The Catholic Church has TAKEN THE GLOVES OFF!!!!!

[Smilla]

The Whore of Babylon fighting the Beast!

It doesn't get any better than this.

They pulled it in.

 

[Spirited]

Others have claimed the belief system of the Catholic church is as goofy as that of the Co$. I beg to differ.

When I left the Catholic church, they did not send anyone to try and return me to the fold.

When I explained my doubts to my pastor, he pointed out where he believed I went astray-then he prayed for me. I remain welcome and am free to attend any service I choose.

No one in my large extended Catholic family has ever disconnected from me.

I have never heard from any source that the leader of the Catholic religion (the pope) has ever engaged in the wide spread human abuses as those alleged against Miscavige. Further, those cases of abuse committed by members of this religion are not sanctioned by the "copyrighted scriptures" of the Catholic church. (I am not condoning the Catholic Church's cover-up of those crimes).


So for those that would accuse the Catholic Church of being a pot "calling the kettle black", think again. No one, including the Catholics, believe they are perfect. Show me one scientologist who believe that LRH (or DM) is NOT perfect.

Skydog, “those” would actually be my post “pot calling the kettle black” you are referring to.
You missed the point of my post entirely. It refers to the article directly.
The article is not about abuses or whether you get disconnected etc, it is discussing scientology “doctrine re beliefs”. From that point of view it is "pot calling kettle black" as catholic scriptures have some unproven “interesting", for want of a better word, beliefs in it too.

As far as human abuse goes. Lets not be naive. There was a time when you could get burned alive or beheaded , stoned to death or have a sword plunged through your chest etc for not believing in that system, and in certain religions people still get killed today all in the name of “religion“, so lets not pretend that abuses don’t exist or haven’t existed.
I’ve been to the Vatican and was there during a Pope address when he was completely off his head on drugs of sorts ,and it was a weird atmosphere to say the least. Do we know what actually goes on behind the great walls of the Vatican? NO we don’t. Is it all in full view for all to see? No it is not. Is it all loving and beautiful? It didn't feel that way to me when I was there but I don’t speculate on this matter as I really don’t know...., but I know this.
MY grandmother was well and truly disgustingly abused “big time” by the catholic priests in her town for having a child out of wedlock. She apparently had the “devil” inside her and was evil for doing so and had to have it knocked out of her apparently. This was in the 1940’s!! Not that long ago. but I Wont go into that as it is not the point of my post.

I am not rooting for scientology as I think the whole Xenu thing is
my post was about one belief system versus another., yes the catholic doctrine is up front but at the end of the day they are all just “beliefs” IMO and all assert their rightness on those beliefs. In that regard, Its all eyebrow raising for me.
……. but definitely not good news for the cult.

 

[skydog]

Skydog, “those” would actually be my post “pot calling the kettle black” you are referring to.
You missed the point of my post entirely. It refers to the article directly.
The article is not about abuses or whether you get disconnected etc, it is discussing scientology “doctrine re beliefs”. From that point of view it is "pot calling kettle black" as catholic scriptures have some unproven “interesting", for want of a better word, beliefs in it too.

As far as human abuse goes. Lets not be naive. There was a time when you could get burned alive or beheaded , stoned to death or have a sword plunged through your chest etc for not believing in that system, and in certain religions people still get killed today all in the name of “religion“, so lets not pretend that abuses don’t exist or haven’t existed.
I’ve been to the Vatican and was there during a Pope address when he was completely off his head on drugs of sorts ,and it was a weird atmosphere to say the least. Do we know what actually goes on behind the great walls of the Vatican? NO we don’t. Is it all in full view for all to see? No it is not. Is it all loving and beautiful? It didn't feel that way to me when I was there but I don’t speculate on this matter as I really don’t know...., but I know this.
MY grandmother was well and truly disgustingly abused “big time” by the catholic priests in her town for having a child out of wedlock. She apparently had the “devil” inside her and was evil for doing so and had to have it knocked out of her apparently. This was in the 1940’s!! Not that long ago. but I Wont go into that as it is not the point of my post.

I am not rooting for scientology as I think the whole Xenu thing is
my post was about one belief system versus another., yes the catholic doctrine is up front but at the end of the day they are all just “beliefs” IMO and all assert their rightness on those beliefs. In that regard, Its all eyebrow raising for me.
……. but definitely not good news for the cult.

I meant no offense to anyone in general or you in particular. We can argue all we want about whose god or belief system is better. You are right-the more such belief systems are argued, the crazier each side appears. The issue in my opinion is not the beliefs, but rather the current practices of each group. I am not defending either the beliefs of the Catholics or those instances of criminal conduct or human rights abuses engaged in by members of that faith.

 

[Spirited]

No offense taken what so ever skydog. Its a discussion board and we all have different points of view. I was just responding and clarifying what I meant.

 

[byte301]

You could go on with the comparisons, but if they're anything like the ones you've made so far, they would also be wrong.

The Jesuit order is NOT the Catholic version of OSA. Jesuits do not report back to the Vatican on enemies of the church. They are not an evil organization planning world domination. Opus Dei might have gotten tarred with the conspiracy brush by the Da Vinci Code, but they also aren't an OSA group.

As far as I can tell, the CoS rituals are a mixture of interrogation, hypnosis and brain washing. Notes are taken, and then placed in a folder. These folders are sometimes sent to others and mulled over. There are claims that this information is then used to blackmail those who want to leave. In a Catholic confession, no notes are kept. The priest is not allowed to discuss "your case" with anyone. If he does, he will be kicked out. No ifs, no buts, no maybes. The sanctity of the confessional cannot be tarnished by anyone. A priest who reveals what he knows will not be in the church for long.

True, the Catholic church does have excommunication, but... if you are excommunicated you are still allowed to talk to anyone. Parishioners are not told to shun you, or else. And if you are excommunicated, you can still attend church (you just can't take communion).

The Catholic Church is not in the same league as the CoS when it comes to property. They are in a different galaxy. Just start with the Vatican. That's prime real estate in one of the most beautiful cities in the world. It's not some god-awful ex-hospital building that was painted blue to save cash. Ideal Orgs? Considering how proud Scientology is of their "artists," it's sad that the only art/decoration the CoS can produce is gaudy, tacky, kitsch and tasteless. Go to any of the Catholic churches just in Rome and you will see true works of art. Then go anywhere else in Italy. Or France. Or Spain. etc. etc. When it comes to property, the CoS is still renting a double-wide in a trailer park, while the Catholic church has the Vatican. It's not the same. Of course, the Catholic church did have a 2000 year head start.

As for the comparison between the COB and the Pope.... well, it's just laughable. The COB weasled his way to the top by staging a coup after LRH died. The Pope, not so much. The Pope is also a very public figure. He gives speeches, holds mass, and can be visited in person if you write to ask for an audience in advance. You don't even need to be a Catholic to request an audience. How do you go about meeting Miscavige? Can you even get close to him? His whereabouts are "top secret." Why?

As the figurehead of what he claims to be "the fastest growing religion," he should be in the public eye, showing off just how great Scientology is. But the last time COB was on TV was on Nightline in 1992. That's 18 years ago! While the Pope has to know the scriptures backwards, forwards and sideways (he was also "a defender of the faith" in his younger days), I don't see Miscavige doing the same thing. Do you think Miscavige even goes for auditing?

When the Pope is chosen, the world watches. He becomes the spiritual leader for HUNDREDS of millions of people. When the Pope says something, world leaders listen. When leaders visit Rome, it is common for them to also have an audience with the Pope. When Miscavige speaks, I'm guessing most world leaders go "who the fuck is this dwarf with the terrible accent?"

Also, don't you think it's pathetic that the leader of ANY church is impressed by Hollywood celebrity? The COB lurves to hang out with Tom Cruise because he believes he's a star. It empowers him. The Pope again, not so much. It's the other way around. The Church is the star, and the Pope's job is to keep it that way.

As for the structure of the Church, again the two can't be compared. Of the senior ranking Bishops, Archbishops, etc., how many have been excommunicated and thus kicked out of the church? Compare that to the high ranking members kicked out from the CoS... where the entire level of upper-management has been replaced.

Last but not least, the Catholic church is open to dialogue with other religions and does a lot of good, all around the world, for those suffering from hunger, disease, poverty, etc., even if those that they are helping are not Catholic. The CoS doesn't seem to engage in anything (that they offer for free).

There is no Catholic RPF. Or Jewish RPF. Or Buddhist RPF. But CoS has a prison camp system.... how nice!

The Catholic Church has the cross as a symbol. The cross has a meaning. It is a constant reminder, for believers, of the suffering of Jesus. Does the cross have any meaning in Scientology? No! It's nothing more than a corporate logo, used cynically by an organization that thinks it knows which boxes to tick in order to pass off as a religion.

Oh, and Bibles are free. You can get "the whole story" up front without paying a dime. No regging. No hassle. No love-bombing attacks.

The Catholic Church and the CoS only have one thing in common... they both use the word "church." But it ends there.

They are not the same. They are not even remotely similar.

^^^^This.

 

[Thrak]

I could see why Cof$ would have a problem with the Catholic Church. Some of their sacred beliefs are that they have the right to to lie, extort, abuse, and as well to mock any group who doesn't agree with them and simply label them as "implanted". Since the Catholic Church doesn't agree with having their most iconic figures referred to as "implants", then they are obviously a "HATE GROUP" actively suppressing scn, are clearly opposed to the freedom of mankind, and should be put on the shit list of the Orange County police.

 

[GoNuclear]

The Vatican/NWO

You could go on with the comparisons, but if they're anything like the ones you've made so far, they would also be wrong.

The Jesuit order is NOT the Catholic version of OSA. Jesuits do not report back to the Vatican on enemies of the church. They are not an evil organization planning world domination. Opus Dei might have gotten tarred with the conspiracy brush by the Da Vinci Code, but they also aren't an OSA group.

As far as I can tell, the CoS rituals are a mixture of interrogation, hypnosis and brain washing. Notes are taken, and then placed in a folder. These folders are sometimes sent to others and mulled over. There are claims that this information is then used to blackmail those who want to leave. In a Catholic confession, no notes are kept. The priest is not allowed to discuss "your case" with anyone. If he does, he will be kicked out. No ifs, no buts, no maybes. The sanctity of the confessional cannot be tarnished by anyone. A priest who reveals what he knows will not be in the church for long.

True, the Catholic church does have excommunication, but... if you are excommunicated you are still allowed to talk to anyone. Parishioners are not told to shun you, or else. And if you are excommunicated, you can still attend church (you just can't take communion).

The Catholic Church is not in the same league as the CoS when it comes to property. They are in a different galaxy. Just start with the Vatican. That's prime real estate in one of the most beautiful cities in the world. It's not some god-awful ex-hospital building that was painted blue to save cash. Ideal Orgs? Considering how proud Scientology is of their "artists," it's sad that the only art/decoration the CoS can produce is gaudy, tacky, kitsch and tasteless. Go to any of the Catholic churches just in Rome and you will see true works of art. Then go anywhere else in Italy. Or France. Or Spain. etc. etc. When it comes to property, the CoS is still renting a double-wide in a trailer park, while the Catholic church has the Vatican. It's not the same. Of course, the Catholic church did have a 2000 year head start.

As for the comparison between the COB and the Pope.... well, it's just laughable. The COB weasled his way to the top by staging a coup after LRH died. The Pope, not so much. The Pope is also a very public figure. He gives speeches, holds mass, and can be visited in person if you write to ask for an audience in advance. You don't even need to be a Catholic to request an audience. How do you go about meeting Miscavige? Can you even get close to him? His whereabouts are "top secret." Why?

As the figurehead of what he claims to be "the fastest growing religion," he should be in the public eye, showing off just how great Scientology is. But the last time COB was on TV was on Nightline in 1992. That's 18 years ago! While the Pope has to know the scriptures backwards, forwards and sideways (he was also "a defender of the faith" in his younger days), I don't see Miscavige doing the same thing. Do you think Miscavige even goes for auditing?

When the Pope is chosen, the world watches. He becomes the spiritual leader for HUNDREDS of millions of people. When the Pope says something, world leaders listen. When leaders visit Rome, it is common for them to also have an audience with the Pope. When Miscavige speaks, I'm guessing most world leaders go "who the fuck is this dwarf with the terrible accent?"

Also, don't you think it's pathetic that the leader of ANY church is impressed by Hollywood celebrity? The COB lurves to hang out with Tom Cruise because he believes he's a star. It empowers him. The Pope again, not so much. It's the other way around. The Church is the star, and the Pope's job is to keep it that way.

As for the structure of the Church, again the two can't be compared. Of the senior ranking Bishops, Archbishops, etc., how many have been excommunicated and thus kicked out of the church? Compare that to the high ranking members kicked out from the CoS... where the entire level of upper-management has been replaced.

Last but not least, the Catholic church is open to dialogue with other religions and does a lot of good, all around the world, for those suffering from hunger, disease, poverty, etc., even if those that they are helping are not Catholic. The CoS doesn't seem to engage in anything (that they offer for free).

There is no Catholic RPF. Or Jewish RPF. Or Buddhist RPF. But CoS has a prison camp system.... how nice!

The Catholic Church has the cross as a symbol. The cross has a meaning. It is a constant reminder, for believers, of the suffering of Jesus. Does the cross have any meaning in Scientology? No! It's nothing more than a corporate logo, used cynically by an organization that thinks it knows which boxes to tick in order to pass off as a religion.

Oh, and Bibles are free. You can get "the whole story" up front without paying a dime. No regging. No hassle. No love-bombing attacks.

The Catholic Church and the CoS only have one thing in common... they both use the word "church." But it ends there.

They are not the same. They are not even remotely similar.

In addition to similarities, I also pointed out differences. As far as the comparisons, I was obviously painting with a broad brush. As far as plans to take over the world, the Vatican is actually in the best position to do so. Would they want to? Yes. Why to powerful men want more power and get it? Probably for the same reason that dogs lick their balls ... because they can.

The Vatican, in addition to being "flag" and the "int base" of the Catholic religion, is also considered to be a political power as well. Just about every nation on the planet has an ambassador to the Vatican.

The money system on planet earth ... right now, every single country/political entity on the planet is in a form of bankruptcy known as a receivership to various private, run-for-profit corporate entities known as central banks. The only thing in circulation as money is debt that has been monetized. No country on the planet today has gold or even silver coinage in circulation as money ... the only exception is, of course, the Vatican. Inside the Vatican, money is gold coinage. The average tourist going thru the Vatican may regard this as a quaint and old tradition, but there is more to it than that. True, the actual size of the Vatican both in land mass and in people is tiny, compared, say, to even a small country or even, say, the state of Rhode Island ... regardless, having gold coinage in circulation is some important symbolism. To those that understand, they are saying "The Vatican is Sovereign and not beholden to a central bank."

According to some who have studied the issue ... the Vatican sits on vast reserves of gold, gold that they aquired over many, many centuries. Which brings up another point ... the Vatican is the oldest political entity on the planet with a continuity of government. If I am not mistaken, the next oldest is the United States as far as continuity of a government ... HOWEVER ... the United States went bankrupt and into receivership to a private-run-for-profit corporation known as the Federal Reserve back in 1933, the evidence of which is HR 192, the abrogation of the gold standard.

The Vatican ran a program known as "the inquisition" for a long, long time. By the early 19th century, torturing people for not being Catholic had gone out of fashion, and, in 1809, the office of the inquisition was renamed to something or other about the purity of the doctrine of the faith or some such thing. Interestingly enough, Cardinal Ratzinger, now known as Pope Benedict the 16th, was the head of that particular office.

Regarding information on machinations/power plays within the Vatican ... I mentioned two sources, the writings of Charles Chiniquoy going back to the late 19th century, and the writings of Father Alberto Rivera, going back to the 1970's and 80's AFIK.

Anyways ... as I said, it comes down to who you find to be more credible, who you choose to believe. I don't believe that Catholics are bad people. I do believe in the old adage that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, and that amongst the very rich, powerful, and ambitious there is an appetite for more power that is simply not understood by the vast majority of those of us who want to provide for our families, enjoy our work and our time off, maybe have some hunting land out in the boondocks, maybe own a boat and get out on the lake from time to time, hang out with our friends, and in general not phug with others and not be phugged with ourselves. I also believe that the Vatican is better positioned than any other entity to hold sway over the entire planet.


Pete

 

[Once bitten]

Yes, the Catholic Church has certainly had its share of atrocities and human rights abuses, dating back hundreds of years. The Spanish Inquisition, Queen Mary..... we can all point the finger at something or other.

But for me, here is a HUGE difference between scn and any other religion. Apologies. The Catholic Church has said SORRY!! OK, sometimes it might not mean a hell of a lot if it is to someone who was abused in an orphanage by a screw-ball monk, but at least it is a start.

Has the cofs EVER said SORRY???

No. And that's what I see as a major difference. I'm really excited that the Catholic Church has jumped on the band wagon, and long may this criticism continue and spread.

 

[FlunkedForLaughing]

Maybe the CO$ will stop promoting the lie that you can be a Catholic and a Scientologist at the same time. Maybe they'll stop lying about Scientology not conflicting with other religions.

Who's that OTVIII guy who was interviewed on the radio who said he was Catholic? He said it like someone would say I'm a Catholic and an Accountant (or anything else non-religious).

 

[Thrak]

Maybe the CO$ will stop promoting the lie that you can be a Catholic and a Scientologist at the same time. Maybe they'll stop lying about Scientology not conflicting with other religions.

Who's that OTVIII guy who was interviewed on the radio who said he was Catholic? He said it like someone would say I'm a Catholic and an Accountant (or anything else non-religious).

Lyintologists doin what they do best.

 

[fisherman]

MarktheHungarian,

Thank you for your post! I had a long talk with a friend today (who happens to be a devout Jew) about how tired it gets reading the condemnations of Catholicism on scientology message boards. I'm not even Catholic, but for years I've noticed how poorly informed many who post to ALL the scientology boards seem to be regarding the history and culture of western religions. From the message boards, you'd think Torquemada was busy racking heretics only last Thursday.

I'm not trying to be snide. I simply appreciate your intelligent post that accurately depicts modern Catholicism. Again, I'm not a Catholic, but I do believe that comparing Scientology to any of the prominent religions in history is ludicrous. And "newness" has nothing to do with it. There are simply NO relevant points of comparison. Ultimately, that comparison, whether to Catholicism, to Judaism, Islam, Methodism, Lutheranism is simply silly.

Sorry to be so strident. But I've felt strongly about this for a number of years.

fisherman

You very cogently wrote:

You could go on with the comparisons, but if they're anything like the ones you've made so far, they would also be wrong.

The Jesuit order is NOT the Catholic version of OSA. Jesuits do not report back to the Vatican on enemies of the church. They are not an evil organization planning world domination. Opus Dei might have gotten tarred with the conspiracy brush by the Da Vinci Code, but they also aren't an OSA group.

As far as I can tell, the CoS rituals are a mixture of interrogation, hypnosis and brain washing. Notes are taken, and then placed in a folder. These folders are sometimes sent to others and mulled over. There are claims that this information is then used to blackmail those who want to leave. In a Catholic confession, no notes are kept. The priest is not allowed to discuss "your case" with anyone. If he does, he will be kicked out. No ifs, no buts, no maybes. The sanctity of the confessional cannot be tarnished by anyone. A priest who reveals what he knows will not be in the church for long.

True, the Catholic church does have excommunication, but... if you are excommunicated you are still allowed to talk to anyone. Parishioners are not told to shun you, or else. And if you are excommunicated, you can still attend church (you just can't take communion).

The Catholic Church is not in the same league as the CoS when it comes to property. They are in a different galaxy. Just start with the Vatican. That's prime real estate in one of the most beautiful cities in the world. It's not some god-awful ex-hospital building that was painted blue to save cash. Ideal Orgs? Considering how proud Scientology is of their "artists," it's sad that the only art/decoration the CoS can produce is gaudy, tacky, kitsch and tasteless. Go to any of the Catholic churches just in Rome and you will see true works of art. Then go anywhere else in Italy. Or France. Or Spain. etc. etc. When it comes to property, the CoS is still renting a double-wide in a trailer park, while the Catholic church has the Vatican. It's not the same. Of course, the Catholic church did have a 2000 year head start.

As for the comparison between the COB and the Pope.... well, it's just laughable. The COB weasled his way to the top by staging a coup after LRH died. The Pope, not so much. The Pope is also a very public figure. He gives speeches, holds mass, and can be visited in person if you write to ask for an audience in advance. You don't even need to be a Catholic to request an audience. How do you go about meeting Miscavige? Can you even get close to him? His whereabouts are "top secret." Why?

As the figurehead of what he claims to be "the fastest growing religion," he should be in the public eye, showing off just how great Scientology is. But the last time COB was on TV was on Nightline in 1992. That's 18 years ago! While the Pope has to know the scriptures backwards, forwards and sideways (he was also "a defender of the faith" in his younger days), I don't see Miscavige doing the same thing. Do you think Miscavige even goes for auditing?

When the Pope is chosen, the world watches. He becomes the spiritual leader for HUNDREDS of millions of people. When the Pope says something, world leaders listen. When leaders visit Rome, it is common for them to also have an audience with the Pope. When Miscavige speaks, I'm guessing most world leaders go "who the fuck is this dwarf with the terrible accent?"

Also, don't you think it's pathetic that the leader of ANY church is impressed by Hollywood celebrity? The COB lurves to hang out with Tom Cruise because he believes he's a star. It empowers him. The Pope again, not so much. It's the other way around. The Church is the star, and the Pope's job is to keep it that way.

As for the structure of the Church, again the two can't be compared. Of the senior ranking Bishops, Archbishops, etc., how many have been excommunicated and thus kicked out of the church? Compare that to the high ranking members kicked out from the CoS... where the entire level of upper-management has been replaced.

Last but not least, the Catholic church is open to dialogue with other religions and does a lot of good, all around the world, for those suffering from hunger, disease, poverty, etc., even if those that they are helping are not Catholic. The CoS doesn't seem to engage in anything (that they offer for free).

There is no Catholic RPF. Or Jewish RPF. Or Buddhist RPF. But CoS has a prison camp system.... how nice!

The Catholic Church has the cross as a symbol. The cross has a meaning. It is a constant reminder, for believers, of the suffering of Jesus. Does the cross have any meaning in Scientology? No! It's nothing more than a corporate logo, used cynically by an organization that thinks it knows which boxes to tick in order to pass off as a religion.

Oh, and Bibles are free. You can get "the whole story" up front without paying a dime. No regging. No hassle. No love-bombing attacks.

The Catholic Church and the CoS only have one thing in common... they both use the word "church." But it ends there.

They are not the same. They are not even remotely similar.

 

[AnonKat]

 

[Happy Aberree]

A Prayer For Tommy

Dear God,
I pray that Tommy Davis openly attacks the Roman Catholic Church in public. And I pray that you will help him through the aftermath. God (You) help him.
Amen

 

[Mick Wenlock]

In addition to similarities, I also pointed out differences. As far as the comparisons, I was obviously painting with a broad brush. As far as plans to take over the world, the Vatican is actually in the best position to do so. Would they want to? Yes. Why to powerful men want more power and get it? Probably for the same reason that dogs lick their balls ... because they can.

I would not doubt that there are people within the Vatican who have personal ambition and a drive for power but you have not, apart from your asserting it, shown that you have anything other than your imagination as a source for trying to impugn those who work in the Vatican. I make no claims about the personality of any that work there.

The Vatican, in addition to being "flag" and the "int base" of the Catholic religion, is also considered to be a political power as well. Just about every nation on the planet has an ambassador to the Vatican.

The money system on planet earth ... right now, every single country/political entity on the planet is in a form of bankruptcy known as a receivership to various private, run-for-profit corporate entities known as central banks. The only thing in circulation as money is debt that has been monetized. No country on the planet today has gold or even silver coinage in circulation as money ... the only exception is, of course, the Vatican. Inside the Vatican, money is gold coinage. The average tourist going thru the Vatican may regard this as a quaint and old tradition, but there is more to it than that. True, the actual size of the Vatican both in land mass and in people is tiny, compared, say, to even a small country or even, say, the state of Rhode Island ... regardless, having gold coinage in circulation is some important symbolism. To those that understand, they are saying "The Vatican is Sovereign and not beholden to a central bank."

The currency inside the Vatican is the Euro. And they are not "gold". Where do you get your information from? Have you been to Rome and to the Vatican?

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=4967

The Vatican is a Sovereign nation.

According to some who have studied the issue ... the Vatican sits on vast reserves of gold, gold that they aquired over many, many centuries. Which brings up another point ... the Vatican is the oldest political entity on the planet with a continuity of government. If I am not mistaken, the next oldest is the United States as far as continuity of a government ... HOWEVER ... the United States went bankrupt and into receivership to a private-run-for-profit corporation known as the Federal Reserve back in 1933, the evidence of which is HR 192, the abrogation of the gold standard.

The oldest continuous governments would be the Althing in Iceland (AD 930) or the Tynwald on the Isle of Man. Not the Vatican which did not rule anything like a country until the Lateran Treaty. A claim that it is the oldest continuous bureaucracy in the west would probably be accurate. The United States does not even come close. Even the UK is older than that - even if one dates it from the time of the Civil War.

As for the claims of "receivership" well OK, call it what you wish.

The Vatican ran a program known as "the inquisition" for a long, long time. By the early 19th century, torturing people for not being Catholic had gone out of fashion, and, in 1809, the office of the inquisition was renamed to something or other about the purity of the doctrine of the faith or some such thing. Interestingly enough, Cardinal Ratzinger, now known as Pope Benedict the 16th, was the head of that particular office.

And the point would be - ?

Regarding information on machinations/power plays within the Vatican ... I mentioned two sources, the writings of Charles Chiniquoy going back to the late 19th century, and the writings of Father Alberto Rivera, going back to the 1970's and 80's AFIK.

You did not answer my question about Unidroit - you brought it up, not I. I merely looked it up on the Internet. As for the two authors - I am sure there are many things that could be written about bad happenings within the Catholic Church but as you made no assertions about the points made separate from the general waffle there is nothing to address. What specific point, for example, that Rivera made would you like to tackle? Which of his writings would you like to refer to? A specific one that I can check?

I asked you for the source of the information about Unidroit - you mentioned how it was a wholly owned subsidiary of the Vatican and how it was involved in some sort of massive conspiracy. But you appear to have dropped this "claim".

Did you have something specific to refer to? I presume that you must have read it somewhere?

Anyways ... as I said, it comes down to who you find to be more credible, who you choose to believe. I don't believe that Catholics are bad people. I do believe in the old adage that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, and that amongst the very rich, powerful, and ambitious there is an appetite for more power that is simply not understood by the vast majority of those of us who want to provide for our families, enjoy our work and our time off, maybe have some hunting land out in the boondocks, maybe own a boat and get out on the lake from time to time, hang out with our friends, and in general not phug with others and not be phugged with ourselves. I also believe that the Vatican is better positioned than any other entity to hold sway over the entire planet.


Pete

Did you ever wonder how the Vatican would hold sway over a billion Chinese or a billion Indians? Or over Eastern Europe?

Now that would take divine intervention!

 

[KnightVision]

I find 'GoNuclear' to be doing just that! He's spouted out a 'Big Statement' from a 'belief angle' and is now trying without much success to 'handle the fallout'.

The idiocy of trying to put Scn crimes, abuse and outright disrespect for human life in a comparative argument with the Catholic Church or any other is beyond rationality because to attempt to do so... the (NOT SO) 'logic' of it hides from one very obvious and REALLY BIG FAT ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM:

Scn markets itself as the ONE AND ONLY 'religion' that is not corrupted by 'bankers, psychs, medicos, coppers....' and has the 'tek' to handle all of the 'REAL' reasons behind why good meaning folks fall prey to 'insane actions'...

It will all be just great 'once we'... Clear the Planet, Handle the reactive mind, loose those BT's, etc.

Come on.. What kind of cracker jack, ass backwards logic is being used to try and argue that in this day and age- when Scn supposedly would have had the benefit of learning from past mistakes by other religious groups... AND IN FACT STATES JUST THAT.... the REAL PROBLEM HAS BEEN SOLVED!!!!! We got it figured now mannnnnnnnnn!!! It's the REACTIVE MIND...


BLAH, BLAH, BLAH....

And yet in 60 short years it has managed to do so much damage, involve itself in so much crime, tear-rip-kill-steal... you name it jack! Scn has it all.

So... how bout gettin the BULLSHIT FACTS straight....

 

[GoNuclear]

Oh, how I would love to flame you, but

I would not doubt that there are people within the Vatican who have personal ambition and a drive for power but you have not, apart from your asserting it, shown that you have anything other than your imagination as a source for trying to impugn those who work in the Vatican. I make no claims about the personality of any that work there.



The currency inside the Vatican is the Euro. And they are not "gold". Where do you get your information from? Have you been to Rome and to the Vatican?

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=4967

The Vatican is a Sovereign nation.



The oldest continuous governments would be the Althing in Iceland (AD 930) or the Tynwald on the Isle of Man. Not the Vatican which did not rule anything like a country until the Lateran Treaty. A claim that it is the oldest continuous bureaucracy in the west would probably be accurate. The United States does not even come close. Even the UK is older than that - even if one dates it from the time of the Civil War.

As for the claims of "receivership" well OK, call it what you wish.



And the point would be - ?



You did not answer my question about Unidroit - you brought it up, not I. I merely looked it up on the Internet. As for the two authors - I am sure there are many things that could be written about bad happenings within the Catholic Church but as you made no assertions about the points made separate from the general waffle there is nothing to address. What specific point, for example, that Rivera made would you like to tackle? Which of his writings would you like to refer to? A specific one that I can check?

I asked you for the source of the information about Unidroit - you mentioned how it was a wholly owned subsidiary of the Vatican and how it was involved in some sort of massive conspiracy. But you appear to have dropped this "claim".

Did you have something specific to refer to? I presume that you must have read it somewhere?



Did you ever wonder how the Vatican would hold sway over a billion Chinese or a billion Indians? Or over Eastern Europe?

Now that would take divine intervention!

Oh, how I would love to flame you, but I would get in trouble with Emma.

Anyways, notice the use of the word "COIN" when it comes to the word "Euro". You prove my point. They are COINING Euro's, not printing them. There IS partial gold backing to the Euro. If the Vatican is "coining" the Euro, it is coining a gold Euro for its own use within the Vatican. The Vatican is not beholden to a central bank. Everyone else is.

Receivership? Call it that if I wish? The Federal Reserve, a private run-for-profit corporation says so in so many words. Over on your side of the pond, do you not have an equivalent to the Socialist Slavestate Number, er, oops, I mean Social Security Number? With its use you are "human resource asset" of a bankrupt corporate entity in receivership to a central bank. The only thing you have in your wallet is "evidence of debt" of said bankrupt and in receivership corporate entity, created via bond issuance to the Bank of England, which, BTW, is a huge shareholder of the Federal Reserve, owning a 50% interest, or at least they did back in the 90's. The Federal Reserve says in its own publications that "the debt of the United States is secured by the future labors of the American People". That would be like a restaurant saying that the meals of its diners are secured by the promise its diners to wash dishes ... meaning that the restaurant is serving people with no money. WE HAVE NO MONEY, ONLY BANK NOTES AND/OR BANK CREDIT UNITS, i.e., evidence of debt.

Meanwhile, wouldn't want to upset you ... take the blue pill, go back to sleep, and wake up believing whatever it is you want.

Pete

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Oh, how I would love to flame you, but I would get in trouble with Emma.

well it would definitely help in the flaming if you managed to actually come up with a fact and a source. So far - despite being asked - nothing, Were you going to actually bring something forth ?

as for flaming me - for what? Asking you to back up things you are asserting? Are you new to the internet and to argumentation, Pete? Did you not have anything to back up what you said? If so, why not just admit that and move on?

nyways, notice the use of the word "COIN" when it comes to the word "Euro". You prove my point. They are COINING Euro's, not printing them. There IS partial gold backing to the Euro. If the Vatican is "coining" the Euro, it is coining a gold Euro for its own use within the Vatican. The Vatican is not beholden to a central bank. Everyone else is.

The fixation with central banks apart - the Vatican ONLY issues Euro coins - as commemorative issues - did you miss reading that?

Other than that, the currency of the Vatican, like every other member of the Euro zone - is the Euro. I expect that you carefully researched this before posting and know that a euro in one country is legal tender in every other euro zone country. the concept is called 'single currency" - you can even look it up.

So now you have moved from your original assertion that "gold currency" was being passed around the Vatican? Now it is just a partially gold backed Euro?? Whither do you go next?

Receivership? Call it that if I wish? The Federal Reserve, a private run-for-profit corporation says so in so many words

ah, so you dont actually have a quote to back it up - merely just your assertion that this is the case? Hmm. Not surprising.

. Over on your side of the pond, do you not have an equivalent to the Socialist Slavestate Number, er, oops, I mean Social Security Number? With its use you are "human resource asset" of a bankrupt corporate entity in receivership to a central bank.

ah, are you looking for the mark of the Beast?? LOL

The only thing you have in your wallet is "evidence of debt" of said bankrupt and in receivership corporate entity, created via bond issuance to the Bank of England, which, BTW, is a huge shareholder of the Federal Reserve, owning a 50% interest, or at least they did back in the 90's.

Link? Evidence? or just more of the "Vatican gold currency" "secret vatican corporation seeking to take over the world" type stuff?

The Federal Reserve says in its own publications that "the debt of the United States is secured by the future labors of the American People". That would be like a restaurant saying that the meals of its diners are secured by the promise its diners to wash dishes ... meaning that the restaurant is serving people with no money. WE HAVE NO MONEY, ONLY BANK NOTES AND/OR BANK CREDIT UNITS, i.e., evidence of debt.

Meanwhile, wouldn't want to upset you ... take the blue pill, go back to sleep, and wake up believing whatever it is you want.

Pete

roflmao. Thanks for proving my point, Pete. Great stuff. Is there a point where Reptilian Overlords will make an appearance in this discussion?

 

[markthehungarian]

MarktheHungarian,

Thank you for your post! I had a long talk with a friend today (who happens to be a devout Jew) about how tired it gets reading the condemnations of Catholicism on scientology message boards. I'm not even Catholic, but for years I've noticed how poorly informed many who post to ALL the scientology boards seem to be regarding the history and culture of western religions. From the message boards, you'd think Torquemada was busy racking heretics only last Thursday.

I'm not trying to be snide. I simply appreciate your intelligent post that accurately depicts modern Catholicism....

Thank you Fisherman!

After I wrote my post I was a little afraid that I came off "too strong," but luckily for me, the readers of ESMB weren't born yesterday and understood what I was trying to say.

 

[Rmack]

They pulled it in.

Oh, yeah they did!

 

[AnonKat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cdoEqsOWc