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The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

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lkwdblds

Crusader
Thanks Gary. Now if I could only balance my hormones.:thumbsup:

If you were on the West coast and we were still having those monthly coffee clatches which we had, perhaps Mark Baker or I could help you regain your balance or Sweetness and Light could recommend some sort of home remedy. Down in Florida or in Ohio, I believe Ted is our agent for the Eastern U.S. Ted is writing consistently the finest posts of any of us on the Apollo thread right now. Were'nt you two scheduling a lunch get together? Maybe he can recommend a hormone balancing technique to you. He has the answers for virtually everything else, why not that as well?
Gary
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
I did not know they dropped the HAS

When I got in it was primarily the HAS crse that made Scns - which is TRs - which is part of the Objectives deal.

Later they dropped the HAS crse in favour of the STCC and few did the HQS - and didn't make many Scns anymore.

Nick

Nick, I did not know they dropped HAS, can you give an approximate year when that happened? Same for deemphasing HQS. Dropping these vital actions is amazing! It reminds me of Mike Goldstein's story of his Book I seminars course. Diana Hubbard asked Mike to develop a grass roots Book 1 Co Audit type of course. Mike got old timer John Galusha to help him develop the course and piloted it very successsfully in the Denver area. Diana saw the results in Denver and wanted Mike and John to put on the course at Flag.

Make did so, everything went fine for a day or two and then S.O. reps started showing up to view the course. They did not like what they saw! People actually making gains and helping others to make gains while spending very little money. Without even notifying Mike, they altered his course to a more traditional C of S type of affair. High prices, dangling carrots on a stick in front of the prospects, and crush regging to move up from Book 1 auditing to other services. What happened to Mike, I believe he got comm eved. Mike just quit C of S at that point and set up his own delivery system which developed later into Idenics. I hope I have this story right - Its all from memory. All this stuff went down in about 1982 and 1983.

There is another Red Flag which showed clearly to anyone who was willing to see the obvious that C of S was turning away from "Clearing the Planet" It is totally obvious that to actually "Clear the Planet" there would have to be a grass roots campaign for the masses to coaudit each other on some processes. Book I was the logical choice for the auditing process to be used. As Carmelo has illustrated, many other processes could have been used in place of book one. A special book campaign could have been launched to support the grass roots auditing campaign.

This would have had to be done to make any sort of large impact on a planet with 6 billion people, most of whom lived in poverty. Instead of promoting the obvious, C of S squelched this program out of existence everytime it was tried. This was really the only piece of information an astute researcher would need to see that C of S's intention was not to better conditions on this planet. It had another agenda, something quite different in mind.

Incidently, I do not think Int Management really has a clear idea of what their intentions really are for this planet. Top brass know that they want to create palatial syle buildings with 5 star hotel type of furnishings all over the planet but where they go from there does not seem to be clearly defined. Maybe 12 - 15 years ago, the talk was to get all Orgs Saint Hill sized, then release Super Power and OT IX and OT X. Those former goals are no longer mentioned but the only thing mentioned to take their place is the creation of palatial type Org buildings. What goes on inside those buildings is not defined not is the goal or purpose for the buildings.

It looks as if, Management wants the buildings designed so that no live people have to be inside of them accept registrars. A person will be walked through a display of panels with touch screens and by touching various buttons on the panels, a robot type of presentation will be made by electronics desinged into the panels. This eliminates Int Management having to concern itself with inept staff all the time. Somehow, by touching the various panels and seeing them in a certain order, all the person's butoons are supposed to be pushed so that he or she will be easily coerced into investing tens of thousands of dollars into taking services inside the Ideal Org. I find this scene bizarre. No matter how gullable the public is, and most are not that gullabe, only a handful of people would ever fall for this ruse. What is Int Management thinking? I am beginning to be of the opinion that even they do not any longer know what it is they are shooting for!
Lakey
 

EP - Ethics Particle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Shots in the dark!

Here's a lady describing interesting experiences and viewpoints. :wink2:

See if you can spot my good friend Lakey in the cast! :eyeroll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-1xwA4CNHA

EP

EP, I could not find myself. Where am I?

The following is is who I think I was but the internet doesn't have a good picture of him (me).

Franz Xaver Gerl
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
Franz Xaver Gerl (1764 – 1827) was a bass singer and composer of the classical era. He sang the role of Sarastro in the premiere of Mozart's opera The Magic Flute.[1]

...snip...

Here us a sample of an aria I wrote for the operetta "The Philosophers' Stone" in 1790. I was a pretty damn good classical composer judging by this aria I wrote. I cannot compose at all this life, I lost all the talent or is it still there and I just can't access it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL5hRQ1am_w&feature=related

Lakey


And a very excellent and well sung aria it is my friend! :thumbsup::clap:

As to the "Merry Widow" fragment - it is just something I happened upon and was so enchanted by the beauty of the production and the wonderful shots of the various characters' expressions and reactions on the barge, that I was struck with the thought that you might be the one addressed by the "Vilja" :confused2::wink2: ... er, oh wait! That might have been me... or am I the guy playing the violin... :ohmy::coolwink:

Hey - and I had a Jeep too! It started out as a derelict Ford Jeep and I put a Willys body on it from a junkyard, and... but that is both a long story and a trip down memory lane for sure! :happydance:

Mike, EP
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
When I got in it was primarily the HAS crse that made Scns - which is TRs - which is part of the Objectives deal.

Later they dropped the HAS crse in favour of the STCC and few did the HQS - and didn't make many Scns anymore.

Nick

You got it. The old line up was that Div 6 consisted of delivering the Comm Course (TRs) and then HQS. Period. You did the Comm Course, and then moved on the HQS. On completion of HQS you moved on to the Academy levels and/or got some HGC auditing (or alternately you joined staff). The orgs were doing well as long as they kept to that lineup.
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
When I got in it was primarily the HAS crse that made Scns - which is TRs - which is part of the Objectives deal.

Later they dropped the HAS crse in favour of the STCC and few did the HQS - and didn't make many Scns anymore.

Nick


I came in on reading books on my own, watching my friends having fun, then routed onto the HAS course. The HAS consisted of TRs OT-TR-0 through TR-9. The TRs were done as tough as the student could take it. I would guess that most students blew off TR-0. The ones that graduated went on to other courses and auditing.

Typically the next course was HQS. In early 1974 I trained at ASHO on the Mini Supervisor's Course and the HQS Specialists Course on weekends. Both were virtually identical courses with minor differences. Nevertheless, I trained on them back to back with my twin who is, to this day, one of my best friends. During the week we twinned on the Academy Levels at the San Diego Org.

At the mission we ran an exciting course room on weekday evenings applying everything that we were learning on the weekends and during the day. At its height we had co-audits going all over the mission and the neighborhood -- objectives, op pro by dup, SA lists, Dianetics. Enid Vien was the C/S. It was due to her technical guidance that everyone did so well. Today you can find her at www.dynamism.org.

This is when Adams Ave. was actually on Adams Ave. in a little storefront. The TRs chairs, a dozen of them, were set up by the storefront picture window. The customers from the Laundromat next store would often stop to observe the goings-on inside the course room. We had no embarrassment over the crazy stuff we were doing. While the TRs were interesting, I think it must have been doll drills that seemed most bizarre.

This is really a comment on the value of a limited, directive lineup.

From HQS it followed naturally that a student went onto the Student Hat. Then they went onto HSDC if they were still around. Those who could afford it just went to professional auditing. The rest of us continued to co-audit. Co-auditing was encouraged. It was all done for free. Cramming was free. C/S time was free. Ethics, in a limited sense as compared to today, was free.

Between people recognizing some personal gain out of their efforts, gaining new friends, and having a lot of fun jacked up by the idea that we were doing something very worthwhile for the planet as a whole, people found their place and they stayed for years.

On a BC tape LRH mentioned that you can practically destroy an org by putting attention on a downstat area. The downstat area of this limited lineup that, to the best of my knowledge, many of the successful missions used suffered a high attrition rate.

Around 1980 LRH wrote a PL on Div 6 services stating that there needed to be a lot of avenues for a new person to get onto the bridge. A lot of different courses were invented to satisfy that idea. None of these courses led to auditor training except for Div 6 intro and co-audit which was buried in the mix. The Success Through Communication Course originated during this time.

The course is fine in terms of teaching mechanics. It sucks in terms of training in toughness. It is toughness, willingness and ability to confront, that leads to success through communication. Minus the confront and control a student would attain on the HAS and HQS Courses, the STCC is but a ghost.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
1) The product of a vivid imagination. "Controllers" standing outside of time? :lol:

At a most fundamental level, all beings are controllers outside of time. Notice the Action Cycle begins at Tone 40 (outside of time). The cycle descends the tone scale until it reaches Death (solid MEST) at 0.0. The duration of the cycle depends on a number of factors not the least of which is Responsibility. (Response Ability)

2) He's flat out nuts or confused.

One good way to go flat-out nuts or confused is to spin a lot of lies. Then having lost track of the purposes of those lies, when and where they were spun, to whom, under what circumstances, the being gets overwhelmed with its own create and the create of others who are now projecting the lie back to the being in good faith.

There would be no one but self that could exactly postulate/counter-postulate winding up in a psychic battle over self-determinism. This was the same guy who waxed philosophical about not agreeing that any other being or group of beings would have more power unless it was so postulated. I think that's on the tape where He talks about OTs working best with OTs.

This craziness still goes back to the case condition called narcissism.

3) All that "senior to" malarkey is born of service facsimiles.

4) Finding the truth about individual determinisms might be an impossible task -- except in subjective universes. This has been proven time and again in individual auditing sessions where a being has come to understand and/or appreciate something about its own perceptions and responses and causations.

In the objective universe(s), truth is not that clearcut. If it were I could look at an object or situation and make it go "Poof!" I cannot which tells me the objective universe is much more than an individual determinism can (or even should) deal with in such a manner. (Thanks to James Hare for bringing this to my attention many years ago.)

Believe me, I have tried over the years to "Poof" an object having been led on by hubbard's philosophical waxing about as-isness and handling MEST.

There is a duplication process in COHA that states the object being duplicated by the pc will vanish for the pc. It does not, or at least should not, vanish for the auditor. I hear of these stories of people on NOTs having vanished a meter or something for the auditor. I have a few things to say about that: The first is Bullshit! Where did the auditor go!? In an early PAB hubbard mentions the value in the physical universe being that it is a common reference point. Without it all is bank. Secondly, this might just be pc HGC masturbatory gossip or registrar wanking with hand in pc's pocket.

There is a question that leaves me wondering, "What sort of loss must this being have that it feels it needs to be total control over MEST?" It must be a tremendous loss or series of losses. (Thanks to J.C. Hughes for bringing that question and comment to my attention many years ago.) Look at the Effects deemed necessary to handle others on the Effect Scale. At 0.0 the Effect deemed is total and massive. At 0.0 the being isn't handling diddley-squat.

5) I can relate to that one. That's life, isn't it? Or maybe not.

Definition of a Dynamic is survival as or through...

As I was being run through the ringer yet one more time at WISE Int. I took a break from writing up Conditions and O/Ws to get some food or fresh air or anything but more browbeating. The more I was pressured, the more I found myself with serfac phenomena. Fuck! I had been through this years before. I knew what was causing it -- not a serfac from unflat Grade 4 or from some time track thing moving in. It was a present time thing, right there, right now.

So I took my break.

I was walking across the street when I suddenly realized that I was being an ED. And I was trying to survive as an ED. The more I was threatened the closer I clung to the identity. That would be my determination of ED, not anyone else's. In that instant I completely exteriorized from the "survival as or through." I just let it go. In that instant I became completely uncontrollable. I became my own person once again without any fight for control. I realized that the only way I could be controlled by anyone, by any outside force was to be identified and continue to be identified as something or someone I am fundamentally not. (Thank you Bob Held and Katie Tighe. I know that was not the EP you sought but it was a very special EP for me.)

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Good stuff, Ted...r-e-a-l G-o-o-d stuff!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Face:)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
If you were on the West coast and we were still having those monthly coffee clatches which we had, perhaps Mark Baker or I could help you regain your balance or Sweetness and Light could recommend some sort of home remedy. Down in Florida or in Ohio, I believe Ted is our agent for the Eastern U.S. Ted is writing consistently the finest posts of any of us on the Apollo thread right now. Were'nt you two scheduling a lunch get together? Maybe he can recommend a hormone balancing technique to you. He has the answers for virtually everything else, why not that as well?
Gary

Yep!:yes:
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Excellent summary of the way it was!

I came in on reading books on my own, watching my friends having fun, then routed onto the HAS course. The HAS consisted of TRs OT-TR-0 through TR-9. The TRs were done as tough as the student could take it. I would guess that most students blew off TR-0. The ones that graduated went on to other courses and auditing.

Typically the next course was HQS. In early 1974 I trained at ASHO on the Mini Supervisor's Course and the HQS Specialists Course on weekends. Both were virtually identical courses with minor differences. Nevertheless, I trained on them back to back with my twin who is, to this day, one of my best friends. During the week we twinned on the Academy Levels at the San Diego Org.

At the mission we ran an exciting course room on weekday evenings applying everything that we were learning on the weekends and during the day. At its height we had co-audits going all over the mission and the neighborhood -- objectives, op pro by dup, SA lists, Dianetics. Enid Vien was the C/S. It was due to her technical guidance that everyone did so well. Today you can find her at www.dynamism.org.

This is when Adams Ave. was actually on Adams Ave. in a little storefront. The TRs chairs, a dozen of them, were set up by the storefront picture window. The customers from the Laundromat next store would often stop to observe the goings-on inside the course room. We had no embarrassment over the crazy stuff we were doing. While the TRs were interesting, I think it must have been doll drills that seemed most bizarre.

This is really a comment on the value of a limited, directive lineup.

From HQS it followed naturally that a student went onto the Student Hat. Then they went onto HSDC if they were still around. Those who could afford it just went to professional auditing. The rest of us continued to co-audit. Co-auditing was encouraged. It was all done for free. Cramming was free. C/S time was free. Ethics, in a limited sense as compared to today, was free.

Between people recognizing some personal gain out of their efforts, gaining new friends, and having a lot of fun jacked up by the idea that we were doing something very worthwhile for the planet as a whole, people found their place and they stayed for years.

On a BC tape LRH mentioned that you can practically destroy an org by putting attention on a downstat area. The downstat area of this limited lineup that, to the best of my knowledge, many of the successful missions used suffered a high attrition rate.

Around 1980 LRH wrote a PL on Div 6 services stating that there needed to be a lot of avenues for a new person to get onto the bridge. A lot of different courses were invented to satisfy that idea. None of these courses led to auditor training except for Div 6 intro and co-audit which was buried in the mix. The Success Through Communication Course originated during this time.

The course is fine in terms of teaching mechanics. It sucks in terms of training in toughness. It is toughness, willingness and ability to confront, that leads to success through communication. Minus the confront and control a student would attain on the HAS and HQS Courses, the STCC is but a ghost.

I was around at about the same time you were Ted and agree that with the line up of a strong intro lecture, HAS, HQS, then the Student Hat, the Orgs were vibrant places, exciting to be at an expanding. The prices were not out of line, $25 to $50 for HAS, maybe $100 for HQS, I forgot what the Student Hat cost but it had those very entertaining and interesting study tapes on it. Certainly it must have cost beween $250 to $500 so for around $600 a person could be on course evenings or weekends for a year.

The fellowship was just excellent. Lots of absolutely beautiful single women and handsome men, mostly a cut or two above the average person on the street in terms of awareness and abilility. Celebrity Centre had the added advantage of having nightly shows, 7 days a week for free. These shows were not only good but they were excellent - easily the equivlent in quality to a top Vegas lounge show. Anyone from AOLA or the L.A. Org could walk over to CC to catch a show, it was only 2 or 3 blocks from those orgs. ASHO was away from the other orgs up on Temple St., maybe a 4 mile drive, 10 minutes by car.

When I was on Staff, Ken Wasserman took over supervising the HQS Course and put his own brand on being a course Supervisor. The course balooned up to 100 people and kept at that level for month after month. Even in those Halcyon days, very few people moved from HQS on to Auditor Training or to receiving Processing in the HGC (Hubbard Guidance Centre). At the staff meetings, Yvonne and the Execs often spent time trying to figure out how to get a high percentage of the HQS grads to move on to training and processing. Before Kitty came, I was attending those meetings as Treasury Sec in Training and later attended them as Treasury Org Officer.

Only about 4 or 5 % of the HQS graduates continued on Org services. The rest figured that they know knew Scientology and liked it and used their TR's and touch assists out in Life and they just fell of lines.

All of us tried to devise ways to keep the majority of those people on lines and get them to take major services. Some people thought it was Kenny Wasserman's personality that attracted so many people. The Execs could not admit that to be the case. A junior course supervisor could not be cited as a major cause of success, it had to be course content and LRH as per policy. Kenny definitely had something to do with it. If he would have been able to reg the person for the next level, I bet he could have got from 10% to 20% to sign for a major service. Kenny was the opinion leader of the HQS students, many of whom were up and coming young actors and actresses at CCLA. The main registrar was Hector who was excellent as a reg but he was not the student's opiniion leader.

No one ever thought up a way to increase that 4 to 5% figure any higher.
Fun and games in the early to mid 1970's in the Orgs.
Lakey
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
I was around at about the same time you were Ted and agree that with the line up of a strong intro lecture, HAS, HQS, then the Student Hat, the Orgs were vibrant places, exciting to be at an expanding. The prices were not out of line, $25 to $50 for HAS, maybe $100 for HQS, I forgot what the Student Hat cost but it had those very entertaining and interesting study tapes on it. Certainly it must have cost beween $250 to $500 so for around $600 a person could be on course evenings or weekends for a year.

The fellowship was just excellent. Lots of absolutely beautiful single women and handsome men, mostly a cut or two above the average person on the street in terms of awareness and abilility. Celebrity Centre had the added advantage of having nightly shows, 7 days a week for free. These shows were not only good but they were excellent - easily the equivlent in quality to a top Vegas lounge show. Anyone from AOLA or the L.A. Org could walk over to CC to catch a show, it was only 2 or 3 blocks from those orgs. ASHO was away from the other orgs up on Temple St., maybe a 4 mile drive, 10 minutes by car.

When I was on Staff, Ken Wasserman took over supervising the HQS Course and put his own brand on being a course Supervisor. The course balooned up to 100 people and kept at that level for month after month. Even in those Halcyon days, very few people moved from HQS on to Auditor Training or to receiving Processing in the HGC (Hubbard Guidance Centre). At the staff meetings, Yvonne and the Execs often spent time trying to figure out how to get a high percentage of the HQS grads to move on to training and processing. Before Kitty came, I was attending those meetings as Treasury Sec in Training and later attended them as Treasury Org Officer.

Only about 4 or 5 % of the HQS graduates continued on Org services. The rest figured that they know knew Scientology and liked it and used their TR's and touch assists out in Life and they just fell of lines.

All of us tried to devise ways to keep the majority of those people on lines and get them to take major services. Some people thought it was Kenny Wasserman's personality that attracted so many people. The Execs could not admit that to be the case. A junior course supervisor could not be cited as a major cause of success, it had to be course content and LRH as per policy. Kenny definitely had something to do with it. If he would have been able to reg the person for the next level, I bet he could have got from 10% to 20% to sign for a major service. Kenny was the opinion leader of the HQS students, many of whom were up and coming young actors and actresses at CCLA. The main registrar was Hector who was excellent as a reg but he was not the student's opiniion leader.

No one ever thought up a way to increase that 4 to 5% figure any higher.
Fun and games in the early to mid 1970's in the Orgs.

Lakey


Minus fun and games, there was no reason to stay on lines unless you had bought into the idea of Clear and OT. Me, I wanted to see if it was bullshit or what? So I stayed around having fun and meeting new folks.

In hindsight I can see that forcing, demanding, or otherwise directing people to scientology's perceived path to its perceived enlightenment and ability was rather organizational narcissistic of itself. We have the answers. Only we know the route, etc.

A good reg would find out what the person's interests, problems, difficulties, concerns, etc. were and suggest a course or auditing would help them to address that. If auditing was the solution, the info arrived at the DofP, C/S, and auditor. We delivered a lot of Life Repairs. That is still some of the most enjoyable and effective auditing I have ever done. It addressed what the pc really wanted to handle. Programs were individualized. Even if the Life Repair did not address the difficulty in its entirety, the Life Repair at least took the edge off much to the pc's pleasure.

As I recall, the student was treated differently. He just arrived on course. Why? Sometimes you would find out in two-way communication, sometimes not.

I suspect that as long as the organization and the student/pc's participation in it is helping the student/pc to achieve goals, purposes, overcome difficulties, etc. the student/pc will stay with it. When the organization's self-importance parallels the student/pc's needs-wants, the student/pc will stay with it. When there is no longer a meeting of the minds, the student/pc no longer perceives the need to invest his time, energy, effort, and money.

Some years ago I worked in the career search management industry. Clients were brought in for a specific reason. We trained them. We consulted them into new, mo' betta' career positions. Even with this controlled and agreed target, there were some, a small percentage, who did not stick.

What do people want today? Mo' money, good sex, better relationships,... What are they upset about? Same stuff. Same as 1970. I think it would be easier for me today to keep people on track, :thumbsup: but that would be a track of their lives, not the track of the bridge and scientology's self-importance.
:no:
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
The indoc line in the ‘60’s and ‘70’s made auditors and appealed to “techies”, “hands on” pioneer types. Over the years the line was changed to make PC’s and appeal to “culties”, wannabees and “status seeker” types.

A whole bunch of good stuff that was done by folks like Enid Vien, in places like Adams Avenue, was torn to tatters by the predatory El Ron KSW hit squad culture of the SO.

Face:)
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

Even in those Halcyon days, very few people moved from HQS on to Auditor Training or to receiving Processing in the HGC (Hubbard Guidance Centre). At the staff meetings, Yvonne and the Execs often spent time trying to figure out how to get a high percentage of the HQS grads to move on to training and processing. Before Kitty came, I was attending those meetings as Treasury Sec in Training and later attended them as Treasury Org Officer.

Only about 4 or 5 % of the HQS graduates continued on Org services. The rest figured that they now knew Scientology and liked it and used their TR's and touch assists out in Life and they just fell of lines.

-snip-

Is that what they told you?

Most politely backed away from Scientology, thinking, "That was interesting, but it is a nutty cult, so I'm not going back there!"

These folks were seeing something that the enthusiastic applauders of Ron's photo couldn't.

And, psst, it was a nutty cult, even then.
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
The indoc line in the ‘60’s and ‘70’s made auditors and appealed to “techies”, “hands on” pioneer types. Over the years the line was changed to make PC’s and appeal to “culties”, wannabees and “status seeker” types.

A whole bunch of good stuff that was done by folks like Enid Vien, in places like Adams Avenue, was torn to tatters by the predatory El Ron KSW hit squad culture of the SO.

Face:)


I will say more about that as I write. For now let me just say that I suspect one key reason the joyful, productive Adams Ave. floundered is its connection to Flag and a wrong PTS item. This came years before Finance Police were conjured from His cauldron.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
No one told me, I was there living it!

Is that what they told you?

Nope! I observed that to be the case. I was over at the Centre often and talked to many of the public in the snack bar area. A lot of people loved being on the HQS course and thought many of the principles were sound and made sense. One thing was certain, the course was a lot of fun and many were using it as a social venue to pick up people for dating or to make business contacts. Making business contacts was frowned on while on Org property but some of that was done after course in coffee shops.

Most politely backed away from Scientology, thinking, "That was interesting, but it is a nutty cult, so I'm not going back there!"

To be objective, there were "some" but not "many" who behaved as you state above. I don't know the exact percentages. I remember one young woman, quite attractive, who was having some serious problems in life. I talked to her down at the the snack bar and the first couple of days she was having "wins". I had not yet joined staff so I asked her out. She told me she already had a boyfriend. She told me she was going to bring her boyfriend down and have him check the place out. The next day he showed up. I believe he was an attorney. He was extremely concerned about her being there. I talked to him and he said that I appeared to be sincere but I had better wise up because I was being brain washed and would probably eventually get hurt. He insisted that it was a cult. He had his girlfriend quit the course and demand her money back. She was on a routing form for about 2 days and got her $100 back. She was very nervous doing this and she talked to me while on her routing form. She thanked me for befriending her and said she felt that Scn had some good principles but her boyfriend insisted it was a cult, practicing medicine without a license, etc. I told her that she should at least finish the course and that her boyfriend was a "Suppressive Person". I said that once she got her refund, she would be banned from taking any further Scientology services. She chose her refund and moved on.

These folks were seeing something that the enthusiastic applauders of Ron's photo couldn't.

And, psst, it was a nutty cult, even then.

I believe that some of these folks were seeing something that the enthusiastic applauders couldn't but that some were just paranoid and automatically assummed that anything non main stream and not sanctioned by the AMA or the APA (American Psychiatric Association) was underhanded and evil. My point of disagreement with you is that EVEN IF SCIENTOLOGY WOULD HAVE BEEN PRISTINE AS HUBBARD AND HIS FOLLOWERS CLAIMED IT WAS, MOST OF THOSE WHO QUIT WOULD HAVE QUIT ANYWAY

Any kind of cross which was not Christian or any kind of therapy not sanctioned by the AMA or APA, automatically keyed in unsavory groups or cults from their past experiences and their tendency was to fear such groups. Please get what I am saying. I admit that Hubbard's group, even then, was a cult BUT HAD IT NOT BEEN A CULT AND HAD BEEN AN HONEST GROUP DEDICATED TO HELPING PEOPLE GET BETTER, those that left would have left anyway. Most of them were not logical and discerning as you are infering, most were just scared off by the unorthodox symbols and rituals and the fact that the Organization was not mainstream.

Of course there were a handful of people of wisdom and keen perception who were able to spot deception and they left for the reasons which you cite but I believe those people were small in numbers, perhaps 5-10% of those who quit were in this category while 90%-95% were merely nervous and frightened and would have left any such group, even an honest one.
Lakey
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
I believe that some of these folks were seeing something that the enthusiastic applauders couldn't but that some were just paranoid and automatically assummed that anything non main stream and not sanctioned by the AMA or the APA (American Psychiatric Association) was underhanded and evil. My point of disagreement with you is that EVEN IF SCIENTOLOGY WOULD HAVE BEEN PRISTINE AS HUBBARD AND HIS FOLLOWERS CLAIMED IT WAS, MOST OF THOSE WHO QUIT WOULD HAVE QUIT ANYWAY

Any kind of cross which was not Christian or any kind of therapy not sanctioned by the AMA or APA, automatically keyed in unsavory groups or cults from their past experiences and their tendency was to fear such groups. Please get what I am saying. I admit that Hubbard's group, even then, was a cult BUT HAD IT NOT BEEN A CULT AND HAD BEEN AN HONEST GROUP DEDICATED TO HELPING PEOPLE GET BETTER, those that left would have left anyway. Most of them were not logical and discerning as you are infering, most were just scared off by the unorthodox symbols and rituals and the fact that the Organization was not mainstream.

Of course there were a handful of people of wisdom and keen perception who were able to spot deception and they left for the reasons which you cited but I believe those people were small in numbers, perhaps 5 - 10% of all who left early were in this category while 90% - 95% were merely nervous and frightened and would have left any such group, even an honest one.
Lakey


FWIW, Lakey, I agree with your assessment.

:yes:
 

Veda

Sponsor
Too bad you guys weren't more aggressive in seeing to it that these resistive humanoids were given Green Form 40s.
 

Mike Goldstein

Patron with Honors
(SNIP) "It reminds me of Mike Goldstein's story of his Book I seminars course. Diana Hubbard asked Mike to develop a grass roots Book 1 Co Audit type of course. Mike got old timer John Galusha to help him develop the course and piloted it very successsfully in the Denver area. Diana saw the results in Denver and wanted Mike and John to put on the course at Flag.

Make did so, everything went fine for a day or two and then S.O. reps started showing up to view the course. They did not like what they saw! People actually making gains and helping others to make gains while spending very little money. Without even notifying Mike, they altered his course to a more traditional C of S type of affair. High prices, dangling carrots on a stick in front of the prospects, and crush regging to move up from Book 1 auditing to other services. What happened to Mike, I believe he got comm eved. Mike just quit C of S at that point and set up his own delivery system which developed later into Idenics. I hope I have this story right - Its all from memory."


Not really accurate, Gary. But one can read the story on the ESMB Web site. The New Regime Takeover series, and Life After the CoS series, both published there, give an account of what actually occurred.

Mike Goldstein
 
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afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Begin Rant

I will say more about that as I write. For now let me just say that I suspect one key reason the joyful, productive Adams Ave. floundered is its connection to Flag and a wrong PTS item. This came years before Finance Police were conjured from His cauldron.

The Missions were being KSW targeted and F’d with long before the Finance Police were created to deliver the coup de grace. I'm interested in your take on the Adams Avenue story when you have time.

Missions like Adams Avenue were the major business source for FSO services. The complete insanity of Senior SO “Management” staggered me regarding the Mission Network in the ‘70’s. I knew that the Missions were the heart and soul of the Scn “Empire” and knew what to do and how to do it re: expansion. Everything in the inner bowels of the SO was all about “Source”, KSW, “we’re right and the rest of them are wrong”, and all Scientologists are “our subjects” and all Students and PC’s “belong to us”.

When I was running Class IV Orgs there were some very simple actions I learned that really worked, I got a lot of heat for from “up lines” and, even though I had to weather near daily "fire fights" with Flag Reps, Programs Chiefs and FBO's, only got away with it because the stats, on trend, were very healthy

1. The Missions and the Mission Holders are your friends. Help them, keep them informed, be responsive to their needs, respect them and, personally, pay attention to and “watch out for” their public when at the Org.

2. FSM’s are your friends. Help them, Hat them, be responsive to their needs, respect them, pay attention to them and watch out for their selectee’s best interests. A person brought in buy an FSM is 5 times more likely to sign up for indoc courses and 3 times as likely to resign after them.

3. The personality, energy, appearance and attitude of your Basic Course Sups are the most important factors in the size and success of your indoc course rooms.

4. Never allow recruiting of Basic Course Students. Give folks time to “settle in”, make progress, get to “know” them and vice-versa. A person that’s had some training and been around awhile makes a better staff member and sooner than a green horn. Also, FSM’s get frustrated when their selectee’s are, in essence, ripped off.

5. Build a sense of “community”. Have things like Sunday “Potluck Dinners” for staff and public with no agenda, lecture, reging or recruiting…just fellowship and fun.

6. During Basic Course Breaks all available staff, including me, were assigned to visit and 2WC with the Newbies. No sales pitches, no out-reality blabber and “Scientologeze”, etc…just visit. The staff loved it and so did the Newbies. We got to a point where often times there were more Newbies than staff. Every staff member involved turned in a brief report to me re: who they talked to and the gist of the conversation. From this list I could detect problems, “orchestrate” subsequent break chats and “guide” pathways. One example of a problem is a student we had once that said that if something worthwhile didn’t happen soon he wasn’t gonna finish the course. I was able to clue the Sup in and, sure enough, this guy was twinned with a real f’d up stoner. I called the guy's FSM and they rushed over to the Org, twinned with the guy for the rest of the night and the next night, and 4 months later that student was on the HSDC Internship. Another time my DofP turned in a report that the person they talked to was really interested in the e-meter and being and Auditor. Next night at course break I set up for the DofP to introduce the Snr C/S—not the reg—to chat with them during break. One week later the student bought an e-meter, all the books and materials and a full Academy /Internships package. This person’s FSM, who we made sure was kept abreast of things, was deliriously happy and just couldn’t wait to bring someone else to the Org. On another occasion, a person from a Mission on the Cl IV Internship originated to me that they were considering buying their Solo/SHBC Package. I knew ASHO and AO, dropped a few names and told a story or two about the “old days” (late 60’s). I then went back to my office, called the Mission Holder, who was OT 7EP, Cl VIII and told them about the conversation. We worked out that I would do the “Deal” with his public (the Msn was also the guys FSM) in my office with the Mission Holder on the phone. He wound up, without pressure and “Hard Sell” paying through OT 7 and Cl VIII with a promised job at the Mission when he was done, if he wanted. The Mission got some good goodies, we got a few small goodies, ASHO and AO got the cake and I gave the Mission the kudos. I don't know where he is today but I know that in the late '70's he was an CLVIII C/S.

Now, I’m not making a statement here that is all pro El Ron and the “Tech”—I’ve written much on this thread and board as to where I stand on all that. My point is simply that it’s not all that hard to build a nice little Org and Field when you care about people, want for them to do well and treat them with respect—including your staff. What is hard, is to do all that while being threatened, bull baited and hounded by stat pushing, desperate and clueless Senior “Management” and "Gestapo Think” Networks.

The biggest problems in running an Org, for me, were that:

A. Staff were broke, starving, exhausted (many had to moonlight to survive) and their personal life was a neglected shambles.

B. Most Staff were not getting what they were so dedicatedly protecting, selling and delivering.

C. Staff were hounded, pounded, threatened and brutalized by SO “Management” and Networks and immediate Seniors that were indoctrinated, ordered and coerced by them to do same.

And El Ron El Rey, being the sick F’er Hisself was, set it up that way and knew damn well how it was and what it was.

During the mid to late ‘70’s it became obvious to me that El Ron was not “serious”; that El Ron was only pretending to play the game I thought Hisself was playing, that El Ron had said Hisself was playing; that El Ron didn't give a shit about the rest of Us. By that time I’d seen enough, been "around" enough, been at the "top” and on the "inside" long enough, and had enough information that it was obvious what needed to be done to play “long ball” and consolidate the position of “Planetary Scientology”. There was times multiple more than enough dough in SO Reserves and flooding in every month at the FSO in the late ‘70’s to design, prepare for and then call a 6 month “Stand Down”, restructure Org staffs and SO with increased compensation, improved Org quarters, facilities and equipment, realign postings, hire needed experience and talent, streamline and simplify policy, focus the energy on the "lower bridge", clean up, crash train and drill everyone, then “restart”. Nearly every Scio would have pitched in to help a project like that, and the resultant espirit de corp and pride would have "filled the sails" for a generation.

End Rant.

Face:)
 
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Hatshepsut

Crusader
If you were on the West coast and we were still haviong those monthly coffee clatches which we had, perhaps Mark Baker or I could help you regain your balance or Sweetness and Light could recommend some sort of home remedy. Down in Florida or in Ohio, I believe Ted is our agent for the Eastern U.S. Ted is writing consistently the finest posts of any of us on the Apollo thread right now. Were'nt you two scheduling a lunch get together? Maybe he can recommend a hormone balancing technique to you. He has the answers for virtually everything else, why not that as well?
Gary
:thumbsup:

I'm still in Ohio making plans to escape.

FoTi sent me a link to a health source provider. I'm trying to navigate the site.

I do miss the get togethers we used to have in Orlando where I got to bring all the bakery on Sundays and later we'd retire to the chapel and______tell jokes. :clap:
 
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