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The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

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programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
And one or two more things:

Six months on the purification rundown is absolutely criminal.

Five grams of immediate release niacin day after day is criminal medical practice.

Even without doing that rundown, we sometimes took large doses of niacin on staff.
I did experience skin "flushing" on the first dose but not much after that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niacin
Skip down to "Toxicity" and read what it says.

That's interesting info.
 

FoTi

Crusader
On the "What you are saying is that..." that I use, I am trying to use it as an acknowledgement to let you know that I have empathy for you and believe that I have duplicated you. I want my acknowledgements to be appropriate and personal and to really convey that I care and believe I understand. You are the second person who has objected to this phrase so I have to rephrase it. Do you have any suggestion for a better phrasing?

What I am really trying to communicate to you is that I consider you important and consider your story very valuable and that I read it and I believe that I understand what you are saying. What is a short phrase which says all of this? What if I inserted "as I see it" and "correct me if I'm wrong", i.e. "As I see it, what you are saying is that.............., please correct me if I am wrong. Would that work for you? If not, I'd like to get something which did work.
Lakey

What I write or say is just what I write or say. There is no hidden meaning. It's just what it is. It doesn't have to be interpreted.

Suppose you post on this thread....."I went out to dinner with Evy. We had a wonderful time." Then I read your post and I comment..."What you are saying is that you went out to dinner with Evy. I'm glad you had a good time, Lakey."

Or...say you post..."When I was on the Apollo, I saw a lot of things there that should have never happened." Then I read your post and I comment....."As I see it, what you are saying is that when you were on the Apollo you saw a alot of things there that should have never happened. Thanks for telling us about your experiences on the Apollo, Lakey."

What doesn't need to be in either one of the above paragraphs?

What's a simple acknowledgement to you?

How do you normally talk to people when they tell you something? Do you repeat back to them what they said?
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Prolonged release version was the problem.

Not sure of problems re immediate release over 6 months.

Probably minimal as these high and prolonged doses were given
to handle high cholesteral, over years, and are the basis of
medical problems re niacin.

Better medical moderating of such problems has never existed
re the purif AFAIK, and should be. There have been a few[ very
few best I know] bad results.


However, many on the purif in the US were referred by courts and
were criminal and didn't want to come off drugs.

Those who had heavy drug history may have had damaged
livers, kidneys and the purif may have been too steep a gradient.

Me, did it twice and loved it.

I ended up in the hospital almost hallucinating. And it wasn't because I was running out quantities of LSD. I had done a successful Purif along with the Survival RD in 1980. A year later I had an exteme PTS situation having run into someone I'd known before this life. Part of the manifestation was a 'druggedness'. It was my brainy idea to re-tread the Purif. :duh: I beseached Jeff Walker to allow my local mission to monitor this. There was no one AT that local mission trained adequately to do this. However, they needed the money and went loosely by the original outlines contained in the first descriptions of how to deliver it.

I was not a sweater. I could not be kept in the box very long without coming out to cool down. I had not taken drugs to begin with to amount to anything. I had a slightly irregular valve in my heart that was exacerbated by some diet pills I had once been on. THE FACT THAT THERE WAS NO ONE TO MONITOR WHETHER MY BODY WAS ACTUALLY SWEATING OUT THE MILLIGRAMS OF NIACIN OR VITAMINS A AND E BEFORE UPPING THE DOSAGE ALMOST KILLED ME.

I was given salt and potassium pills at the same time. I was never told NOT to mix these supplements. I had symptoms of vitamin A overdoes when I went into the hospital rushing from work at 1:45 in the morning. I was disoriented and my blood pressure from the accumulated niacin was doing something to my heart. I could not bend my arms and legs. They were 'stiff' from the veins and arteries being pummelled with so much pumping blood that I was rigid. The whites of my eyes were going pink. I saw only pink as even my pupils seemed to be affected. During this I had sort of displaced myself to an outside of the body position. My heart has never been the same and I have had lingering problems since. The lasting effects of the continuing Out Int keyed in things that were very expensive to fix...

My whole life changed as a result of a new heart condition where my two ventricles were now off cycle with each other. I felt like I needed electric shock to put them back in sync. It took several yrs for this physical dilemma to cool off. Today I know that it was the ever increasing niacin along with the mixing of the salt pills with the potassium that knocked me for a loop. To let unskilled persons execute a C/S on the purifs who are not medically trained and who do not directly observe the clients is criminal. There were contributing factors in my case of course. But those contributing factors including it being an unnecessary action would not have sent me close to doom on their own. :p
I spent all money I had on account after that hospital episode. Unmocked all upper levels and the BC to get reviews. I shoulda gone to a cardiac specialist!!! I thought the truth of my problem lay in the bank.... i.e. restimulation from having gone into shock and going exterior.

I have to give you THIS___the first Purif did what it was supposed to and I did it no longer than what I felt was the EP. I'm not totally against a sweat program.:no: Its dangerous if done on individuals whose health puts them at risk and it is VERY dangerous to mess with niacin in large quantities.

I'm glad better medical monitoring as never existed. :yes: It was time for a medical monitoring update training class. Flag seemed to have the only doctors working hand in hand as consultants on the program when I left.
 

FoTi

Crusader
I ended up in the hospital almost hallucinating. And it wasn't because I was running out quantities of LSD. I had done a successful Purif along with the Survival RD in 1980. A year later I had an exteme PTS situation having run into someone I'd known before this life. Part of the manifestation was a 'druggedness'. It was my brainy idea to re-tread the Purif. :duh: I beseached Jeff Walker to allow my local mission to monitor this. There was no one AT that local mission trained adequately to do this. However, they needed the money and went loosely by the original outlines contained in the first descriptions of how to deliver it.

I was not a sweater. I could not be kept in the box very long without coming out to cool down. I had not taken drugs to begin with to amount to anything. I had a slightly irregular valve in my heart that was exacerbated by some diet pills I had once been on. THE FACT THAT THERE WAS NO ONE TO MONITOR WHETHER MY BODY WAS ACTUALLY SWEATING OUT THE MILLIGRAMS OF NIACIN OR VITAMINS A AND E BEFORE UPPING THE DOSAGE ALMOST KILLED ME.

I was given salt and potassium pills at the same time. I was never told NOT to mix these supplements. I had symptoms of vitamin A overdoes when I went into the hospital rushing from work at 1:45 in the morning. I was disoriented and my blood pressure from the accumulated niacin was doing something to my heart. I could not bend my arms and legs. They were 'stiff' from the veins and arteries being pummelled with so much pumping blood that I was rigid. The whites of my eyes were going pink. I saw only pink as even my pupils seemed to be affected. During this I had sort of displaced myself to an outside of the body position. My heart has never been the same and I have had lingering problems since. The lasting effects of the continuing Out Int keyed in things that were very expensive to fix...

My whole life changed as a result of a new heart condition where my two ventricles were now off cycle with each other. I felt like I needed electric shock to put them back in sync. It took several yrs for this physical dilemma to cool off. Today I know that it was the ever increasing niacin along with the mixing of the salt pills with the potassium that knocked me for a loop. To let unskilled persons execute a C/S on the purifs who are not medically trained and who do not directly observe the clients is criminal. There were contributing factors in my case of course. But those contributing factors including it being an unnecessary action would not have sent me close to doom on their own. :p
I spent all money I had on account after that hospital episode. Unmocked all upper levels and the BC to get reviews. I shoulda gone to a cardiac specialist!!! I thought the truth of my problem lay in the bank.... i.e. restimulation from having gone into shock and going exterior.

I have to give you THIS___the first Purif did what it was supposed to and I did it no longer than what I felt was the EP. I'm not totally against a sweat program.:no: Its dangerous if done on individuals whose health puts them at risk and it is VERY dangerous to mess with niacin in large quantities.

I'm glad better medical monitoring as never existed. :yes: It was time for a medical monitoring update training class. Flag seemed to have the only doctors working hand in hand as consultants on the program when I left.

Hat....what's that about not mixing potassium and salt? I never heard of that. I used potassium and salt together a lot when it was hot even after the purif.
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
I ended up in the hospital almost hallucinating. And it wasn't because I was running out quantities of LSD. I had done a successful Purif along with the Survival RD in 1980. A year later I had an exteme PTS situation having run into someone I'd known before this life. Part of the manifestation was a 'druggedness'. It was my brainy idea to re-tread the Purif. :duh: I beseached Jeff Walker to allow my local mission to monitor this. There was no one AT that local mission trained adequately to do this. However, they needed the money and went loosely by the original outlines contained in the first descriptions of how to deliver it.

I was not a sweater. I could not be kept in the box very long without coming out to cool down. I had not taken drugs to begin with to amount to anything. I had a slightly irregular valve in my heart that was exacerbated by some diet pills I had once been on. THE FACT THAT THERE WAS NO ONE TO MONITOR WHETHER MY BODY WAS ACTUALLY SWEATING OUT THE MILLIGRAMS OF NIACIN OR VITAMINS A AND E BEFORE UPPING THE DOSAGE ALMOST KILLED ME.

I was given salt and potassium pills at the same time. I was never told NOT to mix these supplements. I had symptoms of vitamin A overdoes when I went into the hospital rushing from work at 1:45 in the morning. I was disoriented and my blood pressure from the accumulated niacin was doing something to my heart. I could not bend my arms and legs. They were 'stiff' from the veins and arteries being pummelled with so much pumping blood that I was rigid. The whites of my eyes were going pink. I saw only pink as even my pupils seemed to be affected. During this I had sort of displaced myself to an outside of the body position. My heart has never been the same and I have had lingering problems since. The lasting effects of the continuing Out Int keyed in things that were very expensive to fix...

My whole life changed as a result of a new heart condition where my two ventricles were now off cycle with each other. I felt like I needed electric shock to put them back in sync. It took several yrs for this physical dilemma to cool off. Today I know that it was the ever increasing niacin along with the mixing of the salt pills with the potassium that knocked me for a loop. To let unskilled persons execute a C/S on the purifs who are not medically trained and who do not directly observe the clients is criminal. There were contributing factors in my case of course. But those contributing factors including it being an unnecessary action would not have sent me close to doom on their own. :p
I spent all money I had on account after that hospital episode. Unmocked all upper levels and the BC to get reviews. I shoulda gone to a cardiac specialist!!! I thought the truth of my problem lay in the bank.... i.e. restimulation from having gone into shock and going exterior.

I have to give you THIS___the first Purif did what it was supposed to and I did it no longer than what I felt was the EP. I'm not totally against a sweat program.:no: Its dangerous if done on individuals whose health puts them at risk and it is VERY dangerous to mess with niacin in large quantities.

I'm glad better medical monitoring as never existed. :yes: It was time for a medical monitoring update training class. Flag seemed to have the only doctors working hand in hand as consultants on the program when I left.


I was on the program somewhere between 11 and 13 days. I think what it was is I flattened out at 11 days then carried on for a few more to be certain.

I was pleased with the results. Good food, rest, moderate exercise, and routine sauna should be a part of a continuing lifestyle for almost anyone's good health.

The thing is, for someone who is messed up, each component of the program can produce a positive gain all by itself: a balanced meal including protein and fiber, added vitamins and minerals, a regular schedule, medical exam followed by any indicated correction, time in sauna, plenty of water for hydration, and a sensible exercise routine.

The sauna bit is often misunderstood. The exercise and sauna are not scientology's version of "shake and bake." The sauna is used to "induce profuse sweating." A guy like me can sweat just thinking about it. It doesn't take much to induce a sweat. So if that kind of person can, for example, sauna for 10 minutes, exit, then sweat for another 10 minutes, that's it. They are sweating and doing the program. When the body stops sweating after going in and out of the sauna a number of times it is saying, "Enough for today!"

People who do not sweat should be on a much different program.

As for the EP, I always felt this was not only a bad joke but also a hidden standard. What kind of BS is it to say the pc does the program until he/she cognites that they are free of toxins? They could say they feel good, or better, but free of toxins? I do not think so unless they are delusional.

Feed the body properly, rest it, give it exercise, make it sweat, the body will respond. The being has no say in the matter.

Or, just toss some good food in the stomach, again the body responds. Nutrients are extracted. Waste is expelled. The body responds by doing what it was designed to do, naturally. What could a person say to that? "I ate an apple. I took a dump. Now I feel wonderful. I cognited that the old saying must be true! 'An apple a day keeps the doctor away. I am ready to attest.'"

What I am saying is, if a person did the regimen for a week, or two, or even three, the body will respond whether the being has a cognition or not. Then, there is only so much room for further response. Like an apple a day may well keep the doctor away, but eating a dozen apples a day is not going to multiply the effect by 12.

I am just simply disgusted every time I hear of Purification Rundowns lasting months on end, or when I hear of massive doses of vitamins causing side effects that require medical attention, or physical difficulties or PTS indications resulting from the very ADMINISTRATION of the program being attributed to the effects/affects of drugs and other things being run out.

All good gains aside, I think there is some weird obsession in scientology with producing euphoria and profiting from delusion in people. There is a line on the Green Form that reads, "Misunderstood case condition?" It is amazing that I have never seen it read on a pc.

:omg::omg::omg:
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
What I write or say is just what I write or say. There is no hidden meaning. It's just what it is. It doesn't have to be interpreted.

I make no effort to interpret, only an effort to condense and paraphrase before acknowledgeing.

Suppose you post on this thread....."I went out to dinner with Evy. We had a wonderful time." Then I read your post and I comment..."What you are saying is that you went out to dinner with Evy. I'm glad you had a good time, Lakey."

This is not a realistic example. When I use the "what you are saying" line, I usually paraphrase a long and sort of complicated phrase into a shorter and simpler phrase. If you say, Mom and I went to the org together, I would never use the "what you are saying" phrase.

Or...say you post..."When I was on the Apollo, I saw a lot of things there that should have never happened." Then I read your post and I comment....."As I see it, what you are saying is that when you were on the Apollo you saw a alot of things there that should have never happened. Thanks for telling us about your experiences on the Apollo, Lakey."

No, no, you are missing the point! I might say that my new senior on Flag, Sandy, just told me one word, "Start!". I protested that I was just in training since I had just today started my Data Evaluators' Course, and had no training in what to do. Sandy then repeated "Start!" and I said, okay, could you please give me your Hat Write Up so I can check out the flow and command lines around here. Sandy said, "God Dam It! THere is no fucking Hat Write Up, just fucking Start!" I then said, this is the Flagship, the highest of all Orgs, how could there not be any Hat Write Up for a major post such as this. Sandy said, "God Dam it. Either fucking get started right now or I am sending you to Ethics". I sat there stunned not knowing what to do.

After all that, an astute reader might say, "So what you were saying is that the Flag Ship with Hubbard on Board was not on policy as you had been led to expect and heavy force was used to get newer people to take the fall when the entire activity collapsed. FOR ME, I WOULD HAVE FELT RELIEF THAT SOMEBODY DUPLICATED WHAT I WAS SAYING, CONDENSED A LONG RAMBLING DISSERTATION INTO JUST A COUPLE OF SENTENCES AND TOOK THE TROUBLE TO ACKNOWLEDGE ME.


What doesn't need to be in either one of the above paragraphs?

Your above paragrahs are not what I do, I don't just repeat the exact sentence but shorten and paraphrase many longer sentences so your above question is not relevant.

What's a simple acknowledgement to you?

TR 2 says to give an appropriate acknowledgement. In my example above about Sandy using profanity and acting irrationally and me being all confused as to how to act or how to respond to her, just saying "good" of "okay" is not appropriate and comes across as being robotic.

How do you normally talk to people when they tell you something? Do you repeat back to them what they said?

Oh yes, if the person seems to have charge in a major area and discusses it at length and expresses a lot of emotiions and frustration, I usually try to repeat back to them in a more fluid and condensed form what they just said. By just saying "all right" or "interesting" or a short acknowledgement I feel that the person may not really believe that I duplicated them.

Now on a simple short topic of a social nature, I won't condense and repeat back. I use it in only two situations. First is as I have described above and the second instance in which I use it is in study. If a professor states a complex topic, I used to raise my hand and rephrase what the professor said in my own words and then ask, "So, if I understand you correctly, what you are saying is "blah de blah"? I've had good luck using it in education and in listening to people telling a painful story.

Nevertheless, when critiquing someone's story, It is the writer of the story who should be catered to. You seem to find my technique extremely offensive so I will not use it on you any more. I meant you no harm, only the best. My solution is just not to use the technique on you any longer. I am not going to change the technique and completely eliminate doing it over just your one instance but if several other people complain, then I would cease using the technique.
Lakey
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hat....what's that about not mixing potassium and salt? I never heard of that. I used potassium and salt together a lot when it was hot even after the purif.


I use Morton's Lite Salt. It is a combination of salt and potassium. No harm.

Salt and potassium have to stay in balance in the body. If that balance gets out of whack it affects the heart muscle. The body can handle a salt overload. It does not handle a potassium overload so well.
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Good Point.
There are many roads to Rome though. Like Roger has pointed out, the 'cookie cutter" technique denied a lot of people their right items. I noticed that even something like the False Purpose RD can get to what is protected in the mind...like service facsimilies or computations which reveal themselves to be ludicrous. I DO agree that the bank is a self protecting mechanism and you sometimes have to be adept at crawling under the wire.

I've found protectors of charge in running NOTs types of procedures. A grouping whose job it is to keep the attention 'away' from the area or exude unconsciousness, or disinterest etc. There/s lots of this kind of thing in the bank and its well worth while to have the right tool for the right job. :yes:

I have found plenty of these too, especially on Excalibur. This is why I am so leery of only handling what the preclear offers up to be handled. The auditor must get beyond the preclear's blockers and get him to dig into that. Calling this a "cookie cutter" approach, as some people do, is no more than a degrade of good workable tech.

The meter sees deeper into the pc's bank than the pc does.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
I have some heart issues also.

I use Morton's Lite Salt. It is a combination of salt and potassium. No harm.

Salt and potassium have to stay in balance in the body. If that balance gets out of whack it affects the heart muscle. The body can handle a salt overload. It does not handle a potassium overload so well.

As I had it explained to me, the main problem with taking in salt in excess is that it causes more bodily fluids to be retained. This fluid retention seems to lead to more work demand being placed on the heart. It also leads to increased blood pressure. If the heart can not do all the pumping which is required of it, then ones extremities will show a retention of fluids such as near the ankles or wrists. This fluid build up is called edema. If you have this condition, heart doctors will have you take diuretics which are designed to eliminate excess water in the body.

High blood pressure is an unusual "animal". In of itself, it is not necessarily harmful if it occurs for short intervals but when the high blood pressure is chronic, it makes the meart muscle work harder. Like any muscle, when worked hard, the heart muscle enlarges. I asked my cardiologist what was the matter with the heart muscle getting a good workout and growing stronger. The bad news is that the heart enlargement occuring from high blood pressure is a thickening of the heart muscle and this is bad. I don't fully understand why it is harmful but it is very bad when this happens and if enlargement goes on too far, the persons heart will tend to fail.

Potassium is important to keep the electrical impulses of the heart in the proper rhythm. If your heart rhythm is irregular, then you heartbeat is irregular and instead of being efficiently pumped, some of your blood will tend to pool in your atruim ventricle of the heart and this pooling may lead to clot formation. The clot formation will then lead to a high risk of strokes.
Lakey
 
Geoff Levin

picture.php


Geoff Levin introduced me to Scientology in 1968. He is still in. Flag has refused to audit him. He has lots of money on account. He is dying from something. I've heard it is prostrate cancer, but Geoff wouldn't say. he's a good guy.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UKhVRIi_yY

a couple of friends visited Geoff Levin today at his house at 9957 Wornom Ave.
in Shadow Hills CA 91040. The address is not marked on the street. You have to walk up a long driveway, and find the house. first you see the garage, where his car sits with spider webs all over it. He'll be in the house. He has a companion to take care of him. Think hospice. He looks 100 years old, hs skin color is gray, his hair is gray, he''s emaciated, unshaven. He won't invite you in. He was happy to see friends. He came uptone. Chances are good that he will be gone (as in dead) within a week or two.

picture.php


picture.php


if you know him, please go visit.

picture.php


picture.php



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibs-ynGPpN0
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Drat! I spent a good 2 hours trying to get the Lotz videos to play. Missed live chat over here.

Last week I was trying to handle something in my space. I looked at who was assigning an enemy label. Who was keeping secrets from me. Who was running a can't have, and I discovered that there was definitely a game afoot. But the keeping secrets thing blew me out of the water the most. I wasn't even supposed to know that this game was being played or this negative process was being run...or that the intention was that I not win. I also looked at the ongoing effort to line up allies. It really took me some time to cognite that I was involved in a battle between opposing identities here. I think I shoulda gotten an official notice that a gun had been fired. The situation and how to properly regard it went right over my head. Its simply following all the rules of games!
I was surprised to see the L's videos hit on the same concepts I was just chomping on.
 
Last edited:
picture.php


Geoff Levin introduced me to Scientology in 1968. He is still in. Flag has refused to audit him. He has lots of money on account. He is dying from something. I've heard it is prostrate cancer, but Geoff wouldn't say. he's a good guy.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UKhVRIi_yY

a couple of friends visited Geoff Levin today at his house at 9957 Wornom Ave.
in Shadow Hills CA 91040. The address is not marked on the street. You have to walk up a long driveway, and find the house. first you see the garage, where his car sits with spider webs all over it. He'll be in the house. He has a companion to take care of him. Think hospice. He looks 100 years old, hs skin color is gray, his hair is gray, he''s emaciated, unshaven. He won't invite you in. He was happy to see friends. He came uptone. Chances are good that he will be gone (as in dead) within a week or two.

picture.php


picture.php


if you know him, please go visit.

picture.php


picture.php



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibs-ynGPpN0

I know he's important to you. It is my wish he experiences the best possible outcome.


Mark A. Baker
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Hat....what's that about not mixing potassium and salt? I never heard of that. I used potassium and salt together a lot when it was hot even after the purif.

5 hours before I went to the hospital I took 4 huge potassium pills. I had taken some earlier in the day also with salt tablets. I was then drinking tomato juice at my work station and all of a sudden they seemed to dissolve in my stomach at the same time. Things started to go wrong. It was the trigger....definitely. For someone who doesn't sweat much I should've been on a shallower gradient.
I don't remember who told me it was not a good mix, my general paractitioner I believe.
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
CarmeloOrchards

<snip> Geoff Levin introduced me to Scientology in 1968. He is still in. Flag has refused to audit him. He has lots of money on account. He is dying from something. I've heard it is prostrate cancer, but Geoff wouldn't say. he's a good guy. <snip>

I think this is terrible. Does the FSO still adhere to the policy of illegal PCs? I mean is it because Geoff is on medications.

My husband was on valium and other meds while getting assistance at the Champagne/ Urbana org in Illinois. At first they denied him everything except locationals. Later a Class VIII came up from St Louis and gave him auditing to run out his accident. He was not denied a CCRD at AOLA. It seems Flag cannot have any auditing losses and has a tendency to cover their asses.
More rollercoasters have been sent away from auditing lines there than most anywhere else the way I hear it.

Do you know the reason they gave for not handling him anymore?

I hope his passing is as easy as possible.
 
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