"Scientology Task Force of the Hamburg Interior Authority" to be closed

[Dulloldfart]

So the Hamburg Senate voted to save 140,000 Euros a year by scaling down the operation. This is not a huge sum to a large city government.

Now, this didn't just happen out of the blue. Someone, one person, must have originally proposed this idea, and then it gained support. I have to ask, who was pushing this? What are *their* connections? I mean, I'm sure the CofS had nothing to do with it. . . .

Paul

 

[MrNobody]

So the Hamburg Senate voted to save 140,000 Euros a year by scaling down the operation. This is not a huge sum to a large city government.

Right. That's just peanuts. It isn't even enough to fill one of the many holes in the different budgets Hamburg has.

Now, this didn't just happen out of the blue. Someone, one person, must have originally proposed this idea, and then it gained support. I have to ask, who was pushing this? What are *their* connections? I mean, I'm sure the CofS had nothing to do with it. . . .

Paul

Good question, but since too many political stuff happens behind closed doors (I've witnessed several "unofficial" meetings and saw what came from them), I doubt you'll ever find an acceptable answer to that one.

Having that said, I think it's a big loss, that Ursula as the known and trusted go-to-gal has lost her position and her well-known and effective organization. But Germany has many organizations that can and do help cult victims. In my area, which has a low to medium population density, the Diakonie (a roof organization of the protestant church, under which all their "help and care" organizations operate) alone has at least 5 cult-related help and information centers within an area of less than 100 km².

So I'd say $cn just has lost it's "special snowflake" status, and is now just another cult, like many others.

Just my €0.02

 

[Nicole]

So I'd say $cn just has lost it's "special snowflake" status, and is now just another cult, like many others.

I see it different, in the public view it can seem so and it changed. But if you take a nearer look Scientology is different to other cults. That hasn't changed. They want to infiltrate the politic and other things. That behaviour of Scientology didn't stop. Of course we are having in Germany lots of other control and helping things against Scientology, but the Task Force was anything special.

So the Hamburg Senate voted to save 140,000 Euros a year by scaling down the operation. This is not a huge sum to a large city government.

Now, this didn't just happen out of the blue. Someone, one person, must have originally proposed this idea, and then it gained support. I have to ask, who was pushing this? What are *their* connections? I mean, I'm sure the CofS had nothing to do with it. . . .

Paul

The Green Party in Germany is against the control of any cult etc. They made in the Hamburg Senat together with the CDU (Christian Democratic Union) a coalition. So that these to parties got in Hamburg the most votes. They are making together at the moment the politic in the State (not town) of Hamburg. Hamburg is a German State and a German Town (something special). They make a coalition with a contract and maybe that was one part of this contract, but this is a assumption.

 

[MrNobody]

I see it different, in the public view it can seem so and it changed. But if you take a nearer look Scientology is different to other cults. That hasn't changed. They want to infiltrate the politic and other things. That behaviour of Scientology didn't stop.

In which way is $cn different from other cults? Full control over all their members, bleeding them financially, physically and mentally dry, control over every aspect of their lives and thoughts, the promise to create a better world for "humanity" (however they define that term), all that can be found in many cults. $cn was just a bit more effective and successful with them getting the ear of opinion leaders and being able to ride on the coattails of valid topics (Human Rights, Drugs, Female Politicians, whatever). Apart from their "success" rate, I see no difference. The basic traits are the same in all cults.

Of course we are having in Germany lots of other control and helping things against Scientology, but the Task Force was anything special.

<snip>

The Task Force WAS special, no doubt about that, but we have to live with the fact that "Democracy" deemed a new concert hall, or whatever it is, more important than a few lives. So all we can do is work with the tools we have left, and we still DO have quite a few of those.

 

[Nicole]

In which way is $cn different from other cults? Full control over all their members, bleeding them financially, physically and mentally dry, control over every aspect of their lives and thoughts, the promise to create a better world for "humanity" (however they define that term), all that can be found in many cults. $cn was just a bet more effective and successful with them getting the ear of opinion leaders and being able to ride on the coattails of valid topics (Human Rights, Drugs, Female Politicians, whatever). Apart from their "success rate, I see no difference. The basic traits are the same in all cults.



The Task Force WAS special, no doubt about that, but we have to live with the fact that "Democracy" deemed a new concert hall, or whatever it is, more important than a few lives. So all we can do is work with the tools we have left, and we still DO have quite a few of those.

Scientology is very different from other cults. Just one question which cult has a secret service?

 

[He-man]

Scientology is very different from other cults. Just one question which cult has a secret service?

these guys?

Yeah, I can´t think of any other cult that has a secret service, but I suspect most "religions", cult sects, etc, has at least some kind of "PR" department, and attached lobby organisations.

 

[MrNobody]

Scientology is very different from other cults. Just one question which cult has a secret service?

How would I know? They're "secret"
But the moonies have something like that and some OSA-like stuff as well, IIRC. And did you follow the Baghwan story closely?

 

[Zinjifar]

Scientology is very different from other cults. Just one question which cult has a secret service?

Most have some version of an in-house Gestapo. But, they're organized differently and most are internally directed, more than towards the 'heathens'. Exceptions there being the Mormons, Aum, Moonies and Bhagwanites.

Scientology is, however, a special and extreme case.

Zinj

 

[Nicole]

In which way is $cn different from other cults? Full control over all their members, bleeding them financially, physically and mentally dry, control over every aspect of their lives and thoughts, the promise to create a better world for "humanity" (however they define that term), all that can be found in many cults. $cn was just a bit more effective and successful with them getting the ear of opinion leaders and being able to ride on the coattails of valid topics (Human Rights, Drugs, Female Politicians, whatever). Apart from their "success" rate, I see no difference. The basic traits are the same in all cults.



The Task Force WAS special, no doubt about that, but we have to live with the fact that "Democracy" deemed a new concert hall, or whatever it is, more important than a few lives. So all we can do is work with the tools we have left, and we still DO have quite a few of those.

I made yesterday a very fast post. No time, children stood behind me....

Yes, we have to work now with the tools that the parties in Hamburg left. But I can be angry about this descison and IMO it is importand to write about that wrong descision.

You wrote about "Democracy". In regular I like it to live in Germany. We can say what we think, without going to jail etc. We can go to the police without to be frightened for the police. As I was younger and I studied I went to a country (to help their children who lives in really bad conditions). In that country you had to be frightened when the police comes. A very terrible feeling.

I think about Scientology and their target to infiltrate the politic in Democracy countries. IMO we have to educate more and speak more and it is wrong to play Scientology down. The closing of the Task Force in Hamburg plays Scientology down. It is a wrong signal. It is a wrong signal to Scientology, they see it as a win and a wrong signal to the people in Germany.

I didn't want to live in a state where I must be frightened for the police. Where fear governed!

But it is true we have to live now with the other things that are left. The other organizations that could help, I postet it before, the Verfassungsschutz and the police.
I remember as I read the book from Norbert Potthoff (an Exs). He wrotes that he after he came from Danemark was frightened to talk with the police, because the uniforms remembered him to the Sea Org uniforms. He lost his believe in the help of the police. I hope that Scientologists that wants to leave aren't frightened for the police and I also hope that they find the other helping resources that we are having.

That resources we have to publish now and make it popular.

 

[Nicole]

Original posted at WWP by dispart http://forums.whyweprotest.net/291-...hamburg-scientology-task-force-close-70748/2/

dispart:

The "Bund Deutscher Kriminalbeamter" [roughly translated: Association of German Police Officers], essentially a kind of union of all police officers in Germany, has issued a statement strongly criticizing the decision by the Hamburg Senate to shut down the AG Scientology.

original statement here: Polizeipresse: Bund Deutscher Kriminalbeamter (BDK) - BDK: Ein guter Tag für Scientology

attempt at translation here:



BDK: A Good Day for Scientology

31.August 2010 | 18:58

Berlin (OTS) Worldwide unique Task Force Scientology in Hamburg falls victim to saving measures.

Only in April then Senator of the Interior and now Mayor Christoph Ahlhaus stated that Scientology ought to be banned and he announced "that this inhumane organization operates in violation of the law for associations."

At the beginning of this month the Hamburg Senate was still confirming that there had been no change in the assessment of the danger posed by the Scientology Organization.

"[In light of this] the decision becomes all the more incomprehensible to conduct a "re-organisation" of the department in a way which is supposed to bring in 140,000 Euro annualy by reductions in the number of personell, but which factually renders the department unable to do its work" the federal head of the BDK Klaus Jansen criticized the decision by the Hamburg Senate, which is also going to have federal implications.

The Scientology Organization is being monitored in several states by the Office for the Protection of the Constitution beginning in 1997 based on a decision by the permanent conference of the Interior Ministers.

Since 1992 Ursula Caberta has headed the Task Force Scientology, which was unique in its form in Germany. Because of this, the Task Force Scientology was also a competent department for requests coming from all the other states. In the future, Ursula Caberta is supposed to remain responsible for the public relations work concerning Scientology at the Hamburg Interior Authority, but no longer for individual consultation of people in the process of leaving Scientology or people seeking advise.

This job is supposed to be taken over by the Office for Protection of the Constitution in the future. Findings by the OPC are, however, usually confidential and cannot be accessed by the general public.

"In particular the important advisory activity, which often requires a lot of time, directed at family members of Scientology members, at the economy and at people who are leaving will be made impossible because of the restructuring" Klaus Jensen, Federal Head of the BDK, describes the future advisory deficit.

That today there is that much information about the machinations of Scientology available on a federal level and not only in Hamburg is a success of the Task Force Scientology, which consistently did educational work even when faced with a lot of resistance.

"Under these circumstances the educational and public relations work is made significantly more difficult and probably, in some respects, even made impossible" concludes the Federal Head of the BDK Klaus Jansen.

 

[MrNobody]

Just to make a small correction to Sauerländerin's post: Kriminalpolizei is just one branch of the German police force. Basically it's the investigative branch. Babelfish translates "Kriminalpolizei" to "plainclothes police", and I'd say that's what it basically is.

 

[Nicole]

"Kriminalpolizei" is e.g. the police that you could see at the German "tatort".

Here a little correction the BDK that wrotes the article is a union of Bundeskriminalamt (Federal Criminal Police Office), the Bundespolizei (federal police) and the Zollfahndung (duty tracing).
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bund_Deutscher_Kriminalbeamter
http://www.bdk.de/wer-wir-sind/

It is more than Mr.Nobody wrote. Why are you making the BKD bad?

 

[MrNobody]

"Kriminalpolizei" is e.g. the police that you could see at the German "tatort".

Here a little correction the BDK that wrotes the article is a union of Bundeskriminalamt (Federal Criminal Police Office), the Bundespolizei (federal police) and the Zollfahndung (duty tracing).
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bund_Deutscher_Kriminalbeamter
http://www.bdk.de/wer-wir-sind/

It is more than Mr.Nobody wrote. Why are you making the BKD bad?

Who is making the BDK bad? Not I, that's for sure. I just mentioned that the BDK only represents a part of a sub-section of Germany's police forces, not all of the German police forces.

Hier mal auf Deutsch, damit du es auch verstehst: Der BDK repräsentiert einen (großen) Teil der Deutschen Kriminalbeamten. Der BDK repräsentiert NICHT die deutsche Polizei. Unterschied begriffen?

Schlechtgemacht habe ich gar nichts, lediglich diesen IMO wichtigen Unterschied herausgestellt, den du unterschlagen hattest.

 

[Nicole]

Who is making the BDK bad? Not I, that's for sure. I just mentioned that the BDK only represents a part of a sub-section of Germany's police forces, not all of the German police forces.

Hier mal auf Deutsch, damit du es auch verstehst: Der BDK repräsentiert einen (großen) Teil der Deutschen Kriminalbeamten. Der BDK repräsentiert NICHT die deutsche Polizei. Unterschied begriffen?

Schlechtgemacht habe ich gar nichts, lediglich diesen IMO wichtigen Unterschied herausgestellt, den du unterschlagen hattest.

First I quoted from WWP it wasn't my text.

Second you wrote:

Just to make a small correction to Sauerländerin's post: Kriminalpolizei is just one branch of the German police force. Basically it's the investigative branch. Babelfish translates "Kriminalpolizei" to "plainclothes police", and I'd say that's what it basically is.

It seems to me, that you made the BKD smaller than it is. That was the reason I corrected this. Plainclothes Police gets translated with Zivile Polizisten. I wanted to explain that the BKD is more than that. It seems to me that you make it bad. If it wasn't your intention, I will excuse.

 

[secretiveoldfag]

I can't see that anyone has so far mentioned something that I seem to have picked up, that the new leader of the Hamburg Senate plans to ban Scientology once in office.

If this is true (and I have no dox or linx) maybe he imagines this will solve the problem?

If so, maybe he will find he is sadly mistaken?

It is odd to me that the German Greens are, even passively, tolerant of Scientology. Do they know very much about it? On this topic the activities of Michael and Sabine Hinz alias Kent in Brandenburg are of some relevance. (I posted the whole thing in the Hitler thread.)

 

[MrNobody]

First I quoted from WWP it wasn't my text.

Second you wrote:



It seems to me, that you made the BKD smaller than it is. That was the reason I corrected this. Plainclothes Police gets translated with Zivile Polizisten. I wanted to explain that the BKD is more than that. It seems to me that you make it bad. If it wasn't your intention, I will excuse.

You can excuse or not excuse whatever you want, it does not change the fact that the members of the BDK don't make 100% of the Kriminalpolizei, and the Kriminalpolizei doesn't make 100% of Germany's police force. Thats all I said.

However, I still expect you to continue your misinterpretation of what I said, so all I can offer is this: I'll meet one higher-up German police officer on Monday, and 20 or 30 more of those over the next two weeks. Maybe one of them can give me a solid estimate on what the percentage of the Kriminalpolizei is, in relation to all of Germany's police forces. Maybe then you'll understand what I said, although I doubt it.

 

[Nicole]

I can't see that anyone has so far mentioned something that I seem to have picked up, that the new leader of the Hamburg Senate plans to ban Scientology once in office.

If this is true (and I have no dox or linx) maybe he imagines this will solve the problem?

If so, maybe he will find he is sadly mistaken?

It is odd to me that the German Greens are, even passively, tolerant of Scientology. Do they know very much about it? On this topic the activities of Michael and Sabine Hinz alias Kent in Brandenburg are of some relevance. (I posted the whole thing in the Hitler thread.)

As the film "Bis nichts mehr bleibt" was on topic. The new leader of Hamburg Alhaus said that Scientology should get forbidden. Now as he got voted he closed (together with the senat) the task force. I don't know why. Official they want to save money.

What the really reason was, we don't know.

I guess the Green Party is informated about Scientology. IMO it is against their ideals to fight against a cult. But this is speculation.

 

[Nicole]

You can excuse or not excuse whatever you want, it does not change the fact that the members of the BDK don't make 100% of the Kriminalpolizei, and the Kriminalpolizei doesn't make 100% of Germany's police force. Thats all I said.

However, I still expect you to continue your misinterpretation of what I said, so all I can offer is this: I'll meet one higher-up German police officer on Monday, and 20 or 30 more of those over the next two weeks. Maybe one of them can give me a solid estimate on what the percentage of the Kriminalpolizei is, in relation to all of Germany's police forces. Maybe then you'll understand what I said, although I doubt it.

Again I quoted from WWP, I didn't translate it, I didn't write it and I didn't peculate like you wrote in German.

The proplem is this sentence:

Babelfish translates "Kriminalpolizei" to "plainclothes police", and I'd say that's what it basically is.

Plainclothes police is less than the Kriminalpolizei is. It gets translated with Zivilstreife, but Kriminalpolizei is much more. It is a upper-middle-level civil servants. If I am telling a Kriminal Police Officer he is a Plainclothes Police Officer, he would get angry or he starts laughing. :wink2:

That is fact

...the fact that the members of the BDK don't make 100% of the Kriminalpolizei, and the Kriminalpolizei doesn't make 100% of Germany's police force.

 

[Nicole]

dispart send me a PM at WWP.

Here is the quote:

dispart:
Could you please post this message on ESMB in the thread ""Scientology Task Force of the Hamburg Interior Authority" to be closed"? Thanks in advance.

I have now corrected the explanation of what the BDK is in my post. My original explanation as quoted by you on ESMB was wrong. It's a kind of union not for all police officers, but as stated in the ESMB thread only for "Kriminalpolizei", which is AFAIK the part of police that investigates crimes. That's my understanding of the wikipedia article and the statements on the BDK's homepage. So I think that the BDK does indeed make up 100% of Kriminalpolizei, but nothing else.

Concerning "I can't see that anyone has so far mentioned something that I seem to have picked up, that the new leader of the Hamburg Senate plans to ban Scientology once in office. "

That's not my take on what he said, I think he wanted to participate in the debate on the federal level and suggest his support for a ban in Germany.

 

[MrNobody]

Aus dem ersten Absatz dieser Seite: http://www.bdk.de/wer-wir-sind/

Der BDK vertritt kompetent und ausschließlich die beruflichen und sozialen Belange aller Angehörigen der Kriminalpolizei, Beamte wie Tarifbeschäftigte und setzt sich für die wirtschaftlichen, beruflichen, sozialen und kulturellen Interessen seiner Mitglieder ein. Der BDK zählt bereits heute die überwiegende Mehrheit aller Kriminalbeamtinnen und -beamten zu seinen Mitgliedern.

Ergo: NICHT 100% aller Polizisten, und auch NICHT 100% aller Kriminalpolizisten. Könnt ihr vielleicht mal aufhören, hier falsch zu informieren, oder wäre das zu viel verlangt?