in fact I tried it last week and got only a voice mail but I decided not to leave a message.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

I would be interested in hearing other people's experiences looking up lost childhood or young adult friends and trying to reconnect. Has anybody really had a major success in doing this? I was thinking of giving the singing waitress a call, in fact I tried it last week and got only a voice mail but I decided not to leave a message.

From where could a spiritual being communicate to a former singing waitress?89999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 (the aforementioned opinion brought to you by our cat)

First, let me just comment on grade 0. Nobody is really able to communicate freely with anyone on any subject. Stuff just keeps coming up. When it does though, see what you can do to discharge it.

I keep getting hit on by old friends from school, who are looking for new mates.

When somebody has an agenda, and the answers to their question is either "yes or no" - such as "can this person help my career?" or "can this person be my new spouse?"- then you really have a limited amount to talk about.

I had talks like that with Hollywood creatures on the look for somebody to help their career. As Carrie Fisher said,"Friendship is so hard in Hollywood, because everyone does sincerity so well."

If you go up to *anyone* with sincere interest in them, you can have a conversation. Add in respect and admiration, and you are on your way.

Talking to someone is not a TR. In real conversations, if someone says something, you don't just say "OK" You have to follow up with a hand off piece of conversation. It shows that you are interested and alive.

If someone is on a roll, you don't interrupt them. You don't say , in essence, "my turn to talk" - you help them to itsa all they have popping to view.

Then of course, there are older people, who aren't happy if they aren't the focus of attention. That gets really old fast.

Well, I can see by my watch, that it is time I go rent a house. let's do lunch sometime. Have your people get in touch with my people.

 

[lkwdblds]

What's with all the 9's?

From where could a spiritual being communicate to a former singing waitress?89999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 (the aforementioned opinion brought to you by our cat)

I know your cat is just an extension of your beingness, created by you to guard your property as a sort of watch cat! With all those 9's, all I can think of is a cat has 9 lives. The number you printed must signified the number of years ago that the cat's time track started:

First, let me just comment on grade 0. Nobody is really able to communicate freely with anyone on any subject. Stuff just keeps coming up. When it does though, see what you can do to discharge it.

They didn't pay me for a session, this is supposed to be a social experience!

I keep getting hit on by old friends from school, who are looking for new mates.

Anyone interesting, pass a name and a photo on to me.

When somebody has an agenda, and the answers to their question is either "yes or no" - such as "can this person help my career?" or "can this person be my new spouse?"- then you really have a limited amount to talk about.

Is that why people avoid C of S registrars or C of S IAS events. Talk about an agenda, it is to empty your wallet, your bank accounts and max out your credit cards.

I had talks like that with Hollywood creatures on the look for somebody to help their career. As Carrie Fisher said,"Friendship is so hard in Hollywood, because everyone does sincerity so well."

Very cute line. She seemed to be getting on fine with "Jabba the Hut" but somehow the chain which she was trying to give him as a token or her friendship sort of got caught around his neck and caused a slight accident,

If you go up to *anyone* with sincere interest in them, you can have a conversation. Add in respect and admiration, and you are on your way.

Talking to someone is not a TR. In real conversations, if someone says something, you don't just say "OK" You have to follow up with a hand off piece of conversation. It shows that you are interested and alive.

True in general, but once in a while you meet someone who is starved for an acknowledgement and just giving them one good ack leads them to tell you their whole life story. Do you agree?

If someone is on a roll, you don't interrupt them. You don't say , in essence, "my turn to talk" - you help them to itsa all they have popping to view.

Good advice!

Then of course, there are older people, who aren't happy if they aren't the focus of attention. That gets really old fast.

Careful with the use of that term, older people, that is a very sensitive area with me.!

Well, I can see by my watch, that it is time I go rent a house. let's do lunch sometime. Have your people get in touch with my people.

Yes. meet me at the Santa Monica Airport. I have a job only a few blocks away and they have a nice lunch room there at the airport.
Lakey

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Yes. meet me at the Santa Monica Airport. I have a job only a few blocks away and they have a nice lunch room there at the airport.
Lakey

I prefer the Yahoo cafe on the Yahoo campus on Colorado about a mile from the airport.

Then there is always the Third St. Promenade

Better yet, the Cheesecake Factory in Brentwood

 

[lkwdblds]

The ex singing waitress.

I prefer the Yahoo cafe on the Yahoo campus on Colorado about a mile from the airport.

Then there is always the Third St. Promenade

Better yet, the Cheesecake Factory in Brentwood

The Yahoo cafe sounds the best to me. We'll have to PM if you are serious about doing this. You never did clarify what all the 99999's that were associated with your cat meant. I could not decode that statement.

I came up with a compromise, a sort of wimpy approach to the ex singing waitress. I will send a letter by snail mail, give her a little communcation on what I am doing these days, leave my contact numbers, phone, and email address, and then say that I would like to hear from her so if she is interested in getting back in communication after 25 years, she can either call or email me.

Look, back in 1977 on the old OTVI, I looked out my window toward Europe and postulated I would receive a personal letter from Europe within one year and I met her in 1978 and she went to Spain and sent me a personal letter from there in just under a year so that the postulate worked.

If I could cause that to happen in 1978, then in 2010, I ought to be able to get her to email me a letter from San Bernardino County where she lives to Orange County where I live, a distance of perhaps 50 miles.

That will put the ball in her court. My prediction is as follows, I get an email - 60%, I get a phone call 10% and no response at all 30%. I'll let you know how it goes.
Lakey

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Do you actually know the Yahoo cafe? It's a geek haunt. Do you know the Yahoo campus?

the nines were the cat standing on the keyboard asking to be petted.

Phone her.

The Yahoo cafe sounds the best to me. We'll have to PM if you are serious about doing this. You never did clarify what all the 99999's that were associated with your cat meant. I could not decode that statement.

I came up with a compromise, a sort of wimpy approach to the ex singing waitress. I will send a letter by snail mail, give her a little communcation on what I am doing these days, leave my contact numbers, phone, and email address, and then say that I would like to hear from her so if she is interested in getting back in communication after 25 years, she can either call or email me.

Look, back in 1977 on the old OTVI, I looked out my window toward Europe and postulated I would receive a personal letter from Europe within one year and I met her in 1978 and she went to Spain and sent me a personal letter from there in just under a year so that the postulate worked.

If I could cause that to happen in 1978, then in 2010, I ought to be able to get her to email me a letter from San Bernardino County where she lives to Orange County where I live, a distance of perhaps 50 miles.

That will put the ball in her court. My prediction is as follows, I get an email - 60%, I get a phone call 10% and no response at all 30%. I'll let you know how it goes.
Lakey

 

[Blue Spirit]

deleted for unknown reasons

 

[lkwdblds]

I Googled the Yahoo campus earlier in the day.

Do you actually know the Yahoo cafe? It's a geek haunt. Do you know the Yahoo campus?

the nines were the cat standing on the keyboard asking to be petted.

Phone her.

I don't know the yahoo campus but Googled it earlier in the day. Apparently it was called something else recently. I like Greek food very much.

Your cat is much better hatted than mine. Mine has jumped up on the keyboard twice while I was at the end of composing long posts. Both time, blip, and the posts were totally wiped out. One time I took over 30 minutes to rewrite the post while the other time, I just lost it and was not in the mood to retype it. Now, when I sense the cat approaching I keep her away from the keyboard.

I was typing the letter to the ex singing waitress and nearly decided to call her around 7:00 pm. However, I finished the letter, printed it out and put it in an envelope ready to be mailed. Writing it, however, was a cathartic action and made me feel more comfortable in making the call.

I Right now, mileage wise, she and I are only 50 miles apart, Orange County to San Bernardino County.

Probably tomorrow, I will just make the call as you suggest and not bother with the letter. It is amazing that I still have back off on making that type of phone call, that kind of reach to another person. There is some fear in me which comes alive when I want to reach for someone in a non conventional manner, such as calling someone cold turkey after waiting 25 years. There is really no risk, other than being rejected. If she doesn't respond or were even to hang up on me, which would be the worst possible thing that could happen, I would not really care in the least and yet I have back off on making the call. Very interesting.
Lakey

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

I don't know the yahoo campus but Googled it earlier in the day. Apparently it was called something else recently. I like Greek food very much.

geek not Greek
The term "geek" originally referred to the carnival performers whose act consisted of biting the heads off chickens and eating glass. Over time it came to be applied to anyone who got paid to do work considered odd or bizarre by mainstream society.

The term now enjoys a special status within the technical community, particularly among particularly knowledgable computer programmers. To identify oneself as a "geek" indicates a recognition that most people still consider programming computers to be a bizarre act, along with a certain fierce satisfaction in being very good at their inglorious profession.

That most software geeks now easily earn twice as much as the average laborer just sweetens their defiant embrace of the term.

Note: Unlike the word "nerd," which is always pejorative, "geek" often carries a positive connotation when used by one of the group. The use of the term by outsiders is considered insulting.
"If you really need the right answer, check with Bob; he's our resident alpha geek."

I was typing the letter to the ex singing waitress and nearly decided to call her around 7:00 pm. However, I finished the letter, printed it out and put it in an envelope ready to be mailed. Writing it, however, was a cathartic action and made me feel more comfortable in making the call.

I Right now, mileage wise, she and I are only 50 miles apart, Orange County to San Bernardino County.

Probably tomorrow, I will just make the call as you suggest and not bother with the letter. It is amazing that I still have back off on making that type of phone call, that kind of reach to another person. There is some fear in me which comes alive when I want to reach for someone in a non conventional manner, such as calling someone cold turkey after waiting 25 years. There is really no risk, other than being rejected. If she doesn't respond or were even to hang up on me, which would be the worst possible thing that could happen, I would not really care in the least and yet I have back off on making the call. Very interesting.

My suggest is that you make a date to meet her at Victoria Gardens. Even on a rainy day or night, it's fun to just wander around. You can hop on the 91 to the 15, get off at Foothill Blvd, and you're there in less than 45 minutes.

Victoria Gardens is a fun shopping center. There are speakers everywhere playing 30s and 40s jazz, Tony Bennett, Frank Sinatra, Lady Day, Ella, Duke, etc. It is set up like a city on a grid with streets. As for stores there's Urban Outfitters, See's Candies, Cheescake Factory, Abercrombie and Fitch, Apple, Macys, Jamba Juice, and on and on. You can walk and walk, talk and talk. It is safe and non threatening. If you get hungry, there's food.

Be excited to see / meet her. What you project can sink or float your boat.

 

[hbeer]

The term "geek" originally referred to the carnival performers whose act consisted of biting the heads off chickens and eating glass. Over time it came to be applied to anyone who got paid to do work considered odd or bizarre by mainstream society.

The term now enjoys a special status within the technical community, particularly among particularly knowledgable computer programmers. To identify oneself as a "geek" indicates a recognition that most people still consider programming computers to be a bizarre act, along with a certain fierce satisfaction in being very good at their inglorious profession.

That most software geeks now easily earn twice as much as the average laborer just sweetens their defiant embrace of the term.

Note: Unlike the word "nerd," which is always pejorative, "geek" often carries a positive connotation when used by one of the group. The use of the term by outsiders is considered insulting.
"If you really need the right answer, check with Bob; he's our resident alpha geek."

Right! They also think rather highly of themselves, and not so very highly of the average user.

Here is what they think about users, expressed in geek language (actually it is a very simple SQL statement with its response. SQL = "Structured Query Language", a database language).

For a geek these two lines are a joke that makes them line charge (at least it made me line charge):


SELECT * FROM Users WHERE clue>0;
0 rows returned


Anyone wants to translate?



.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Right! They also think rather highly of themselves, and not so very highly of the average user.

Here is what they think about users, expressed in geek language (actually it is a very simple SQL statement with its response. SQL = "Structured Query Language", a database language).

For a geek these two lines are a joke that makes them line charge (at least it made me line charge):


SELECT * FROM Users WHERE clue>0;
0 rows returned


Anyone wants to translate?



.

it is very simple, it is a simple sort (as in sorting a subcategory). those who have a clue (greater than zero). the sort produced zero with a clue

ie. clueless

so what do you mean "they"?

as the saying goes, there are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

I think its "we"


Am I busted?

 

[hbeer]

it is very simple, it is a simple sort (as in sorting a subcategory). those who have a clue (greater than zero). the sort produced zero with a clue

ie. clueless

so what do you mean "they"

as the saying goes, there are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

I think its "we"


Am I busted?

Perfect! You passed! It's "we" indeed



.

 

[lkwdblds]

How could you know about such an obscure city?

geek not Greek
The term "geek" originally referred to the carnival performers whose act consisted of biting the heads off chickens and eating glass. Over time it came to be applied to anyone who got paid to do work considered odd or bizarre by mainstream society.

The term now enjoys a special status within the technical community, particularly among particularly knowledgable computer programmers. To identify oneself as a "geek" indicates a recognition that most people still consider programming computers to be a bizarre act, along with a certain fierce satisfaction in being very good at their inglorious profession.

That most software geeks now easily earn twice as much as the average laborer just sweetens their defiant embrace of the term.

Note: Unlike the word "nerd," which is always pejorative, "geek" often carries a positive connotation when used by one of the group. The use of the term by outsiders is considered insulting.
"If you really need the right answer, check with Bob; he's our resident alpha geek."




My suggest is that you make a date to meet her at Victoria Gardens. Even on a rainy day or night, it's fun to just wander around. You can hop on the 91 to the 15, get off at Foothill Blvd, and you're there in less than 45 minutes.

Victoria Gardens is a fun shopping center. There are speakers everywhere playing 30s and 40s jazz, Tony Bennett, Frank Sinatra, Lady Day, Ella, Duke, etc. It is set up like a city on a grid with streets. As for stores there's Urban Outfitters, See's Candies, Cheescake Factory, Abercrombie and Fitch, Apple, Macys, Jamba Juice, and on and on. You can walk and walk, talk and talk. It is safe and non threatening. If you get hungry, there's food.

Be excited to see / meet her. What you project can sink or float your boat.

Carmenlo, how could you know the big action spot in such an obscure City as Yucaipa? The poplulation is only about 20K. What is it with you and "The Cheesecake Factory"? You are always mentioning it, do you own stock in the company? We have one about 3 miles away in Brea, CA. My take on it is that it is above average food in a nice setting but that it is a bit pricey. Also, there is usually an effort made to leave room for dessert. I already have a weight problem and the last thing I need is dessert.

Interesting about the history of the term Geek and the discussions of it between you and Heidrun. I was glad to see all this activity had occurred while I was sleeping (with my cat). By the way, have you heard the Jewish joke, "Who sleeps with cats?" Answer: "Mrs. Katz."

On the terms, I tended to think of geek and nerd as sort of synonyms and they are definitely not. Usually nerds are capable of earning above average income as are Geeks, but that is the only major trait they share. Nerds have negative charisma, the way they dress and choose their color and pattern matches is a laugh. A guy might wear a shirt with a check pattern of light brown and dark brown squares while his pants might be grey with stripes. If he is wearing a tie, it would be a paisely in a non matching color. Oddly, though of high IQ, the nerd would see nothing wrong with his outfit.

Thanks for the tips on how to approach the ex singing waitress. That zeroed in my perception a lot better and shed more light on the trepidation and fear of making the call, but did not blow that charge by inspection. Your post assumes that my reason for calling her is to resurrect the old romance, i.e. wanting to get involved with her again romantically. That is not necessarily what I am going for. That is where the problem lies, I do not actually know what I am going for or why I am making the call.

That was why I liked writing a letter and sending it off. If she is glad to hear from me and makes a strong reach back, I would re evaluate the situation and then shift to your plan of attack. If she does not repond or responds mildy, I would re evaluate using that information. In all truth, at this stage of life, probably what attracts me the most is NOT my previous romantic interest 30 years ago but the need to find someone to go to concerts with and enjoy music with, something which I really need in life. My daughter took piano for 14 years and is quite accomplished and I love to go with her but she has her own life now up in Santa Barbara so I rarely get to see her. The ex singing waitress, had a beautiful singing voice and a fine knowledge of music and was always involved in staging productions and performing in them and that is really why I want to call her. Music, plus the connection to her deceased Sister is what would bring us together if we were going to resume being friends again.

I really appreciate your remark about tbeing excited to see her and that what I project may make or break the deal. That was important to hear!
Lakey

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Tragedy

The other day, Vl of Hearts posted his story of selling Rex Fowler (the OTVll who killed his employee and shot himself over New Years in Colorado) his first Dianetics book. He goes on to say Rex was a good guy.

see this post (for source of my synopsis):

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=364319#post364319

Reed Slatkin found his father's dead body in their garage - dead of suicide when Reed was 14. Reed's uncle, his mom's brother, a Scientologist, took Reed, and gave him auditing on the experience. That is what got Reed involved with Scientology and Dianetics. Reed was a good kid too. His ex wife, Mary Jo is a good person. Reed was convicted of being responsible for the largest Ponzi scheme up till Madoff got charged.

I don't post long essays. I have plenty of thoughts on this. But,

have a listing question anyway.

What happens to good people gone way wrong?

The tech discussion started by RogerB seems a good place to begin.

My guess is that most everyone's story of why they joined the SO, IAS, etc and how their personalities shifted is a related subject.

Same with the German population in the 1930s.

Why do good people FLIP?

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Snow in Yucaipa!

MMMMmmmm, cheescake! The cat stepped on the nine button on purpose, to send Lakey a secret message that he has plenty more time to live it up! With a singing waitress or someone else. There's a lid for every pot Lakey, stay open to meeting new friends!

It SNOWED in Yucaipa recently... maybe not such a good place to take a hot date! Or maybe yes, if you think cold air will be more conducive to cuddling...

Why do good people flip? I don't think they do, Carmelo. Many people appear to be better than they actually are, until they get a little power to act under their belts, as part of their socialization, to "fit in" with the group.

Either a streak of larceny is always there but held under control by socialization or caring for one's fellow beings, or whatever, until someone gets to feeling entitled or overempowered to "run their own racket", or someone was merely "acting good" to get perceived benefits from being part of the program, part of the group, whatever. Self-interest rules for some, always. Other-orientedness directs others, most of the time. People's basic nature really doesn't change that much over time...

Although they can fake it for short bursts...

Anybody is capable of anything, depending on their viewpoint at the time, and their motivation. How to we encourage people to be more pro than anti-social is what we should be examining, in my humble opinion...

 

[Enthetan]

For comparison's sake, we have the Fahrenheit and Centigrade temperature scales. Centigrade makes so much more sense, using the freezing point of water as zero and the boiling point as 100 degrees. By comparison, the Fahrenheit system looks totally arbitrary. Of course there is a third scale, the Kelvin Scale where absolute zero is represented as zero. This scale is not readily suitable for practical use because day to day temperatures would be expressed in much higher numbers, more difficult for calculations.
Lakey

My personal opinion: one advantage of the Fahrenheit scale is that it has the 0-to-100 part of the scale aligning with the lowest and highest temps that people in Europe were likely to encounter, which might explain its popularity.

 

[lkwdblds]

I used to idolize Heber Jentzsch.

MMMMmmmm, cheescake! The cat stepped on the nine button on purpose, to send Lakey a secret message that he has plenty more time to live it up! With a singing waitress or someone else. There's a lid for every pot Lakey, stay open to meeting new friends!

It SNOWED in Yucaipa recently... maybe not such a good place to take a hot date! Or maybe yes, if you think cold air will be more conducive to cuddling...

Why do good people flip? I don't think they do, Carmelo. Many people appear to be better than they actually are, until they get a little power to act under their belts, as part of their socialization, to "fit in" with the group.

Either a streak of larceny is always there but held under control by socialization or caring for one's fellow beings, or whatever, until someone gets to feeling entitled or overempowered to "run their own racket", or someone was merely "acting good" to get perceived benefits from being part of the program, part of the group, whatever. Self-interest rules for some, always. Other-orientedness directs others, most of the time. People's basic nature really doesn't change that much over time...

Although they can fake it for short bursts...

Anybody is capable of anything, depending on their viewpoint at the time, and their motivation. How to we encourage people to be more pro than anti-social is what we should be examining, in my humble opinion...

You hit on some good points here Sweetness! I used to idolize Heber Jentzsch to such a point that I used him for a role model. When the Mayo group broke away from C of S, I was tempted to leave then as my Brother did. I had seen Mayo speak at lectures and had read his HCOB's and always thought he was technically sound and spoke the truth. I never for one second ever even considered that he was a suppressive person or a squirrel. I thought there was a war between the Miscavige faction, the Broeker faction and perhaps the Jane Kember and Mary Sue Hubbard faction. To me Mayo was just a casualty of the resulting war for control of the Church when LRH got off the lines. I knew Ray Mithoff a bit at CCLA and was good friends with his brother Bob Mithoff and I never thought that Ray was in the same league in tech as David Mayo was. When Heber stayed with DM and bad mouthed Mayo, I only then made my final decision and stayed in the Church. I figured Heber had more access to all the facts than I did and I admired the man so much that he was my opinion leader and I went with him and the Church. Same thing with Rinder, In his earlier days, he seemed like the salt of the Earth, just a really fine man. He was changed by DM and became just the opposite but finally had enough and changed back.

Carmelo, I don't have a quick answer to your question but the fact that such a seemingly fine man as Heber Jetzsch ultimately did a flip is where I took my first look at the question. Sweetness stated some of the quick points that come to mind quite well so I am going to take some more time, reread what Roger B. had to say, kick some things around and then try to flesh out my answer a little later.
Lakey

 

[Enthetan]

Anyway, whether Watson was a Nazi sympathizer and used computers to aid Nazi's to kill Jews more efficiently or not, has no bearing at all on the question which I put forth to Roger and to the board in general. Even if there was a huge electronic computer industry in existence in 1937 in Nazi Germany and in the United States and even if Watson aided Nazis in Germany by using his computers in helping the Nazi's to track down and kill Jews in larger numbers and more efficiently, my question as to whether the Internet has any potential to better the condition of mankind on Earth would still be a valid question to ask and the answer to that question would not be effected n any way by what Watson did in the 1930's. Watson died in 1956, nearly 40 years before the internet came into its own.
Lakey

I think that the Internet has a role similar to the firearm in equalizing power relationships.

Some may consider the above statement controversial, so let me explain.

Prior to firearms, you had noblemen in expensive armor, riding expensive horses, being the dominant force. A small group of armored knights was militarily superior to a much larger group of unarmored peasants. As long as that was the case, feudalism was the dominant political system. Once firearms cheap enough to be owned by a commoner came on the scene, and common people could blow holes in knights, then feudalism faded and democracy came on the scene.

Similarly, before the Internet, only corporations had the ability to widely publish opinions. Now any blogger has a potential worldwide audience. Before, researching the news and legal statutes required LEXIS and NEXIS access, generally only available to professionals. Now, anybody can research information throughout the world.

 

[AnonKat]

This was horrible enough in itself but some children were put in there as well!
In my book that would be classified as a High Crime.

Keep in mind that the chain locker was a dangerous and scary place to be put in. One adult nearly was killed there. Was it no pleasure for adults, the experience for little children must have been a very traumatic one.


He put this 4½ year old little boy - Derek Greene - into the chain locker for two days and two nights. It's a closed metal container, it's wet, it's full of water and seaweed, it smells bad. But Derek was sitting up, on the chain, in this place, on his own, in the dark, for two days and two nights... people heard him crying. That is sheer, total brutality. That is child abuse.

Hubbard had ordered a little girl who was a deafmute down into the chain locker sometime in 1968. Hubbard was going to cure her deaf-ness by shoving her down there! This came to my attention after she'd been there for about a week because the Master at Arms at the time, a beautiful girl, came to me and said, "John, I've got to have you come and see what's going on."

McMaster remembers once being asked by the Master at Arms to come and help her, He pulled up the wedge from the chain-locker, a dank and unhealthy part of the ship into which offenders were flung without food as a punishment. Out crawled a little girl who turned out to be a deaf-mute who had been unable to write her name and had incurred the Commodore's wrath.

Affidavit of Monica Pignotti

I also witnessed a fourteen year old boy being locked up in the chain locker of the ship, where he was made to spend the night. The chain locker is a small dark space where the chain to the anchor to the ship is stored when the ship is not at anchor. The boy was being put in the chain locker by three teen-age L. Ron Hubbard messengers. I witnessed this happening several times to people, even though I never experienced it myself.

Interview with David Mayo (auf Deutsch)

The length of time for children would vary, but no one was there less than a day. The average was a week or two. Three weeks was about the maximum. Age didn't matter. The youngest kids were 5, 6 or 7. Old, young, men, women, big, little; it wouldn't matter because to Scientologists the being is ageless so you don't think in terms of how young or old someone is.

Lawrence Wollersheim interviews Jesse Prince who was 2nd in command of Scientology

Just looking at it now, those children were so under-nourished, just not whole, complete children, because L. Ron Hubbard figures barley water is better than milk. . . I've seen those children, 15 to 20 of them in a filthy room, filthy carpet, food everywhere, and playing. If one of them got out of line, they'd just lock them in a room and let them scream itself to death, or scream itself to sleep. . . They make them do what's called rocks and shows, where if they do something that they weren't told to do, they have to do sit-ups, push-ups from the cradle they are punished. From the cradle the children are punished.

FLAG ORDER 1630 , 3 December 1968 by L. Ron Hubbard

If a child or these children are found in Hold l _or_ any hidden compartment of the ship they are to be locked up.

Affidavit of Tonja C. Burden
25 January 1980

On a number of occasions, I saw people placed in the 'chain lockers' of the boat on direct orders of Hubbard. These lockers were small, smelly holes, covered by grates where the chain for the anchor was stored. I saw one boy held in there for 30 nights, crying and begging to be released. He was only allowed out to clean the bilges where the sewer and refuse of the ship collected. I believe his 'crimes' were taking or using a musical instrument, I believe a flute, of someone else without permission. I also saw a young boy and a young girl thrown in the chain lockers at separate times because of romantic involvements they had with other people.

Life aboard Scientology's ship 'The Apollo' in 1968
Posting of Steve Manning 8 Mar 2000

I was twelve years old and witnessed children younger than myself being thrown into the chain locker (a room for storing the anchor while at sea) for days on end until they persuaded the ethics officer that they were not enemies. Physical abuse of children was rife.

Sister page: Children and teens and Scientology's Rehabilitation Project Force (RPF)

According to Scientology "Any law which applies to the behavior of men and women applies to children" and "A child is a man or a woman who has not attained full growth." On the basis of these direct quotes of the founder of Scientology and Dianetics, L. Ron Hubbard, it is no surprise that the harsh forced labour and self-confessions on the RPF program with its social isolation and a maximum of 6 hours of sleep per night, is also applied to children.