SweetnessandLight
Crusader
Good point Leon. I do understand the difference. 
The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But
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Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Actually, I don't think there are any. Offhand I can't think of any.
The "hardliners" avoid the place, evidently they can't take the heat. The "there is good to be found in scientology" viewpoint tends to be represented by "loosy goosy" liberal freezoners and other such beings who aren't afraid to talk to people with different perspectives. If you want "hardliners" try Marty's place or the IFA.
Good distinction, Leon. Participation in the Co$ certainly does not constitute a sufficient basis for the assumption of any knowledge or experience as an actual scientologist. All the more so if the time spent was in the SO within the last 20 years.
Mark A. Baker
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
the above is true. all that being said, this thread is a good place for you.
You just posted a real post. You talked about the death of your wife and coping with that. That was a very real communication. Most of us here post very real communications. We post about an idea that interests us or a particular passion that we have or a movie we liked.
Many of us have books. We haven't posted them even in serial form.
Please stay. Think of this as the volleyball / parking lot area of ASHO on W. Temple. This is a place to bullshit, talk tech, find a good spot to eat, maybe even hit on a cute girl. It isn't a place to give a seminar. We all want to talk and listen.
This little thread is very similar to the 4th of July party. Everyone participates, hangs with friends, meets new people, enjoys the music, and so on. Take a load off your feet. Push back and enjoy the camaraderie. Once you're comfortable with us, you'll know what to say. I think that you can say anything. This thread, the Apollo thread is more forgiving and tolerant of pro Scientology comm, but it is just like ASHO was. There are others' opinions that will chime in.
If love really is the most important thing to you, then this thread is the place for you to hang out at.
Before I ever heard of Scientology, I realized love was the most important thing to me. I've sent 45 years broadening my understanding of that simple powerful thought.
Love isn't the raison d'être for everyone. Some value knowledge first. Others - order. There is a different raison d'être for each and every person. Together, we all harmonize pretty well.
I attempt to make my posts entertaining. I also try to push tidbits of knowledge and or music or entertainment appreciation.
There is a shit load more to life than Scientology tech. Tell us something that you are passionate about. One thing, not a chapter of your book. Let your conversational skills come to the fore.
Live communication changes conditions better than anything.
lkwdblds
Crusader
Very nice Carmelo! This thread is where Johnny belongs,...for now!
Johnny just PMed me on a completely separate matter and I responded to his post to possibly cease posting on ESMB. Its amazing how Carmelo and I are in sync these days. I recommended Johnny posting here exclusively for a bit and having some strategy meetings between he, Corky and I before he goes back on the main ESMB Board. We could have Skype or a phone conference call to include Carmelo into the mix of ideas.
I think he needs to eventually return to the main part of the board for only one major reason and that is soley not to yield space to the bashers and detractors. Once that statement is made, then he can continue to post just here, 'His Home" on ESMB or he can continue on both. That will probably by the subject for another conference to be held in the near future.
Lakey
Johnny just PMed me on a completely separate matter and I responded to his post to possibly cease posting on ESMB. Its amazing how Carmelo and I are in sync these days. I recommended Johnny posting here exclusively for a bit and having some strategy meetings between he, Corky and I before he goes back on the main ESMB Board. We could have Skype or a phone conference call to include Carmelo into the mix of ideas.
I think he needs to eventually return to the main part of the board for only one major reason and that is soley not to yield space to the bashers and detractors. Once that statement is made, then he can continue to post just here, 'His Home" on ESMB or he can continue on both. That will probably by the subject for another conference to be held in the near future.
Lakey
thetanic
Gold Meritorious Patron
Well, I'm an ex-CofSist who's an indie Scn of some stripe, but I get your point.
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
I would disagree.
On your "Thumbnail Sketch of LRH" thread, I just got bashed by AnonKat and AnonKat is a friend.
There is nothing wrong with being bashed. If every post one ever makes is going to be applauded, how boring would that be. Life is a game. Without an occasional bash, it just isn't very interesting.
A bash every now and again is good for the soul.
ESMB is not brain surgery. It is connecting with your fellows. It is not trying to sell ideas counter to the prevailing posters UNLESS a fight is what you are seeking. This is simple ARC U stuff. Find out what is needed and wanted before you open your mouth.
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
The Great Zorg
Gold Meritorious Patron
Ops and trolls
I agree with: a) All Of The Above.
You have both omitted two more "types":
There are people here who are still programmed and completely indoctrinated who work for the group fighting to keep to cofs alive; currently miscavige & Co. Almost all of them come and go, within the cofs that is.:confused2:
There are people here that have nothing better to do than start flame wars and derail threads. I believe they are called trolls. They come and go. :confused2:
I also believe that there is a distinction between a "scientologist" and a "church of scientologist".
I agree with: a) All Of The Above.
You have both omitted two more "types":
There are people here who are still programmed and completely indoctrinated who work for the group fighting to keep to cofs alive; currently miscavige & Co. Almost all of them come and go, within the cofs that is.:confused2:
There are people here that have nothing better to do than start flame wars and derail threads. I believe they are called trolls. They come and go. :confused2:
I also believe that there is a distinction between a "scientologist" and a "church of scientologist".
Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
I haven't noticed anyone at all getting particularly upset over your posting here other than, I imagine, you. You seem to be a nice guy. It's not like you are picking on people here, or invalidating them personally. You haven't upset me, although you might have offended my sense of reality a few times.It further appears that I have really enturbulated a number of people, and I am really pissed off with myself for my stupidity and naivete.
I seem to have instigated a “War of Viewpoints” and “An Ego War“, and I do not want to submit my story if it is going to cause people to war with each other.
I have never done well when I do something that someone uses to upset themselves or others. I still have case in that area, I am not comfortable creating any kind of negative effect.
ESMB houses a lot of people with different viewpoints, and they express them in different ways. Generally, people here are fairly tolerant of contrary views being expressed, although they don't have to accept them and will usually say why! Are you familiar with online message boards generally, especially unmoderated ones? I get the idea you are comparing ESMB to, say, conversation with friends who know you well or with strangers being socially polite. Try a different datum of comparable magnitude, like the newsgroup alt.religion.scientology, or the true believers at Marty Rathbun's blog or the funsters at WhyWeProtest's thunderdome (you're lucky as I don't have a Dome link handy) and you'll get a different viewpoint.
I would like to read them. Put them online somewhere, maybe on your website. If you don't want them there, there are virtually unlimited other options. Then put a link to them in your signature file. Or just have a "Johnny Raff Chronicles" thread with the link to them all at the beginning, and people can discuss them and quote snippets as they wish.
I won't talk for anyone else here, just myself. I want(ed) to know how much of what you wrote about doing came about on regular communication channels (spoken words, written words, body gestures between people) and how much was on "magical" channels. I have never asked you to prove the magical stuff, merely to indicate which is regular-world and which is magical-world.
It makes a difference! Maybe not to you, but it does to me. If someone says they worked with Ron and he said and did blah blah, I consider it different if they actually were with him in the flesh *in this lifetime*, or if it is something they are convinced happened in another way.
Anyway, do what you will.
Paul
Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
I just noticed that I am responding to a double post from John. There are already many responses to the same post of his ON THE OTHER THREAD. This is dev-t, John. If you insist on double posting stuff, which I think is a really bad idea, at least say that it is a double post.
Paul
Paul
Veda
Sponsor
Do you really believe that?
lkwdblds
Crusader
Some pretty good advice to Johnny & "PICTUREOLOGY"
That was some pretty good advice you gave to TMT Paul! I just got a new Email from Int Management. It talks about "Pictureology" and supposedly according to what LRH said in a 1963 Bulletin (whcih I've never seen), Pictureology was the most advanced therapy ever created in the entire Universe until Scientology came along. Clive Rabey is coming to L.A. in late August to give a lecture to OT 7's and OT 8's about pictureology.
Paul, are you familiar with pictureology? Would it be a copyright infringement for me to do a paste copy and show that email on this board.
I Googled it and came up with the following link:
[PDF] REPORT
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
Scientology was Pictureology wherein, at a signal from the therapist, the thetan crunched up the engram. This is currently in use (and has been for many ...
www.antisectes.net/official-reports-the-anderson-report-state-of-victoria-australia.pdf - Similar
Last but more important, how can people possibly accept that LRH knew everything which has ever happened in the entire Physcial Universe ever siince the first civilization took root quardrillions of years ago?
Last I heard, he had trouble running a second rate ship in the Mediterranean and seeing to it that courses which people were posted to had Hat Packs as per his own policy and he was misinformed and believed some obscure Director of Disbursements had embezzled funds from CCLA treasury just a few months earlier when the guy was one of the most unscrupulously honest peoople who ever served on staff at CCLA.. If he can be so wrong about common every day happenings right under his nose in his own jurisdiction, how can he possibly know what has been going on in an entire Universe going back 4 quadrillion years or so. Pardon me but I am just asking?
Lakey
That was some pretty good advice you gave to TMT Paul! I just got a new Email from Int Management. It talks about "Pictureology" and supposedly according to what LRH said in a 1963 Bulletin (whcih I've never seen), Pictureology was the most advanced therapy ever created in the entire Universe until Scientology came along. Clive Rabey is coming to L.A. in late August to give a lecture to OT 7's and OT 8's about pictureology.
Paul, are you familiar with pictureology? Would it be a copyright infringement for me to do a paste copy and show that email on this board.
I Googled it and came up with the following link:
[PDF] REPORT
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
Scientology was Pictureology wherein, at a signal from the therapist, the thetan crunched up the engram. This is currently in use (and has been for many ...
www.antisectes.net/official-reports-the-anderson-report-state-of-victoria-australia.pdf - Similar
Last but more important, how can people possibly accept that LRH knew everything which has ever happened in the entire Physcial Universe ever siince the first civilization took root quardrillions of years ago?
Last I heard, he had trouble running a second rate ship in the Mediterranean and seeing to it that courses which people were posted to had Hat Packs as per his own policy and he was misinformed and believed some obscure Director of Disbursements had embezzled funds from CCLA treasury just a few months earlier when the guy was one of the most unscrupulously honest peoople who ever served on staff at CCLA.. If he can be so wrong about common every day happenings right under his nose in his own jurisdiction, how can he possibly know what has been going on in an entire Universe going back 4 quadrillion years or so. Pardon me but I am just asking?
Lakey
Ted
Gold Meritorious Patron
The Way Out Is Through
Hello Johnny!
I see you have assigned yourself Doubt for being here and posting. This is a wrong-headed move. Assign yourself Aliveness(!) for being here and communicating.
Whose Doubt are you wearing? Would it be yours or theirs?
Look, you started a process. Carry on with it as any good auditor would. Do not let the composite pc known as ESMB flounder.
Lastly, you must focus on the positives in your pc and strengthen them if you ever wish to address the big negatives. This is just basic auditing.
You seem to be a good man, Johnny, and a being with a mission. You have done no harm here. It is but an illusion, likely both yours and theirs.
Please continue.
Hello Johnny!
I see you have assigned yourself Doubt for being here and posting. This is a wrong-headed move. Assign yourself Aliveness(!) for being here and communicating.
Whose Doubt are you wearing? Would it be yours or theirs?
Look, you started a process. Carry on with it as any good auditor would. Do not let the composite pc known as ESMB flounder.
Lastly, you must focus on the positives in your pc and strengthen them if you ever wish to address the big negatives. This is just basic auditing.
You seem to be a good man, Johnny, and a being with a mission. You have done no harm here. It is but an illusion, likely both yours and theirs.
Please continue.
Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
That's hilarious. I've only ever seen the (Tech Vols) HCOB from which your garbled quote is taken. A better version is from this part of The Anderson Report at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/audit/ar11.html:
In HCO Bull. [their abbreviation, not mine (Paul)!] of the 28th September 1963, Hubbard writes, "Confusion between Implants and Actual GPM's occurs because the implanters used types of goals and patterns found in actual GPM's. Implanters obviously had a knowledge, from historical record or even research, of what a thetan's own goals look like but obviously they never developed the data to a workable therapy or they probably would not have continued to be driven to such costly expedients as continuous implanting, between lives installations, &c.
The highest level of treatment technology known to exist in the universe before Scientology was Pictureology wherein, at a signal from the therapist, the thetan crunched up the engram. This is currently in use (and has been for many trillions of years) in the Galactic Confederation."
The highest level of treatment technology known to exist in the universe before Scientology was Pictureology wherein, at a signal from the therapist, the thetan crunched up the engram. This is currently in use (and has been for many trillions of years) in the Galactic Confederation."
Are we talking legal theory or who-gives-a-fuck practical reality? Pooks posts CofS emails all the time, and Emma doesn't object to them. So go ahead.
Indeed. It is embarrassing to acknowledge that for many years I thought like that too, although with slight doubts sometimes.
I discovered that if one assumes as a stable datum that he lied so much that absolutely nothing of his can be taken at face value, then so much falls into place. It's a great stable datum for understanding Hubbard.
Paul
Ted
Gold Meritorious Patron
Quote:
Last but more important, how can people possibly accept that LRH knew everything which has ever happened in the entire Physcial Universe ever siince the first civilization took root quardrillions of years ago?
Indeed. It is embarrassing to acknowledge that for many years I thought like that too, although with slight doubts sometimes.
I discovered that if one assumes as a stable datum that he lied so much that absolutely nothing of his can be taken at face value, then so much falls into place. It's a great stable datum for understanding Hubbard.
Paul
Such acceptance is very childlike, isn't it? Here we are now growing and having grown up, no longer having to view the world as filtered by a "parent."
I agree with your stable datum shift, Paul. With that shift comes a whole new reality.
.
Ted
Gold Meritorious Patron
The Dalai Lama Says...
Dalai Lama: "When we develop a genuine appreciation of the value of compassion, our outlook on others begins automatically to change. This can serve as a powerful influence on the conduct of our lives. When tempted to deceive others, our compassion for them will prevent us from entertaining the idea. When we realize our work is in danger of being exploited to the detriment of others, compassion will cause us to disengage from it."
I post these thoughts because they stand in stark contrast to Ronnie and his scientology sans people off good will. Perhaps it will help someone evaluate their situation. Now the question might be, "Did Ron have a genuine appreciation of the value of compassion?"
Given his destructive orders, the ones contrary to known policies, the GO/OSA orders and projects for example, the answer to the aforementioned question is a resounding, "No."
That's my evaluation. What's your'n?
Dalai Lama: "When we develop a genuine appreciation of the value of compassion, our outlook on others begins automatically to change. This can serve as a powerful influence on the conduct of our lives. When tempted to deceive others, our compassion for them will prevent us from entertaining the idea. When we realize our work is in danger of being exploited to the detriment of others, compassion will cause us to disengage from it."
I post these thoughts because they stand in stark contrast to Ronnie and his scientology sans people off good will. Perhaps it will help someone evaluate their situation. Now the question might be, "Did Ron have a genuine appreciation of the value of compassion?"
Given his destructive orders, the ones contrary to known policies, the GO/OSA orders and projects for example, the answer to the aforementioned question is a resounding, "No."
That's my evaluation. What's your'n?
RogerB
Crusader
HTML Code:
John,
The response to your first post on this and other threads reminded me of an important piece of tech written by Alan that I will post here now.
It speaks for itself, though I must say, in the inimitable Alan Walter way
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerB View Post
Hi Rog....
Thank you for all of the beautiful Allen Walter Tech, We were close friends at one time, and the material was of real value for it harmonizes with many things I learned in the decades that followed my declare.
I wrote and posted this reply to you, but as I cannot find it on the site, it may not have been submitted. So I am doing it again.
Snipped . . . .
So I am in doubt as to what to do.
So for now I will just say thanks for the data Roger. I am going to sit on the side lines for a while, and try to figure out what to do next.
I have made this an open post to see how people choose to respond to this one.
Regardless of whether I ever post another word, it has been a pure pleasure to feel the presence and love of you and your wife again. And it has been a pure pleasure to bask in the wisdom, love and intelligence of those I acknowledged as we went along.
Wishing you what you wish for yourself.
Love
Johnny
The Not So Magic Thetan
So, Johnny Boy,
I see the "affected by the response to your first post on ESMB process" is still running and producing TA
Eventually the shit runs out and one comes to an equilibrium of the good sense versus the nonsense.
It just takes the being present, maintaining one's presence and truth and not getting swayed by what is not true for you.
Actually, I got to my PM's before I saw this post, so for the rest of you, I answered Raffo fulsomely via PM
Rog
Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
God Roger, I already bitched at Raffo for double-posting and the dev-t it causes. Don't YOU start!
Paul
EP - Ethics Particle
Gold Meritorious Patron
Heard from furry contingent...
The doggies are gonna be inconsolable if TMT does not keep posting!
EP
The doggies are gonna be inconsolable if TMT does not keep posting! EP
RogerB
Crusader
Ahhhh, I'm having a good laugh. Picking self up from floor . . . . Dully, you may not intend it, but sometimes you are hilarious
Actually, I just thought I'd be complete.
I wouldn't mind wondering that some from that other thread don't come over here, and many here don't bother with the slug-fest over there.
So maybe Johnny should continue to post on both threads . . . . that way we keep the fighters over there and the love, honor and appreciators here
Howzat for an idea?
Mind you, we'll have to pay attention as to which thread we are on . . . . or maybe I won't bother with the other one.
Yeh, I feel better already.
R
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