KnightVision
Gold Meritorious Patron
Character--that is what counts.
The Anabaptist Jacques
Excellent! Good! Show us the money!! Bring it on....
By the way, were you involved with Scn?
Character--that is what counts.
The Anabaptist Jacques
That is fascinating. Thanks!This is an interesting discussion.
The following excerpt is from one of my favorite sources about analysis (Dick Heuer, The Psychology of Analysis available online at https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...sychology-of-intelligence-analysis/art14.html).
The gist is that we tend to understand that many of our own actions are dependent on the circumstances in which we find ourselves and the external pressures acting on us. But we tend to ascribe the source of others' actions and decisions as primarily due to their internal causes of behavior like personality, character, morals, ethical standards, etc.
Hi WO,
the trouble is that this is merely wishful thinking.
What in Marty or Mike's history would suggest that they have EVER done anything honorable as regards scientology or scientologists? I am puzzled why you would assume that they are doing good things?
People will be given an alternative way to exist, rather than as a gushing sycophant to those who are manipulating and lying to them for their own ends.
snip
By the way, were you involved with Scn?
Dude...I haven't got a clue, what's up?
Some time ago you were raging about Rinder's despicable acts vs you and your father. I thought it sounded righteous and quite sane on your part to feel that way.
Then, not long ago you were on some other campaign that sounded like the Golden Age of Alonzo Love and I was a bit surprised that you seemed to forget about those earlier Rinder episodes. But....I made some comment about Rathbun and you "went off" and threw down some post asking me "WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO FUCKING NASTY?" I had to laugh and shake my head at that one, wondering if you were joking--considering your own history of comments on people like Rinder.
Now, today you are back to agreeing with me that Rathbun is manipulating and lying for his own ends?
Dude, can you pick a side and stick with it?
Dude...I haven't got a clue, what's up?
Some time ago you were raging about Rinder's despicable acts vs you and your father. I thought it sounded righteous and quite sane on your part to feel that way.
Then, not long ago you were on some other campaign that sounded like the Golden Age of Alonzo Love and I was a bit surprised that you seemed to forget about those earlier Rinder episodes. But....I made some comment about Rathbun and you "went off" and threw down some post asking me "WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO FUCKING NASTY?" I had to laugh and shake my head at that one, wondering if you were joking--considering your own history of comments on people like Rinder.
Now, today you are back to agreeing with me that Rathbun is manipulating and lying for his own ends?
Dude, can you pick a side and stick with it?
My guess is that Alonzo did what he always does, he took a sincere look at both sides before he came to a final judgment.
And even then he keeps re-examining his positions.
The guy is the real deal.
That particular nasty comment I made had to do with your treatment of Geir Isene.
Geir is not Marty or Mike.
Geir is very different.
That's probably what I'm doing.
Oh yeah, it was Geir.
Sometimes I get Ron's messengers confused.
It's a willful ignorance and a culpable ignorance and a *convenient* ignorance that allows him to maintain an unwarranted positive opinion of Scientology and, to that extent, it's an ignorance common to many/most of the poor gushers in Martyland.
I *do* thin Geir is 'different'. The difference is that Geir is *ignorant* of much of the worst of Scientology. It's a willful ignorance and a culpable ignorance and a *convenient* ignorance that allows him to maintain an unwarranted positive opinion of Scientology and, to that extent, it's an ignorance common to many/most of the poor gushers in Martyland.
A reasonable or rational or honest person would *examine* the facts of an organization or philosophy he supports, but, Geir *knows* that to do so would undercut his support, so, he avoids it.
Marty and Mike already know the facts. They're lying outright as a political means. In their case it's *not* about the 'Scientology Conditioning' in *knowing* about the evil that Scientology both promotes and commits. It's not about them 'getting out of the Cult mindset' or recovering.
Because, they *know* about the bad, because they did it. They were right there. Where the Cult mindset comes in for them, and, it does, and they are indeed brainwashed dupes, but, their conditioning is that, even knowing the evil from personal experience, they can *justify* it to themselves.
Just like they can justify lying now; because it's for a 'good cause'.
Zinj
Ah yes, the gushers in Martyland, pouring out their high-pressure crude into the open Gulf. The valiant ESMBers are pouring on the dispersant Cultexit so the effluent is watered down some, but it is still polluting the environment.
Paul
I *do* thin Geir is 'different'. The difference is that Geir is *ignorant* of much of the worst of Scientology. It's a willful ignorance and a culpable ignorance and a *convenient* ignorance that allows him to maintain an unwarranted positive opinion of Scientology and, to that extent, it's an ignorance common to many/most of the poor gushers in Martyland.
A reasonable or rational or honest person would *examine* the facts of an organization or philosophy he supports, but, Geir *knows* that to do so would undercut his support, so, he avoids it.
Marty and Mike already know the facts. They're lying outright as a political means. In their case it's *not* about the 'Scientology Conditioning' in *knowing* about the evil that Scientology both promotes and commits. It's not about them 'getting out of the Cult mindset' or recovering.
Because, they *know* about the bad, because they did it. They were right there. Where the Cult mindset comes in for them, and, it does, and they are indeed brainwashed dupes, but, their conditioning is that, even knowing the evil from personal experience, they can *justify* it to themselves.
Just like they can justify lying now; because it's for a 'good cause'.
Zinj
Oh yeah, it was Geir.
Sometimes I get Ron's messengers confused.
EDIT ADDED:
thought about it some more and wondered this-------
You are saying Geir is not Marty or Mike. Agreed. I never thought he was.
Today you said:
People will be given an alternative way to exist, rather than as a gushing sycophant to those who are manipulating and lying to them for their own ends.
I share that opinon.
But, as much of a nice dude as Geir is, what do you think about him PROMOTING people like Hubbard or Rathbun who "....are manipulating and lying to (people) for their own ends" ?
Just cuz someone is a "nice dude" I still think promoting people into the clutches of con men & criminals sucks.
Nice assessment.
The whole thing is like a historical epic.
Geir is like an Oedipus character in a Greek Tragedy.
And Rathbun is a modern Alcibiades.
Geir's a 'tragic figure' in that his heart appears to be in the right place, but, his clutch slips and he can't raise the integrity to honestly examine the workings of his 'chosen religion'.
That may change someday.
Zinj