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The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

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Wow Carmelo, they have come out wonderfully!

I'll try to compete:


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Taken from my kitchen window on April 2nd, 2010.



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I love the color over the black and white!

I like this photo taken last week:

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Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Yes, I thought I would introduce a little humor but such an article as I wrote is not that far fetched in today's "politically correct world." Thanks for complimenting the writing. On April Fools day, I'll have to top this one.

I was inspired by the 72 virgins article preceeding mine. One thing that is never brought up is that the suicide bomber does not meet the 72 virgins until after he dies and no longer has a body. If he meets the virgins in the spiritual world, what good does it do him because neither he nor the virgins have a body at the time of their meeting so what kind of reward is that, basking in the spiritual aura of 72 spirits that lived lives as virgins?

If the virgins are still alive, then the reward is actually a punishment such as what happened to Tantalus in Dante's Inferno. Here the suicide bomber has 72 beautiful virgins who venerate and adore him and are prepared, presumably, to finally give up their virginity for the beloved martyr who honored Allah by killing innocents in the his glorius name. Alas, the martyr no longer has a body. He has 72 beautiful virgins ready to service him and no body with which to "cash in" and collect his reward. The martyrs are therefore tantalized but can't reap their rewards, just like Tantalus in the Inferno.

In either case, the deceased suicide bomber loses out so what is the difference if he has 72 virgins or 60 virgins, even "cialis" won't help him since he has no body. The whole concept of the 72 virgins reward is crazier than crazy.
Lakey

Besides the (female) virgins, they also get perpetually-young boys.

Quran 76:19 :
And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls.
Quran 52:24
Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded.

They will advance to each other, engaging in mutual enquiry.
 
Pre Easter playtime

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Happy Easter 2010, my dear friends!.

We spent the morning at one of our children's neighborhood block party. They live in a section of town where I did some growing up in the 50s. There was a breakfast and an egg hunt, 15 kids under 5 live on the block, plus a handful of slightly older children, and a couple on the way.

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Then we took the 3 year old twins home with us where they played on the jungle gym and trampoline.

I gave a session to a guy in Washington, D.C. by phone.

I worked on prepping the dirt in the back yard, and laying a half ton of sod.

When they took a nap, lo and behold the Easter Bunny came again in our front yard, and the house and yard were filled with relatives and friends.

The barbeque was fired up, and shrimp and tri tip grilled. Spinach and avocado salad, fresh strawberries picked yesterday, and macaroni and cheese served as side dishes. Tiramisu and New York style cheesecake was desert. Beer and wine flowed.

We ate on the flagstone patio that I laid in October. The little green stuff is beginning to grow between the slabs. The kids jumped on the trampoline, played with Tonka trucks and tractors from my and my children's childhood, hunted Easter eggs, and ran and ran.

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Everyone left around 9 PM. We cleaned the dishes, and my dog took me for a walk. I gave a session on the phone to a guy in Denmark, and now I'm ready to call it a day.

I hope everybody's Easter tomorrow is as fun as ours was today.
 
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Pretty as a picture!

Yea, Heidrun, the first Jonquil is up! :) What a strikingly beautiful photo from your kitchen window. Thanks so much for sharing it! :)
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
Happy Easter

But I would like to bring this thread back to its much more important topic

The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

And I will start with Hana Whitfields speech in Hamburg / Part 2 where she is talking about Hubbard punishing people and children in a very mean way -Hana starts to talk about the chain lockers arround 2,30 and she is fighting with tears:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=ACBA6068C7911142&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&v=SmF9Tpqqw_U


please listen and let me know what you think about it. This is not anybody who heard somesthing from somebody. This woman was there, she was a true believer then and was one of Hubbards captains.

In my opinion Hubbard was a crazy, criminal, violent and abusive person from the very beginning.
This criminal organization has to be stopped as soon as possible.


Love
Markus
 
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But I would like to bring this thread back to its much more important topic

The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

And I will start with Hana Whitfields speech in Hamburg / Part 2 where she is talking about Hubbard punishing people and children in a very mean way -Hana starts to talk about the chain lockers arround 2,30 and she is fighting with tears:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=ACBA6068C7911142&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&v=SmF9Tpqqw_U


please listen and let me know what you think about it. This is not anybody who heard somesthing from somebody. This woman was there, she was a true believer then and was one of Hubbards captains.

In my opinion Hubbard was a crazy, criminal, violent and abusive person from the very beginning.
This criminal organization has to be stopped as soon as possible.


Love
Markus
I watched it last week. Hana was a terrific power auditor. The speech is well presented. I wish her well.

Hubbard was crazy, and most of us bought into that.

A large amount of the tech is wonderful. It is surviving well without the Co$

I'm all in favor of the Co$ imploding , much like the former USSR.

Markus,

I read about your brother dying as a result of the Co$ two years ago, when I started reading ESMB. I'm sorry.

Nevertheless. The Co$ isn't a criminal organization in the same sense as the mafia. The mafia works for all its members to profit. The Co$ works solely for the top rat to profit. The men of the mafia are criminals. most of the people in Scientology are good people , who have been schnookered.

The Co$ has not killed as many people or enslaved as many people as the Mormon or Catholic Churches, for instance.

Your grudge is personal. The Co$ because of the internet will never get to the overwhelming evil that the Christian church became. It will die within a decade.

What about grieving for the American Indian enslaved or killed by the christian Church or the hawaiians, whose land, culture, freedom, and religions were stolen by the Christian missionaries? Where do you stand on those crimes?
 
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Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
Nicely Written Post

I watched it last week. Hana was a terrific power auditor. The speech is well presented. I wish her well.

Hubbard was crazy, and most of us bought into that.

A large amount of the tech is wonderful. It is surviving well without the Co$

I'm all in favor of the Co$ imploding , much like the former USSR.

Markus,

I read about your brother dying as a result of the Co$ two years ago, when I started reading ESMB. I'm sorry.

Nevertheless. The Co$ isn't a criminal organization in the same sense as the mafia. The mafia works for all its members to profit. The Co$ works solely for the top rat to profit. The men of the mafia are criminals. most of the people in Scientology are good people , who have been schnookered.

The Co$ has not killed as many people or enslaved as many people as the Mormon or Catholic Churches, for instance.

Your grudge is personal. The Co$ because of the internet will never get to the overwhelming evil that the Christian church became. It will die within a decade.

What about grieving for the American Indian enslaved or killed by the christian Church or the hawaiians, whose land, culture, freedom, and religions were stolen by the Christian missionaries? Where do you stand on those crimes?

Carmelo, all that you say here is true.

Markus does have a grudge, understandably.

I offered him some help once and it was rejected.

Hopefully, but not likely, he could get a session from you, which would help.

(I should talk. :whistling:)
 
Reality Check!

Markus doesn't need a session so much as he needs justice for his family, and for his dead brother. He's got grounds for a legal case against Corporate Scientology and I hope he presses it on to victory, with the broadest possible publicity attendant.

I want to see the so called "church" of Scientology brought to justice for their crimes, including this one.

There is a point at which physical abuse and medical neglect of physically dependent people (the disabled) amounts to homicide.
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
Talk blue Spirit - talk!

Carmelo, all that you say here is true.

Markus does have a grudge, understandably.

I offered him some help once and it was rejected.

Hopefully, but not likely, he could get a session from you, which would help.

(I should talk. :whistling:)

Yes Blue Spirit talk. I have no problem if you do. I have a different believe than you have. I do not believe in Hubbards Auditing because it did not work for any person I knew. at least I could not see any improvement in anybody i know. But I believe that I managed to get in contact with my brother without your help and I'm quite sure that I'm doing exactly that what my brother and by the way my mother would have asked me to do if they would still be alive. It was very nice of you to offer the help but it is crazy that you think that I did something wrong in rejecting it. I have my believe you have yours.
You have to accept this. I am collecting facts about the church of Scientology since the death of my brother and what I find is alarming.
Are you god or something similar? I don't think so. The church of Scientology harmed my family in a criminal and mean way. I'm not talking only about myself, but about my mother, my sister and Uwe. I'm fighting against it because of this but I think I do it in a quite fair and decent way.

Love
Markus
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
I watched it last week. Hana was a terrific power auditor. The speech is well presented. I wish her well.

Hubbard was crazy, and most of us bought into that.

A large amount of the tech is wonderful. It is surviving well without the Co$

I'm all in favor of the Co$ imploding , much like the former USSR.

Markus,

I read about your brother dying as a result of the Co$ two years ago, when I started reading ESMB. I'm sorry.

Nevertheless. The Co$ isn't a criminal organization in the same sense as the mafia. The mafia works for all its members to profit. The Co$ works solely for the top rat to profit. The men of the mafia are criminals. most of the people in Scientology are good people , who have been schnookered.

The Co$ has not killed as many people or enslaved as many people as the Mormon or Catholic Churches, for instance.

Your grudge is personal. The Co$ because of the internet will never get to the overwhelming evil that the Christian church became. It will die within a decade.

What about grieving for the American Indian enslaved or killed by the christian Church or the hawaiians, whose land, culture, freedom, and religions were stolen by the Christian missionaries? Where do you stand on those crimes?

I stand on your side about those crimes but I think that if Scientology would get more power we would have numbers of victims that could be compared with some of the other totalitarian regimes you mentioned above.
Scientology has destroyed my family so utterly tell me why should I sit here and accept this without doing anything?

Love
Markus
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
Good Idea-Thread going back to 1973 Apollo

But I would like to bring this thread back to its much more important topic

The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

And I will start with Hana Whitfields speech in Hamburg / Part 2 where she is talking about Hubbard punishing people and children in a very mean way -Hana starts to talk about the chain lockers arround 2,30 and she is fighting with tears:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=ACBA6068C7911142&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&v=SmF9Tpqqw_U


please listen and let me know what you think about it. This is not anybody who heard somesthing from somebody. This woman was there, she was a true believer then and was one of Hubbards captains.

In my opinion Hubbard was a crazy, criminal, violent and abusive person from the very beginning.
This criminal organization has to be stopped as soon as possible.


Love
Markus

Its a great idea to bring this thread back to its original topic once in awhile, the Apollo 1973! I think there is some truth in Markus's comment that Hubbard was a crazy, criminal, etc. person from the beginning. However, the statement is too general in my opinion; with some qualifiers, it can come closer to the truth. Hubbard had both good and evil traits within him. He was a very complex personality. It is hard to summarize him in a one size fits all general statement.

The man had brilliance in several fields. He was well read, due to the influence of his Mother and he could achieve things as witnessed by his Eagle Scout ranking just after he turned 13. He was a good story teller and a good writer. His wanting to hammer out a place for himself in the history books is not all bad, nor was his goal to make a lot of money. A lot of people, especially if they are precocious, toy with those ideas in their youth. The determining factor is how one goes about achieving these goals, are innocent people trampled over for someone to achieve his goals?

I see the first cracks in Hubbard's character appearing early in his marriage with Polly. With a Son born in 1933 and a daughter in 1935, he takes off for New York City in 1938 or 1939, when the kids are todlers, lives the life of a single playboy, having numerous sexual liasons and taking no interest and probably not giving much if any financial support to his wife and children, leaving them to live at his parent's house in Bremerton Washington and sink or swim on their own. He did not ponder over his decision to abandon his family. It was a given with him that he would not be tied down by family responsilties. This trait of his was made official C of $ Policy for all Scientologists in his Policy on being PTS to the middle class. I feel that in the area of parenting he did not measure up to middle class standards.

Another trait that was a forewarning of what he would later become was that he never had a boss or was subordinate to anybody. He tells of no part time job while in school, delivering papers or working in a store. The only person from whom he consented to be tutored about something was Commander Thompson who taught him about Freud, if that story is true. In the Navy, he resented being in a command channel, resented his senior officers and basically did not follow orders but did whatever he felt like to the extent that he could get away with it. Another thing is that he borrowed or bought things on credit and did not pay the bills, often just walking away from his debt. The above things are all consistent with his later career.

As to lies, there is no record of lying until after the Dianetics phenomena of the early 1950's. Apparently he felt it necessary to embellish his past so that people in the Scientific community and governments would take him more seriously. Once he started lying, it consumed him and he lost control and becme a chronic liar.

I think that he had not the slightest idea that the Dianetics book would become a popular success and would reach near the top of the best seller lists, nationwide. When this happened, it appears that he tried hard to improve and develop Dianetics and introduce Scientology for two reasons. One, there was a desire and willingness to help mankind and two, he saw it as a way to smash his name into history and also to become wealthy. I feel that he made great efforts to help mankind, initially. When he was spurned by the Medical and Psychiatric professions as well as governments, he started to shift over to going only for power and money. The shift took him perhaps 8 to 10 years to complete and then by the Spring of 1963 he was pretty much the type of person which Markus's statement describes - He had gone to the Dark side of the Force.

In summary, my opiniion is that he was not always as Markus states but ended up in that condition by the Spring of 1963, after a long transitionary period.
Lakey
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
My reactions to the thread without me.

THE THREAD WITHOUT ME - For sure it does not need me to avoid dying out. I can still make a good post every now and then but the thread did beautifully without me. I particularly love the beautiful photos. I PMed Carmelo to give me the tech on posting these photos and he wrote me a terrific cook book summary of how to do that. Pretty soon, I will take a stab at it. I saw that the Alan Walter's Memorial service was covered quite thoroughly and a lot of people weighed in on that subject. I have a great panoramic vista like view from my back yard, and I hope to put up a couple of photos of it before long.

ON DETERMINING WHAT IS A SUCCESSFUL THREAD. I am still thinking about this. I see three ways to judge a thread, two of which are objective and one which is subjective.
#1 - Objective - Does an individual like the thread or not. The individual makes the decision for him/her self and that becomes the truth for themselves.
#2 - Objective - Is the thread getting a lot of hits and are a lot of replies being written. The stats themselves are objective.
#3 - Subjective - Is the quality of the articles and replies high. This is totally subjective because to some a high minded philosopical treatise is high quality while others prefer photos of beautiful places, videos with sound of good music while still others prefer smut and toilet humor.

It is really hard to use #3 in judging a thread because of so much subjectivity. So it just boils down to whether one likes the thread or not and what the stats are.

WHAT CONSTITUES A THREAD DYING?

What constitues a thread dying out is pretty much an objective truth. People just stop reading it and replying to it. The originator may try a couple more angles to stimulate discussion or just let it die out. Sometimes efforts to extend the thread fail and the thread just dies out due to no further participation.

Now, there can be another type of thread die out. The thread is still going strong with a lot of posts and dialogues but a particular person just doesn't care for the posts, the types of topics being taken up or perhaps the people doing most of the posting and the individual makes a decision for themselves that the post is dead. They simply stop reading it and for them it is dead. Now, the thread may be dead for that person but the thread is still going on for others. That is about all there is to say on the matter.

We are about to hit 50,000 views in just an hour or two! I am excited about that. It is a real achievment. Just last Sunday, when I quit posting for a week, we were at about 46,500 so we got 3500 posts this week, averaging 500 a day instead of the 2300 per week which has been our average since December. Stats may remind people of stressful situations during their Org days on staff but here, it is just something to do for fun, just see how high you can get your stat. If it goes down, there are no conditions or penaltties, no heads are put on a pike but if the stats rise, it is an indication that you are doing something right to generate all the interest which you getting.
Lakey
 
I stand on your side about those crimes but I think that if Scientology would get more power we would have numbers of victims that could be compared with some of the other totalitarian regimes you mentioned above.
Scientology has destroyed my family so utterly tell me why should I sit here and accept this without doing anything?

Love
Markus

I'm with you on the Co$ falling.

My view on it, is based more on an Oriental viewpoint is I'd rather let the Co$ use its own determinism against it. Much like Anderson Cooper did in his reporting. They hung themselves. Oftentimes when one directly opposes something, the attacker becomes the opponent. What you resist, you tend to become. I don't want to become the Co$.

I want to live a positive life going after positive journeys. Living one's life in search of destruction of something doesn't feel like it would be a happy day to day experience.

I'd rather spend my time trying to help than trying to destroy. The Co$ will implode with all of our actions, and all of their actions.
 
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Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
I'm with you on the Co$ falling.

My view on it, is based more on an Oriental viewpoint is I'd rather let the Co$ use its own determinism against it. Much like Anderson Cooper did in his reporting. They hung themselves. Oftentimes when one directly opposes something, the attacker becomes the opponent. What you resist, you tend to become. I don't want to become the Co$.

I want to live a positive life going after positive journeys. Living one's life in search of destruction of something doesn't feel like it would be a happy day to day experience.

I'd rather spend my time trying to help than trying to destroy. The Co$ will implode with all of our actions, and all of their actions.

So in real life you would not report a thief or a murderer to the police?
And let me say something to the things you said about other harmful systems which were more violent than the CoS. Telling me this is like telling victims of the Stasi in the GDR that they should stop complaining because Nazi Germany was even worse. What a nonsense.

Love
Markus
 
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To Carmelo

Carmelo, I think I understand where you are coming from with your viewpoint, and you are entitled to it. It does seem as if it would lead to a more peaceful life.

Very wise, peace loving people have taught me that speaking truth to power, correcting injustices by holding those in authority accountable for the results of their actions and willful misdeeds is not an attack, it is the broadest kind of defense for us all as a group (humanity), as well as being the most powerful confront there is. It is the only thing that has kept us as a species living any kind of a life of quality with freedom and peace over time. Otherwise we would all be living as slaves.

You have the benefit of distance from the reality of the negative and predictable results of the established management practice of COS authorized medical neglect of SO members, and the benefit of a happy family living in safety to take "a more Oriental viewpoint", as you put it. You were both smart and lucky to get yourself and your family out of harm's way when you did, and I congratulate you for doing so. Not everyone was so fortunate.

However, with all due respect to you, it does appear here that you are evaluating and possibly judging Marcus for his viewpoint, which he is fully entitled to. Perhaps that is not your intention, but that is what is being conveyed by your words, implied criticism for his desire to take action and oppose the abuses of the COS, which have as he states it, "destroyed his family so utterly".

If they had destroyed your family so utterly, would you still feel as you do, or more as Marcus does? He wants to make sure that this never happens to anyone else, as do many of us. He is willing to act on his beliefs and values in a proactive way, creating positive change by seeking justice rather than passively waiting for entropy to happen to the COS. Many of us find that admirable, I know I do.

You might not feel the same way about taking a such a passive approach to waiting for the COS to implode if it was your child who had experienced what Uwe did, and was dead as a result, and your family that experienced what Marcus' family did, which is just inexcusable by any standard of decency.

Caring compassion and empathy, clearly communicated to someone who is suffering, are the most valuable traits in a counselor of any variety. These help to effect lasting positive change more so than any other traits or abilities.

I say this as one who has respect for you and wishes you well. :)
 
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Wow!

Lakey, it's so good to have you back, you are needed here! I find it amazing that we are going to hit 50,000 views, and on Easter no less! Very well done, all posters, readers and lurkers! :D

Lakey, I will give you a call tonight regarding our spring project. :) And I can't believe I am approaching 2,000 posts !?! That seems like a lot of words and time spent, hopefully wisely...

I must choose a great way to celebrate reaching that milestone, any good ideas, everybody?
 
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