1st Hand LRH Stories: Marty is Terrified of ESMB

FinallyMe · Oct 29, 2010

Ladybird said:
Oh Really??? I think the majority of the members here are scientology apologists or fans. Most of the EX-scientologists have been banned or are outposted by those who still believe or never were in.

Wow! Where'd you come up with THAT one???????

Guys - is there something you're not telling us? Alanzo? Panda? Programmer? Noz? Bea? Etc etc etc?????

afaceinthecrowd · Oct 29, 2010

Magoo · Oct 29, 2010

I guess I'm part of the "etc etc" here?

Oh well, so be it (or bea it: JOKE!)

Yeah---for both Markus and LB--that one is a bit over the top for me, too. Too big a broad stroke tends to piss people off, as it lacks specifics, and paints everyone together. Both mistakes, I've learned over the years.

I do believe posting can be something some people (self included) need to learn the ins and outs of. I'm still learning, and do thank you all for being here, posting, sharing. What a wild ride this has been, and still is!

I truly like many of the "Indies" I know, and wish them well. (Although some of the endless adoration was just too much for me, sounding just like the old "hip-hip-hooray" days while "in", so I rarely read that site).
It isn't my intention to upset them, however, same as when I was "in", now I wish a few people had brought
a few KEY things to my attention, earlier. Unfortunately,
even so, often you're too "in it" to hear. It's a question I constantly ask myself: Does one's world have to get upset,
to WTFU? I think so, sorry to say. (Learning facts about L. Ron Hubbard didn't upset me, by the time I learned them---but I'd done 10 years of stripping off the mind control, while still "in", so that helped, greatly). I *think* it's a gentle dance or perhaps much stronger. Thanks to the Net, there are many varieties one can choose from!

When in doubt, communicate, is my motto, taught by
Paul Christman, (my Dad) years before Scientology, to me. He also taught me some excellent lessons re bullies, which has helped me make it, when pounded on, needlessly. :yes:

Re M & M--and they being terrified of ESMB, I'm not sure that is true. I don't think they want their "gang" infected by FACTS that just may help them move along, and that's something each person has to cope with, look at, and honestly decide: Do they want to be in *another* group, no matter how "nice", that again is filtering their own views, knowledge, facts?
Some will say, "We don't care"---Hey! That was my line,
back when I was "handling" the critics, when still "in".
They would dish out facts about Hubbard, and with full Plexiglas from head to toe, back then still "in", I would say:
"I don't care---I'm happy". :eyeroll:

Thus I call it the Scio-Truman show. For those who were "in" the C of $ Truman show, now out as "Independent Scientologists"--- please make sure another one isn't created out here, where filters are placed at every turn, to ensure your "happiness" (Their--really still L.Ron Hubbard's- control). And to M & M, it's your responsibility, I believe,
to make sure people are free to know all the facts. That (stopping of free flow of info) is literally what has killed C of $. Why would anyone want to adopt
*that* again? Ok, it's their site. True. And this is the Net, where the greatest part of it IS facts can be learned, quite easily.

My question is this: Why (if "The tech" is so great) can't people know ALL of the facts re Hubbard? Why NOT? "Suppression"? :bs:

You already lived through that, and left! Didn't you decide,
in one form or another, *I* want *my* life back? As Emma has said, she runs her board as she does, Marty has a right to run his as he wants. This is true.
However for me, IF I see them being led (or Marty still running the same, bad tricks from Hubbard) on people I like---I'd like to point that out, at least.
They have every right to stay, not think about my questions, or anyone else's here, OR possibly LOOK at them. That's all I ask. They're grown adults, but so was I when I stayed and stayed, forking out $$$ ---over $100,000 to Flag, believing it would help me, when there was zero chance, even per "the tech" of Hubbard, in my case.

For those exposing each and every fact, experience (good and bad) and abuse, I thank you for that, and sharing your experiences. Each one helps!

My two cents: Love you all :rose:

Tory/Magoo

Dulloldfart · Oct 29, 2010

FinallyMe said:
Wow! Where'd you come up with THAT one???????

Guys - is there something you're not telling us? Alanzo? Panda? Programmer? Noz? Bea? Etc etc etc?????

Not that I'm aware of. I think it's a Planet Ladybird thing.

Etc

afaceinthecrowd · Oct 29, 2010

Magoo said:
I guess I'm part of the "etc etc" here? Oh well, so be it (or bea it: JOKE!)

Yeah---for both Markus and LB--that one is a bit over the top for me, too. Too big a broad stroke tends to piss people off, as it lacks specifics, and paints everyone together. Both mistakes, I've learned over the years.

I do believe posting can be something some people (self included) need to learn the ins and outs of. I'm still learning, and do thank you all for being here, posting, sharing. What a wild ride this has been, and still is!

I truly like many of the "Indies" I know, and wish them well. (Although some of the endless adoration was just too much for me, sounding just like the old "hip-hip-hooray" days while "in", so I rarely read that site).
It isn't my intention to upset them, however, same as when I was "in", now I wish a few people had brought
a few KEY things to my attention, earlier. Unfortunately,
even so, often you're too "in it" to hear. It's a question I constantly ask myself: Does one's world have to get upset,
to WTFU? I think so, sorry to say. (Learning facts about L. Ron Hubbard didn't upset me, by the time I learned them---but I'd done 10 years of stripping off the mind control, while still "in", so that helped, greatly). I *think* it's a gentle dance or perhaps much stronger. Thanks to the Net, there are many varieties one can choose from!

When in doubt, communicate, is my motto, taught by
Paul Christman, (my Dad) years before Scientology, to me. He also taught me some excellent lessons re bullies, which has helped me make it, when pounded on, needlessly.

Re M & M--and they being terrified of ESMB, I'm not sure that is true. I don't think they want their "gang" infected by FACTS that just may help them move along, and that's something each person has to cope with, look at, and honestly decide: Do they want to be in *another* group, no matter how "nice", that again is filtering their own views, knowledge, facts?
Some will say, "We don't care"---Hey! That was my line,
back when I was "handling" the critics, when still "in".
They would dish out facts about Hubbard, and with full Plexiglas from head to toe, back then still "in", I would say:
"I don't care---I'm happy".

Thus I call it the Scio-Truman show. For those who were "in" the C of $ Truman show, now out as "Independent Scientologists"--- please make sure another one isn't created out here, where filters are placed at every turn, to ensure your "happiness" (Their control).

For those exposing each and every fact, experience (good and bad) and abuse, I thank you for that, and sharing your experiences. Each one helps!

My two cents: Love you all

Tory/Magoo

BTW...I spent many a Sunday listening to your dad breaking down the plays and the game. I was a big fan. He was one of the best "Color Men" ever was or will be, IMO. :yes:

Face

afaceinthecrowd · Oct 29, 2010

Alanzo said:
A stadium full of cheers erupts from this quarter of the world for this post, and this poster.

Take a victory lap, Face.

You hit the nail on the head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqMhU64HMUA&NR=1

nozeno · Oct 29, 2010

FinallyMe said:
Wow! Where'd you come up with THAT one???????

Guys - is there something you're not telling us? Alanzo? Panda? Programmer? Noz? Bea? Etc etc etc?????

OK I admit it.

I love L Ron Hubbard.

Zinjifar · Oct 29, 2010

nozeno said:
OK I admit it.

I love L Ron Hubbard.

Get thee to the pro-station

Zinj

Atalantan · Oct 29, 2010

afaceinthecrowd said:
Atalantan,

You and Alonzo are making some very refined and valuable contributions.

Your description of the “Socratic Method” however is inaccurate, incomplete and misleading.

Simply put, the “Socratic Method” is a style of inquiry, dialogue and debate between individuals of opposing viewpoints. The example that you have given as the “Socratic Method” is a common pop misnomer re: Socrates.

In Socrates’ Dialogue with Meno about the nature of virtue the concourse of the Dialogue leads to the subject of learning and the nature of knowledge. Socrates used Meno’s uneducated slave to prove, via the use of question and answer only, that the slave already knew how to solve a complex Geometry problem.

Socrates point was that some knowledge is innate within us all, that the “soul” already knows or has learned before but does not “know” it knows. As an aside, my study and experience with the truth of this proof was one of the things that got me interested in Scn and the “Tech” in the first place.

Although Socrates’ Q&A inquiry process is popularly thought to be the Socratic Method, the actuality is that ESMB—and this thread—is more closely akin to the Socratic Method than the other Blogs and Boards. That, in part, is why I am here and why I enjoy being here with all y’all.

"The unexamined life is not worth living." Socrates of Athens

Face

I appreciate the fine-tuning you provided here.

I guess I picked up the misdefinition of "Socratic method" from hanging around with psychotherapist type people.

I did mean it as a mostly non-directive style of interaction used by many therapists, in which questions are sometimes reflected back to the questioner. The old "That's a good question. What do you think?" tactic.

It does seem like a derivative of the Socratic method as you describe it, perhaps a gentler one because it does not involve any antagonism. It is designed to avoid conflict and get the person thinking for himself.

Magoo · Oct 29, 2010

Thanks, Face for the :thumbsup:

re my post

Re

BTW...I spent many a Sunday listening to your dad breaking down the plays and the game. I was a big fan. He was one of the best "Color Men" ever was or will be, IMO.

Face

How fantastic! Wasn't he just the best? I mean it, when he passed away, I cannot tell you how many people came, wrote, and to this day tell me stories of my Dad. Gratefully I thank them, as losing him at 22, I missed many stories most kids would hear later.

Thanks, Face--that's REALLY fun for me! Did you know
"Magoo" was HIS Nickname, I gave him when little (due to his tiny eyes, and his fun sense of humor)? He *loved* Laurel and Hardy as an example and we used to watch their shows, laughing all the way through. Jackie Gleason, too. He loved to laugh. :roflmao:

When I was waking up--and made those 4,000 posts on
ARS in 4 weeks, (right around/before my escape in July of 2000) I had to come up with a nick. Since I felt like I could feel my Dad's courage--and he saying "Do it!"---re looking, I created a name: MistMagoo55 (as Magoo was taken at the time, I think)

"Magoo" ended up sticking, and I always feel him near, or at least his strength and courage, and wisdom, too.

Just a little bit about my Dad, Paul Christman:
All American for Missouri University and in the Football
Hall of Fame.
#44 Quarterback for the Chicago Cardinals
(and he played one year for the Packers, too)
and yes, broadcast as you mentioned, on NBC, with Curt
Gowdy in the 60's. That's my Dad :thumbsup:

Lots of love and fun ...it's Halloween time! :omg:

Terril park · Oct 29, 2010

afaceinthecrowd said:
Terril,

I believe that you have read my posts on the “Apollo ‘73” thread re: my permanent brain damage and why I have limits in the amount that I can read and write in a day.

Please post a link for the posts you made re: Sarge so that I don’t have to wade through all the fluff and flitter over there. I read his Blog but have grown weary of reading the commentary.

I always endeavor to choose my words thoughtfully and edit my posts judiciously. Obviously, I most woefully lack clarity in comparison to many others on this board, but I do my best. More times than not I make errors I don’t catch during my process and have to go back and correct my posts. I never “Censor” nor try to make “Acceptable” anything I write. I do try to be clear, concise and cogent in whatever I wish to post.

I am not going to post on Marty’s Blog. I don’t have the time or the inclination to tap dance with Marty, Jim Logan, Jackson, Sarge and my former “shipmates” of their ilk over there. What I have to say, I say here where nearly anyone in the world that has interest may find and read my words, and anyone that wishes to may challenge, ridicule, comment on or agree with me. I’m here for open dialogue, learning and sharing (and horsing around) and have no ox to protect from being gored.

One of the reasons I walked away from the SO and, eventually, from Scn was my utter disgust and revulsion with the Who’s and the What’s that Marty knowingly and willingly with blatant awareness of so steadfastly protected, supported and actively contributed to for decades. I am not shocked at what all this Scn tragedy has come to—I saw it coming over 20 years ago when I walked away when it was obvious that “It” was never gonna change and was only gonna get worse and no one could stop “It”.

You’re a sure enough good feller, Terril. I like you and, regardless of anything anyone has posted on ESMB, I respect you. I accept your invitation to visit your FZ private forum. I will do so in the next month or so and, if it’s alright with you, will PM you before I do so.

FWIW, here’s my main problem with the concept that “Marty is expanding”; Marty, IMO, is adapting and consolidating. The way I see things “Expansion” and “Contraction” is a ruse; “Capture" and "Release” is the goose; Marty is all about “Capture” and ESMB is all about “Release”.

Cheers,

Face

Well you are more lucid than many who have no brain damage and many
whose brain damage is yet to be diagnosed.

By " Marty expanding" I meant in his horizons.

Here are some of my posts with some others comments.

The final URL from an early Dianeticist is quite fascinating.

==========
Terril Park | October 26, 2010 at 10:56 pm | Reply

Brendon:-
“For all the dirt people like you have claimed to witness, I never hear any of the Independents bring up anything about LRH’s dirt.”

Not really true. The independents in general are not into criticising
LRH as a mainstream part of their activity. I’ll just quote two examples that I think are important. You may have seen the first interview with Phil Spickler, and he bursts into tears at the loss of his group, and the wrong directions LRH took and the loss of his friends including … ….LRH. Phil worked with LRH in the founding church in the fifties and loved LRH. Some of his archived posts on the Ivy forum, best accessed on Alt Clearing technology, are sometimes
much more caustic on the path taken by COS when LRH was where the buck stops.

Ken Urquhart worked directly with LRH for a decade, and loved him. But on his blog he gives a similar view to Phils, that LRH took a wrong path. Both of these estimable beings still use LRH tech and audit. I feel truly priviledged to have met them.

This area reminds me of part of the conversation when I met Marty in London. He asked what was my relationship to LRH. I said I didn’t have one, I had a relationship to the tech.

LRH? I’ll quote the final lines of the Movie ” A touch of evil”
directed and starring Orson Welles, and Marlene Deitritch, and she said ” He was some kind of a man.”

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1063401631293
Terril Park | October 26, 2010 at 11:36 pm | Reply

========================
TP
Its been bandied around that LRH said the best way to make money is to start a religion. Being the story teller, humorous raconteur he was I think it likely he did say this. I know someone on the net, and a real life friend of a close friend who testifies he said that at a sci-fi convention. Wouldn’t suprise me. But all this was I believe later than events recorded below by an expert Dianeticist, name forgotten, and was on Arnie Lerma’s website, [ or one of them?] read the complete comments recently.

This is a far more likely reason that LRH started a Church.
—————-
“Now, I must backtrack a bit. “Our” HDA was a Medicolegal Expert for
the State of California; Marshall Trout, PhD, MD, ScD, LID. A
brilliant man, a fine legal and medical scholar; he had been a
Superior Court Judge at one point, and preferred to be referred to as
“Judge Trout,” rather than “Doctor Trout.” His opinion of the Medical profession was not high. Scientology can really be blamed on him. One afternoon, while in conference with Hubbard, he being one of the two or three people for whom Ron had any real respect, he told Ron as follows; “If you in Dianetics go on curing Asthma and Arthritis and Bursitis and Cancer and Diabetes and all the other psychosomatic ills to which Humans fall prey, the AMA is going to come down on you for practicing medicine without a license, and we’ll all end up in jail;
the only way you’ll be safe is to make a Religion out of it! Also, the
primary, stated goal of the Religion can be Spiritual Healing, but not
Physical Healing; that can come as a result of your “Worship
Sessions,” but cannot be a stated purpose. Look into incorporating as
a Religion.” The rest, as they say, is History.”
------------
martyrathbun09 | October 27, 2010 at 3:16 am | Reply

WHo are you quoting T?
---------------
RJ | October 27, 2010 at 4:16 am | Reply

Oh come on Terril.

Its a bit more complicated than that.

http://www.aberree.com/v01/n01p01.html
Terril Park | October 27, 2010 at 12:02 pm | Reply

---------------
TP

I’m afraid this article is in effect only signed with initials,
and its where I took the quote from.

http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/carto/rxxx.htm

Someone who was around in these early days could easily identify this person from what has been written. Maybe someone on this blog can.

Clearly wherever the idea of designating Scn a religion came from
it was an excellent strategy, enabling auditors to audit without licencing, psychological training, and attacks from the AMA. For
me its perfectly valid to consider scientology a religion, and I do.

Terril park · Oct 29, 2010

Atalantan said:
1. No, they are mostly old-timers including people who trained under LRH and before DM. They are loyalists to "original scientology" tech. They are rabidly anti-GAT. They are no more ignorant than you. They like the same tech you like. Haven't yu been over there? Odd you wouldn't know that.

2. No it's true. No matter how much or how little he developed himself, he sorted it and packaged into the form in which they learned it.

4.My point is what I said. I think All is wasting his time if he's posting for the "newly out". They will find ESMB in short order anyway. He is not wasting his time if he actually wants the Martyites to come post here. If that's what he wants, he is going about it the wrong way.

5. You're out in out in left field on this one, pops. You're essentially calling Sarge, Karen, Ken, Phil, and many others who personally exprienced LRH's good side, liars and "deliberate fabricators". Is this really "right speech"?

I guess they will speak for themselves should they read your post and choose to respond. All I can say is, you really know how to win friends and influence people.

6. Portraying Hubbard as 100% evil with no redeeming qualities is not "spin"?

Sounds like demonization or agitprop to me.

9. Virtually all art "censors" fact. You seem to favor censoring anything positive about Hubbard.

How about Gandhi? Do you like Gandhi? He fell out of favor because of sex scandals concerning underage girls. He was alsoa racist and class conscious. Or should I say caste conscious? But that's OK with you, right?

I respectwhatI respect. Life is not all about facts and nothing but the facts. How dull! Unless it's the "bare facts, ma'am" Those "bare facts" can be pretty interesting....

I'm not talking about Marty coming over and posting. I'm talking about ALL of them.

If "the generality" really wished this, it would be simple. Emma would go over there and extend an open invitation to all Martyites to come on over anytime.

Would Marty post such an invite? Who knows? Would they come en masse. I doubt it, but some would. Karen has.

But that would be the way it might happen, not by Al skulking over and "infiltrating" and throwing in "thought grenades".... Did he learn how to win friends and influence people from you, perchance. ?

How odd!

Note that my Friend MAB is characterised by Veda as being in league with me to proliferate pro LRH tech with PR.

Clearly he takes no notice of my orders.

One point of disagreement is your statement that those newly out will find ESMB in short order. In a google of " scientology" it dosn't make the top 50,
though it may be found in other ways, but I don't think in short order.

Its puzzling that ESMB is not so easily found by new people. I suspect that " Martyites" are well acquainted with critical sites and forums. They just don't like them.

Markus · Oct 29, 2010

Emma said:
Most of the Ex Scios have been banned??? Really???

Who? Name a couple.

Marcus, I think you are a darling, but who are these "real" ex Scientologists? Just a couple of names would be good.

__________________

How can one be insulted by a true believer? I really don't see how it can be that way. You can disagree with someone or think their beliefs are strange or ignorant - but insulted? How?

It always astounds me that a percentage of people hate ESMB because we are too hard core critical, and another percentage hate us because we are too soft on FZers and Indies. Go Figure.

I guess its the ones who fall in the middle that belong and feel comfortable here.

I make no apologies for allowing all viewpoints. As I've always said - if you don't like it don't post here.

Emma I will not tell you any names here because these people told me this in PMs or e-mails. Well maybe my English is not good enough - maybe "insulted" was not the right word to choose. But I can tell you that it is hurting very deeply if you try to explain what this criminal organization did to your brother and your mum - your whole family and some people are trying to tell you here that you are a liar and that Ron was the greatest man on earth. And if you start to argue with this people you only get these ronbot answers - you know? One can be insulted by a true believer because this true believer is defending a trap set up by a mean and criminal man. In my opinion Scientology by far is no religion - it is a criminal organization created by a selfish and crazy evil man.

I'm not saying that you should have moderated all this better - for me you and your moderators did it in the exact right way. But I miss many of the Ex-Scientologists here - some of them just stopped to post on ESMB because they did not feel "at home" here any longer.
To use the word "real" was stupid. Every person is different - each one is on another part of his path.
I'm not hating these "true believers" - I simply see the huge danger for them, the people arround them and I think that they are trapped very deeply - it is so hard for my to watch this. Why was the life of Uwe destroyed? Why did my father disconnect from me simply because I wanted to find some answers about Uwes life and suffering in the Sea Org.

Thank you again for all you have done Emma :thumbsup:

Best
Markus

Terril park · Oct 29, 2010

For Blip the thread on "Unindoctrinate."

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=6782&highlight=unindoctrinate

Ogsonofgroo · Oct 29, 2010

I'm late in the thread i no but.... On topic to the OP and title, I do not think that Marty is terrified of ESMB, but it is a threat to his gathering of ex's because there are many ex's here who have chosen not to drink the Lron koolaids anymore, this threatens to undermine his following imho. Whether he believes his own stuff or not, he needs the validation of others (as per his own words/actions within his blog), so anyone promoting looking outside the system is to be avoided, anyone demeaning the 'godly works of LRon', is scum that cuts into his bottom line. I do not often directly deride the man, I do not agree with him, I probably would not like him much in real life unless I got him really drunk, but he has a porpoise in the scheme of things, his name was Flipper.
Natter, natter, natter, pitter-patter.

(yarr I be babblin')

degraded being · Oct 29, 2010

rhill said:
"He feels..." He told you so?

If putting forth historical facts re. L. Ron Hubbard amounts to "scandal sheet," than putting forth historical facts re. David Miscavige amounts to...?

Good point.

Atalantan · Oct 29, 2010

Terril park said:
How odd!

Note that my Friend MAB is characterised by Veda as being in league with me to proliferate pro LRH tech with PR.

Clearly he takes no notice of my orders.

One point of disagreement is your statement that those newly out will find ESMB in short order. In a google of " scientology" it dosn't make the top 50,
though it may be found in other ways, but I don't think in short order.

Its puzzling that ESMB is not so easily found by new people. I suspect that " Martyites" are well acquainted with critical sites and forums. They just don't like them.

This is why I suggested to Al that he learn about "backlinking" and perhaps other ways of boosting a site in the search engine results, if he wants more people to find ESMB through Google etc.

I'm no expert on it, but I know some rudiments of it. Posting on social sites and including the url is one way. Another is to write short articles and submitting them to article directories, including the url you want to boost in the "Author's Resource Box".

You can actually include the url to a specific thread, like the Apollo thread, and it will boost the site in the search engines.

Backlinking campaigns can also be purchased pretty cheaply through loss leader type offers, if you know how to find them.

Usually the goal is to get the site up into the top10 results, because that's all most people will look at.

To illustrate: go to Geir's(now Claire's) forum, make a post, and include the url to ESMB. If a lot of people did this on different threads there, each posting of the url would be a"backlink". To be most effective, the backlinks need to be placed on a lot of different sites, not just from one other forum or site. But links from different threads on the same forum will carry some weight with Google etc.

Atalantan · Oct 29, 2010

rhill said:
"He feels..." He told you so?

If putting forth historical facts re. L. Ron Hubbard amounts to "scandal sheet," than putting forth historical facts re. David Miscavige amounts to...?

"He told me so" in a sense. He posted a comment scolding another poster for posting some scandal about Gandhi, and then a short rant or explanation of how he felt about people posting that kind of information. He made it pretty clear he didn't want it done on his blog.

Sharone Stainforth · Oct 29, 2010

rhill wrote:

If putting forth historical facts re. L. Ron Hubbard amounts to "scandal sheet," than putting forth historical facts re. David Miscavige amounts to...?

Blasphemy

scooter · Oct 29, 2010

STONE THE BLASPHEMERS!!!! :coolwink:

1st Hand LRH Stories: Marty is Terrified of ESMB

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