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As my statements to date re: Mary Sue contradict information that you have, I again ask for guidance from you as to where I can view that information.

Can't help you there. My statements were based on views I've heard expressed in private conversations with others over the last ~30 years, people who have known the Hubbards personally. Most of these individuals have never themselves posted on the internet to my knowledge.

There is some historical material to be found in the early life on the "Aboard the Apollo" thread which you may find helpful. You might also seek out posts from some of the old timers who have posted on esmb such as: Alan Walter (dec.), Dart Smohen, Mystic, Challenge, etc..


Mark A. Baker
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: MarySue Hubbard.

I am basing this purely on memory of 40 years ago.

When I first met her at St. Hill, I thought she resembled a movie star, I was a little kid, 6,7,8 years old.

Living along side her on the Apollo,I found her to be cold, calculating and hard nosed. There is nothing she would not have done in the name of Scientology and what her husband wanted done.If she was kind to some, that did not include me. Whether that was because i was a messenger or the daughter of Mike, I do not know.

As I have already said, I do think she loved her children, but to me she had a dislike of all and anyone whom LRH seemed to have in favour. That could have been due to lack of family relationships, because of the nature of what LRH was trying to accomplish.

Again I emphasize, I was a child, no matter what the scientology policies were. The only couple of times I recall exactly going into LRHs bedroom/cabin. There was only a single bunk/bed. I take that to mean they did not sleep together. All though at the time, it did not enter my head that this was not how a married couple lived. This is my observations on what memories I have.

Whilst sitting outside of LRHs office, Marysue would often come outside of her office and listen. If she could hear him talking or tying she would walk back into her office without saying a word. She did this frequently. I don't know what the consequences of this would have been had she interupted him, but if he said he did not want to be disturbed, He meant he did not want to be disturbed. The only person I remember breaking this rule was Otto Roos, and believe me, Lrh bellowed when being interupted when he had said he did not want to be disturbed. He bellowed a lot. Most, myself included did not want to upset him. Punishments could be severe.

The only time, I saw a really human side of MSH was when trying to smash the champagne on the side of the ship, she got embarrassed when after several attempts it failed to smash.

I had very little two way comm with MSH,most times it was just her asking if LRH was available to speak to.

At any public event, they were the happiest couple on earth. I can't say one way or the other if this was true in real terms, as much of what happened aboard the Apollo was someone else's fantasy, not mine.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thank You

Re: MarySue Hubbard.

I am basing this purely on memory of 40 years ago.

When I first met her at St. Hill, I thought she resembled a movie star, I was a little kid, 6,7,8 years old.

Living along side her on the Apollo,I found her to be cold, calculating and hard nosed. There is nothing she would not have done in the name of Scientology and what her husband wanted done.If she was kind to some, that did not include me. Whether that was because i was a messenger or the daughter of Mike, I do not know.

As I have already said, I do think she loved her children, but to me she had a dislike of all and anyone whom LRH seemed to have in favour. That could have been due to lack of family relationships, because of the nature of what LRH was trying to accomplish.

Again I emphasize, I was a child, no matter what the scientology policies were. The only couple of times I recall exactly going into LRHs bedroom/cabin. There was only a single bunk/bed. I take that to mean they did not sleep together. All though at the time, it did not enter my head that this was not how a married couple lived. This is my observations on what memories I have.

Whilst sitting outside of LRHs office, Marysue would often come outside of her office and listen. If she could hear him talking or tying she would walk back into her office without saying a word. She did this frequently. I don't know what the consequences of this would have been had she interupted him, but if he said he did not want to be disturbed, He meant he did not want to be disturbed. The only person I remember breaking this rule was Otto Roos, and believe me, Lrh bellowed when being interupted when he had said he did not want to be disturbed. He bellowed a lot. Most, myself included did not want to upset him. Punishments could be severe.

The only time, I saw a really human side of MSH was when trying to smash the champagne on the side of the ship, she got embarrassed when after several attempts it failed to smash.

I had very little two way comm with MSH,most times it was just her asking if LRH was available to speak to.

At any public event, they were the happiest couple on earth. I can't say one way or the other if this was true in real terms, as much of what happened aboard the Apollo was someone else's fantasy, not mine.

Thank you for your input re: Mary Sue. El Ron and Mary Sue did not share a bed or bedroom and El Ron bellowed and bellowed a lot!!

Wow...what a horrid place for a child to be...it was all tough enough as an adult.

Peace Sharone,:)

Face:)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thank You

Can't help you there. My statements were based on views I've heard expressed in private conversations with others over the last ~30 years, people who have known the Hubbards personally. Most of these individuals have never themselves posted on the internet to my knowledge.

There is some historical material to be found in the early life on the "Aboard the Apollo" thread which you may find helpful. You might also seek out posts from some of the old timers who have posted on esmb such as: Alan Walter (dec.), Dart Smohen, Mystic, Challenge, etc..


Mark A. Baker

Thanks...I'm kinda in the same boat re: confidences of sources, outside of me, and I'm sittin' here behind my moniker.:coolwink:

Face:)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yeah, maybe so about them assholes!

Hey, Were I an OSAbot I'd know who you are. Never heard anyone
else say they met Hubbard senior. etc.

I mean fuck the assholes! They no longer have power.

Well, I'm sure those OSA mofo's are scratchin' there heads, poundin' their puds or whatever else they do for fun...when HRH came to the ship to visit El Ron a whole lot of folks got to know him...he was that kinda guy. Maybe someday I'll just let it all "hang out"...until then I'll just keep skatin' on the ice on this thread.

Cheers Terril.:thumbsup:

Face:)
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
HRH - A lot of you got to know him?

Well, I'm sure those OSA mofo's are scratchin' there heads, poundin' their puds or whatever else they do for fun...when HRH came to the ship to visit El Ron a whole lot of folks got to know him...he was that kinda guy. Maybe someday I'll just let it all "hang out"...until then I'll just keep skatin' on the ice on this thread.

Cheers Terril.:thumbsup:

Face:)

Face, by HRH, I take it you are referring to Harry Ross Hubbard. is this correct? I only read about his coming to the ship to visit LRH in Bent Corydon's book. That book just tells about HRH and El Ron sitting on deck chairs and talking for an unspecified length of time. I had no idea that any of the crew got to know HRH. Can you tell us a little more about this. I understand the HRH died later that year at age 89. Were you able to draw any kind of conclusions about what kind of guy HRH was?
 
San Francisco Bay to Breakers last Sunday

Yesterday I did my 25th annual Bay to Breakers in the City by the Bay. I started running it in 1985. In 1986 my daughter joined me (at age 6). We've been doing it with family and friends ever since.

This was the 99th year of the race. It started shortly after the earthquake of 1906. The race is 7.5 miles or 12 K. People come from all over the nation and the world to run it every year. Usually we park ourselves in the Sir Francis Drake Hotel on Union Square right above the cable car line. The windows open and you can fall asleep listening to the cable car bells clanging.

The "Bay to Breakers" is an across the city roadrace which is a spin-off of a San Francisco, turn of the 20th Century, New Year's Day race which would start in the east side of the Golden Gate Park and would terminate with the participants in the Pacific surf.

The current race (and longer course) was later established 6 years after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake, as a morale booster and to promote the then planned upcoming 1915 Panama-Pacific International Exposition in San Francisco (a predecessor to World's Fairs).

Initially called the Cross City Race, the original 147 runners in 1912 subsequently reached an approximate 110,000 runners in 1986. 

This is after the starting line

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Weather has been relatively dry most years except for 2002 when 70,000 participated in what turned into heavy rains after the start (believed to be the first heavy rain for the event since 1939). At the finish line, I ended up not taking the bus back to the starting line because the lines were so long. It was pouring buckets. Everyone was getting drenched, and trying to leave all at once. I walked back half way to my car before I found a bus that I could catch.

The race course follows a path across the City of San Francisco from the foot of the Bay Bridge to the Ocean Beach's shoreline's breakers.  Hence the name, Bay to Breakers, first coined in 1964.

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There are individual elite male and female runners. These guys finish the race before most of the pack even crosses the start line.

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There are centipedes. This is a group of 13 runners attached in some way.

This is the Linked In centipede

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there are floats.

This is a hot tub float

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The President with his Secret Service entourage

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There are costumed runners.

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There are naked runners.

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There are walkers.

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There are by-standers watching the show


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this bystander (with his wife, a super model) was known for winning Super Bowls


The B2B attracts people from every age group and demographic imaginable.

Even canines enjoy the race. My canine friend enjoys the end of the race. There at Footstock, where all the food is, he always seems to run into friends who are willing to share their chicken and hamburgers. He gets lots of props from people who appreciate his fitness and spirit. This was his fifth year running the race.

Can you spot afaceinthecrowd?
 
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afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Lakey...I posted about HRH weeks ago

I dunno, Ted….I never knew her. I did know the "real" Commodore, HRH—Harry Ross Hubbard—and it twernt Ole Harry’s fault…he was a thoroughly decent, unassuming and cheerful feller. :yes:

Face

This is a post I made a while back responding to a post by Ted re: El Ron not being whacked enough when he was a kid.

Face
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
The Real Commodore

Face, by HRH, I take it you are referring to Harry Ross Hubbard. is this correct? I only read about his coming to the ship to visit LRH in Bent Corydon's book. That book just tells about HRH and El Ron sitting on deck chairs and talking for an unspecified length of time. I had no idea that any of the crew got to know HRH. Can you tell us a little more about this. I understand the HRH died later that year at age 89. Were you able to draw any kind of conclusions about what kind of guy HRH was?

Harry spent time with El Ron, on shore excursions—mostly without El Ron—and chattin’ up folks around the ship. He was affable, cheerful, energetic for his age and had a very funny wry sense of humor. All around, he seemed a very pleasant and “present” man…he is also where El Ron got his distinctive voice.

Face:)
 
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Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
This thread has been a great read for the most part (may 'ave missed a page r' two), thanks folks :)

Speaking of Failwinds, this thread from wwp, not sure if its been posted here yet >
http://forums.whyweprotest.net/123-leaks-legal/freewinds-otviii-courseroom-video-leak-66314/8/



Posted by an Anon> re: FREEWINDS OTVIII COURSEROOM VIDEO LEAK

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"IF THE COPYING OR ISSUE OR EXPOSURE OR ILLEGAL PROCUREMENT OF ANY ADVANCED COURSE MATERIAL OR DATA IS TRACED TO ANY STUDENT OR PERSON THEY ARE INSTANTLY DECLARED SUPPRESSIVE AND WILL NOT BE AMNESTIED.

"MISUSING AO MATERIALS, ANY SUPPRESSIVE GROUP COULD AGAIN WIPE OUT CIVILIZATION THEREFORE IT IS NO LIGHT CRIME"

L. Ron Hubbard
Founder

Translation
"This course material only makes sense if you are properly indoctrinated. To the general public, this shit is so stupid it will be incredibly embarassing, and again make Scientologists look like dupes, therefore publicizing it is no light crime. Also, Boo!"

:roflmao:
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Nice to have you here!

This thread has been a great read for the most part (may 'ave missed a page r' two), thanks folks :)

Speaking of Failwinds, this thread from wwp, not sure if its been posted here yet >
http://forums.whyweprotest.net/123-leaks-legal/freewinds-otviii-courseroom-video-leak-66314/8/





:roflmao:

Nice to have you reading this thread. We will have to get Sweetness and Light to assign you a proper nickname because I can't figure out any short way to abbreviate your name.

The only way misuse of that material would wipe out a civilization would be if members of the public read it and fell to the floor and went into uncontrollable laughter for such a long period that they weakened their hearts or caused themselves to have hernias.

I read a cute joke in Mad Magazine in prehistoric times when I was a teen ager. There was a headline - "Lineman shocked by open Wire!" The story which followed said that Matt Smith, lineman for the Green Bay Packers football team was shocked when he arrive home only to find a Western Union Telegram, lying open on his dining room table, stating that he had been fired from the team. (Aparently, Matt Jr. had opened the wire by mistake, thinking it was for him.)

We could do a similar joke for a non authorized person reading OT Materials, i.e. Electrifying Wire causes Line Charge and leads to shock. Matt Smith opened a wire containing Scientology OT Materials. Though electrying the news contained in this wire was found extremely humorous by Smith and he began line charging, eventually falling to the floor in uncontrollible laughter and glee which eventually lead to shock. If enough people read the materials in this manner, this could wipe out a civilization.
Lakey
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Sidebar...Lakey's "WHY"

There are some things from Lakey’s first post that started this thread that I’d like to comment about.

The Data Series has got some good stuff in it and it also has a lot of crap in it.

Lakey knew the correct “Why” for CCLA instinctively for a number of reasons that the Flag Bureau “Apparatchik” could not see or fathom because her “reasoning” was filtered through the severe flaws in the Data Series.

Gawd, I could go on for pages and pages about this but I’ll just hit some “bullet points” that may be helpful to Lakey.

People have been finding brilliant and right “Whys” since time immemorial. Most of the Staff of any Org, if interviewed properly (and without a Meter), knew the “Why” and “sub-whys” for their Orgs and would tell you.

Many right “Whys” were not allowed by the Data Series as the DS required that any “Whys” had to conform to HCOPL’s and HCOB’s. Inherent within the HCOPL’s is a system that oppresses the individual staff member and ignores the fact that they are exhausted, hungry, unduly stressed, exploited, know they are “expendable” and were subject to rules that they were not privy to and were subjects of others to which they had no access, interaction nor recourse. They had to “play by the rules” whether or not their “Superiors” played by the same rules. Within the HCOB’s was supposedly “the answer” to all things of the Universe but, well, “We err because we build a world with broken straws”, so the PTS/SP “Tech”, Robotism, Evil Purps, O/W’s, etc., etc. takes IMMEDIATE precedence as, “Were running out of time, man! This whole thing could be gone tomorrow—and it may just be your fault because you were inadequate, you failed to get their ‘Ethics In’.”

Most of the Senior Management of Scn on the Apollo had no clue what it was like to work in and run a CL IV Org or Mission and actually talk to and deliver service to the Public…and that includes El Ron. They “knew all about it” but they didn’t know how to and what it was actually like to do it. A very few of them had worked for a little while in an org and then “moved up” and joined the SO but they were just “passing through on the way to the ‘Top’” and most were actually quite clueless how to relate to and understand the majority of the personnel they were “Managing”.

In my view there were, back in the “good old days”, 5 different “Scientology's” and the higher the number the less it was “by the book” and made any sense:

1. Public
2. Staff
3. GO
4. SO
5. Flag

"Why" is that? The higher the number the “closer” you were to “Source”.

Face:)
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
Boy does this stuff from Face "indicate".

There are some things from Lakey’s first post that started this thread that I’d like to comment about.

The Data Series has got some good stuff in it and it also has a lot of crap in it.

Lakey knew the correct “Why” for CCLA instinctively for a number of reasons that the Flag Bureau “Apparatchik” could not see or fathom because her “reasoning” was filtered through the severe flaws in the Data Series.

Gawd, I could go on for pages and pages about this but I’ll just hit some “bullet points” that may be helpful to Lakey.

People have been finding brilliant and right “Whys” since time immemorial. Most of the Staff of any Org, if interviewed properly (and without a Meter), knew the “Why” and “sub-whys” for their Orgs and would tell you.

Two good "Whys" from the auto industry in America and Germany.
1. Henry Ford wanted to put America on wheels in the decade between 1920 and 1920. Auto's were too expensive for the common man to afford, how did Henry solve the problem. He devoloped a good vehicle which was very inexpensive, the Model T, and then he double wages in his plants from $2.50 per day to the unheard of salary of $5.00 per day. Most of the top and most skilled workers tried to sign on with Ford. Now, he had a product to sell and a large market to sell to, the employees in his factories. All the other companies had to match the wages at Ford so an even bigger pool of buyers was created. Within a short time Ford was Number 1 in his industry and rich and famous beyond belief.

2. Heinz Nordhoff, Germany 1949, the new West German government takes over the Volkswagen plant which the British Government ran since 1945. The plant was on the verge of closing. Nordhoff saw the car, the original Beetle, it was a little strange looking but was cute and it had some very advanced technical features and was fun to drive. Nordhoff decided to emphasize quality and technical refinements and superb craftsmanship. He approached the new West German government. He wanted their backing in honoring the VW savings accounts many Germans contributed to during the war. The money no longer existed, the Russians took any actual monies from the banks but Nordhoff got the German government to make good on those old VW savings accounts. He thus created his own market and then with his emphasis on quality and technical perfection and his shunning of styling and the annual model changes, VW took off within one year and the rest is history.

How did Ford and Nordhoff know the correct "Why's" since the Data Series had not been written yet?


Many right “Whys” were not allowed by the Data Series as the DS required that any “Whys” had to conform to HCOPL’s and HCOB’s. Inherent within the HCOPL’s is a system that oppresses the individual staff member and ignores the fact that they are exhausted, hungry, unduly stressed, exploited, know they are “expendable” and were subject to rules that they were not privy to and were subjects of others to which they had no access, interaction nor recourse. They had to “play by the rules” whether or not their “Superiors” played by the same rules. Within the HCOB’s was supposedly “the answer” to all things of the Universe but, well, “We err because we build a world with broken straws”, so the PTS/SP “Tech”, Robotism, Evil Purps, O/W’s, etc., etc. takes IMMEDIATE precedence as, “Were running out of time, man! This whole thing could be gone tomorrow—and it may just be your fault because you were inadequate, you failed to get their ‘Ethics In’.”

Most of the Senior Management of Scn on the Apollo had no clue what it was like to work in and run a CL IV Org and actually talk to and deliver service to the Public…and that includes El Ron. They “knew all about it” but they didn’t know how to and what it was actually like to do it. A very few of them had worked for a little while in an org and then “moved up” and joined the SO but they were just “passing through on the way to the ‘Top’” and most were actually quite clueless how to relate to and understand the majority of the personnel they were “Managing”.

In my view there were, back in the “good old days”, 5different “Scientologies” and the higher the number the less it was “by the book” and made any sense:

1. Public
2. Staff
3. GO
4. SO
5. Flag

"Why" is that? The higher the number the “closer” you were to “Source”.

Face:)

One unique thing about CCLA in its old days, maybe still true today, the public and the staff did an awful lot of interacting. Since we were dealing with Celebrities this increased our interaction with our public and this was helped by the nightly shows which were put on 7 days a week for the whole time I was there. The shows were very good, Vegas lounge show quality at the least. Every night there were between 100 to 150 people who came in and watched the shows. They had a snack bar where people could actually hang out. I was public for one full year and yet knew almost all the staff. As a staff member, I knew most of the public. The bigger celebrities did not socialize with staff such as me but most of them knew who most of the staff were. On the Apollo, the public were treated as a pariah, just referred to as WOGS and considered idiots. The staff on the Apollo were totally isolated from their publics and they also looked down on staff from the lower Orgs as unhatted, unseasoned rookies.

You notice in sports, the huge stars such as Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant will act cordial towards their fans and may realize that the fans contribute towards their power. On the Apollo and in the Sea Org in general, the non Sea Org public are looked down upon because they are not as committed to the cause as the Apollo staff are. I thought the Apollo staff would be an elite brotherhood and perhaps it was a couple of years earlier but when I got there it was just the opposite. That was absolutely the worst managed operation of any type which I have ever been involved with. Nothing ever went smoothly, everything was done in a cope mode. Everybody was tense and under pressure. Staff members were suspicious of other staff and often resented them. Most of the rank and file had all their dynamics out, except the third dynamic and really that was out too because we were all just being used as slaves. This is the way I saw it as a newbie thrown into the mix there as a totally green person. I do not deny there were some very good individuals there who were fine people and that years earlier there may well have been a spirit of brotherhood there but for me, just being an able guy who wanted to help out and carry my own weight, I think it was the worst experience on my entire time track.

People would spend 2 1/2 to 5 hours a day studying the Green on White management volumes as if the answeres to the universe were contained in those volumes of "3rd Dynamic Tech" I believed this to be true myself. In actuality it was a poor management system, very difficult to implement and if followed to the letter, it was not the ne plus ultra of systems which it claimed to be. It was a below average system of how to build and run an organization. Now nearly 40 years later, the condition of the C of S has proven in the field that the Hubbard Management System is a poor system of management, a below average system of management. Any system which you learn in a university or business school or even in the military is without a doubt superior to Hubbard's Green on White. Green on White leads to confusion, tension, stress, yelling and screaming, low havingness, no room for new ideas or original thinking, no way to stay current with the times and take advantage of modern technical advancements. It does not produce decent salaries and working conditions for the staff, it does not exchange fairly with the public, one could go on and on about how misguided and poor it is but I think you get the idea. IT JUST PLAIN STINKS!
Lakey
 
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afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Following in Carmelo's wisened footsteps, and having just learned how easy it is to insert songs into one's posts, I put up the following little ditty for some of the regulars on this thread who appreciate all the fine material appearing here lately:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGsSAysEEug&feature=related

Now that the song is up, I want to mention a couple of "gutsy" people who were our forebearers. First and foremost is Stacy Brooks Young. The courage she showed in being involved in a leadership role in the Lisa Mc Pherson Trust was exemplary. Her video interviews, such as with the Barnes and Woodcraft families are the stuff legends are made of. What a trooper she is!!! Also, her now deceased huband Robert Vaughan Young was a brilliant journalist and for a long time was a contributor to C of S, with his many talents. When he finally left the organization, he was courageous in his opposition to C of S and wrote several early, circa late 90's write ups about goings on in the church which are now classics. The man was bright and had a flair for writing. Has anyone got any other gutsy critics they would care to mention? Robert Dam has a great website on C of S but he seems to have quit creating it about 2 years ago and now some of the information has gotten stale dated. Our recent friend Michel, from Italy is not an old timer but he was of the same ilk as RVY and Stacy as far as I'm concerned.
Also, I liked the non Scientologist, Omar Garrison. He was a gutsy and honest investigative reporter who had a penchant to uncover and publish truths.
Lakey

Aint we a pair?!

Face:eyeroll:
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
Simple Truth

Most of the Senior Management of Scn on the Apollo had no clue what it was like to work in and run a CL IV Org and actually talk to and deliver service to the Public…and that includes El Ron. They “knew all about it” but they didn’t know how to and what it was actually like to do it. A very few of them had worked for a little while in an org and then “moved up” and joined the SO but they were just “passing through on the way to the ‘Top’” and most were actually quite clueless how to relate to and understand the majority of the personnel they were “Managing”.

In my view there were, back in the “good old days”, 5 different “Scientology's” and the higher the number the less it was “by the book” and made any sense:

1. Public
2. Staff
3. GO
4. SO
5. Flag

"Why" is that? The higher the number the “closer” you were to “Source”.

Face:)

That makes Simple Common Sense.

The Truth is always a simple thing.


From what I hear, at least the Sex was good on the Apollo.
 
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