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BunnySkull

Silver Meritorious Patron
There has been some speculation here that the M & M show and what has transpired here recently is all part of some sort of elaborate ultra-convoluted OSA / CoS management plot to, to – actually I’m not sure what it is meant to achieve. :confused2:

Quite how having dozens of well-known long-term members of the CoS publically leave the church and say how the CoS no longer follows the aims of it’s founder, helps them is beyond me. Can anyone explain this?

And, I fail to see how having many, many Scientologists publically criticise Miscavige and describe his abuses, portraying him as an insane despot, helps the CoS? All this has done is destroy any vestiges of respectability that they might have had. These things that have been said and documented about Miscavige, cannot be unsaid. They will always be there. Anyone who has worked with SO management know that they never allow any public criticism and cannot tolerate any loss of face. Miscavige would never allow these things to be said about him, if he could stop it.

When the dust finally settles in a few years or so, Scientology will have been thoroughly trashed as far as the general public is concerned. There will be no ‘going back’ or rehabilitation.

I believe that Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder are sincere wanting to remove Miscavige as the head of the CoS. Clearly they are still ‘believers’ in the Tech so naturally they still want to support it.

I have never heard Marty Rathbun state ‘That Scientology can, needs to, should, and MUST "clear the planet".’ I have heard him say that he wasn’t sure that Scientology can provide Total Freedom and I believe that he does not think that ‘Ron was always right’. In fact, I heard him with my own ears admit that he knew that Hubbard had lied about being married to Sarah Northrup and had made up a lot of things about himself to make his life sound more interesting.

I've never heard him say ‘That without availing yourself of Scientology and Scientology "tech", then you will end up suffering for all eternity, in oblivion, dying over and over forever’. In fact, if you actually read what he says on his blog, he often recommends other ways of improving one’s life or situation.

OSA really aren’t that clever. I’ve seen this with my own eyes and many other personal accounts back this up – most of what goes on in the CoS is characterised by chaotic stupidity. They are unable to plan more than a few days in advance, let alone plan, run and maintain a complex subterfuge worthy of a le Carré novel, for years on end.

They can’t do it. How many successful OSA operations have there been? And by successful, I mean permanently successful, not apparently successful in the short-term only to become a footbullet of biblical proportions when the truth gets out?

Axiom142

My two cents only: The m&m show could be an elaborate ploy to "save" Scientology. Everyone knows the reputation of the cult is in the toilet - unsalvageable. M&M frame it as it all being Miscabbages fault and with him gone Scientology will be free of all that is bad and can now really save this sector. It's a scapegoat operation. Need some sort of plan to save the cult money machine from the downward spiral. Then they can say all that horrible cult stuff everyone heard for years was true, but it was all the fault of the SP COB and now that's he's gone everything is hunky-dory and workable.

Also I'm always surprised COB isn't a bit glad Marty is flushing out all the doubters and the counter intention SPs in his cult. DM wants a docile flock of sheep to be.ieve his every word, adore him and hand over their money when asked with no nattering. Marty and FZ are ensuring that only the most gullible, fanatical cult members remain in the cult. OSA has set up fake FZ groups in the past as sting operations, but I think Marty's campaign goes well beyond the scope of that type of operation. But the cult has never hated the FZ like they do total critics, cause at least the FZ still believe and still must buy/ get e-meters and books and maybe one day will come back to the fold. FZ'ers still promote Scientology whereas critics try to expose the total con.

Marty is also pr savvy he obviously isn't going to appear to be a batshit fanatic to the public. He knows the media and others won't take him seriously if he presents his SO galactic soldier valance, so he gives them an image he knows they find acceptable. I think deep down he is a total fanatic but he knows appearing as such ATM could negatively affect his goals. (but glimpses of it do peek out from time to time in his comments, particular when he's upset with too much questioning)
 
... But never in the last year (to my recall) have I seen FZers calling MR or those in his group OSA operatives. ...

I've heard precisely that on numerous occasions among freezoners. Keep in mind, few freezoners post regularly on boards such as esmb. More lurk, either as members or as a part of the "not logged-in" general internet public. But even they aren't exactly "breaking the doors down" to post on the board. Most are simply involved with other things.


Mark A. Baker
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Ok Dexter, I will unsubscribe you.

I know you won't respond to this, but I just need to highlight this one thing.

I asked:
1. Could you please explain why exposing your DA of Mike Laws means I'm "going out of your way to, as owner and opinion leader of ESMB, pronounce these people as good and acceptable, and thus now making ESMB a supportive environment for them".

You replied:
Your terminology "exposing your DA" is intentionally biased. I exposed the truth. You are using CoS/OSA terms like "DA" and applying them to me. You have obviously been going out of your way to promote these people, you have betrayed longtime friends Zinjifar, Alanzo, Carmel and others in doing so. There's your answer.

Interesting that Alanzo played the "you are betraying your friends" card too. I never did find out what he meant.

Are you sure you're not related to the guy Louis Theroux interviews in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko3t0RnkqBY
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
I've heard precisely that on numerous occasions among freezoners. Keep in mind, few freezoners post regularly on boards such as esmb. More lurk, either as members or as a part of the "not logged-in" general internet public. But even they aren't exactly "breaking the doors down" to post on the board. Most are simply involved with other things.


Mark A. Baker

Interesting. And yeh, it hasn't been on boards like ESMB before. You FZers have your own sites, so not a lot of you post here regularly. But it is important that you do.

It's only the exposure to different views that keeps tolerance alive.
 

idrizomare

Patron with Honors
My two cents only: The m&m show could be an elaborate ploy to "save" Scientology. Everyone knows the reputation of the cult is in the toilet - unsalvageable. M&M frame it as it all being Miscabbages fault and with him gone Scientology will be free of all that is bad and can now really save this sector. It's a scapegoat operation.

My difficulty with this possibility is that the conjectured plan is too complicated. If Scientology wants to scapegoat its leader, it doesn't need (apparent) external corroboration from Marty and Mike. They can just "overboard" Miscavige whenever they feel like it. Or they can engineer Miscavige running away with plenty of loot if that suits everyone better.

Pretty much nobody outside of Scientology circles knows or cares anything Scientology's management. What would be the benefit of establishing external credibility to support removing Miscavige from power?
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Emma, something like this has happened on WWP a few months ago.

Some of the longest-term Anon protestors tried running the WWP Board and abused the mods/owner and tried to put them down ON THEIR OWN BOARD. They saw it as "their Board".

They got carried away, I guess, and forgot where they were. A lot of people were infracted or banned. There was heaps of upsets by others and some rage quitting.

Apparently it has happened on WWP more than once, too. It's just something that happens on Boards and forums.

It's your site, your forum. You need to run it in the way that is comfortable and right for you, not us. It's not a democracy. And you've been far more tolerant of some of the statements to you than WWP has been. Maybe too tolerant. You spend heaps of hours of your own time on here and nobody has the right to abuse you in your own home.
 

SomeGuy

Patron Meritorious
It's your site, your forum. You need to run it in the way that is comfortable and right for you, not us. It's not a democracy. And you've been far more tolerant of some of the statements to you than WWP has been. Maybe too tolerant. You spend heaps of hours of your own time on here and nobody has the right to abuse you in your own home.

Just to nitpick and I mean this sincerely. Emma administers forum software and while she is a contributor she is not, in my opinion, what made this place tick for the past years. Her actions greatly contributed but I can honestly tell you some of the "bad boys" were a primary reason why I personally felt to get involved back in 2007. Their stories and view points convinced me you were all not just a bunch of paranoid dilusional people but that scientology was actually a cult.

Their posts, their contributions. This community is a sum of it's parts and I keep hearing the "it's your board" while technically true I think it's at it's core one of the reason why you saw some ragequits here. Unlike a WWP / enturb where it's users expect to be abused the rules here make it so that it should be "safe" ground.

I took personal offense when emma pointed at the mike laws thread and said the first five posters were an example of what she didn't like. How it all turned into this tempest in a teapot where what would be "long term friends" now have people who are cheering for and against is kind of saddening. So I can understand why people feel slighted.

My thoughts on it? Time cures all things, or at least grants some perspective. There is no right here as far as how the boards and it's users are treated. I was baffled why a simple request from emma escalated into bannings (where it wasn't obvious what was going on). Seeing as there is a backstory and assumptions upon assumptions on both sides, it looks paranoid crazy.

A little sunshine makes it seem much less crazy, why a forum lets all this back channel "gossip", specially things that are hurtful occur is probably part of the culture here but I think that's the part of all this that is truly rotten. "OSA ops" or "idiot ops" are foolish when exposed to all participants, when they are kept as deep dark secrets the ends get played against the middle.

Any ways, this is rambling posts that basically states, why are there sides to this? I have a feeling there is even more to this backstory (which is none of my business) but it's undertows are drowing out a segment of this community.

Moratorium on discussing this to allow time for "healing" and perspective is what I think would serve all parties. The "bannies" can't post, those who can might want to give it a rest for a bit.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Show me a PL where this shows how he could remain an OSA OP?

Or show me a GO/OSA issue.

Never mind Dex, it could be anyone. Here's two - would you like more?

HCOPL 27 March, 1972, Counter Attack Tactics

HCOPL 7 March, 1965, Ethics, Suppressive Acts, Suppression of Scientology: the Fair Game Law
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Phew ...

I'm not fully up to date with the goings on here over the last few days but I see there is still a lot of upset in the air.

I think it's surprising that we haven't had a lot more drama over the years because there are two very distinct groups that use this board, Ex scientologists and scientologists (Indie's Freezoners etc) ... one group are here to dump scientology and the other to protect the tek, talk about the tek and effectively promote the tek.

Water and oil don't mix, it is amazing that we get along as well as we do.

FWIW I think the banning's were wrong, I saw chat on the night that it got serious and I did see what has been called disrespect shown to Emma ... but I have seen banter like this many times before between Em and these same people and there was no resultant upset ... the banning's came like a bolt from the blue and it felt like Emma was suddenly pulling rank.

Emma is working full-time, is a Mother and a new wife, she has a court case hanging over her head and due to her computers being grabbed by the Police is now back running this board from a laptop and the software is playing up .. she made it quite clear many months ago that she needed and wanted a break but she didn't get one ... I think that workload would make anyone slightly irrational on occasion!

Clearly there are upsets in addition to all of this between old friends (in Aus) and it saddens me to see it happening but I expect they will eventually be ironed out as these things usually are ... in private.

There is around a week to go before the bans are lifted and I think it would be a really good thing if they could be lifted now.

I know this post will not be popular and I have resisted making it, but Emma knows how I feel about her and she will know that I mean this in the best possible way for her, ESMB and for all who post here.

Our target is OSA and the abuse within scientology, not each other.

:blowkiss:
 

Gaijin

Patron
That's right Trin, they might annoy and divide us, but in the end they will go down, their actions here only speed their inevitable demise.

It's all footbullets in the end.

This, of course, is yet another GLORIOUS victory ... right on the heels of their crushing defeat of Anonymous... (tina)

Gaijin
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
I'm not fully up to date with the goings on here over the last few days but I see there is still a lot of upset in the air.

I think it's surprising that we haven't had a lot more drama over the years because there are two very distinct groups that use this board, Ex scientologists and scientologists (Indie's Freezoners etc) ... one group are here to dump scientology and the other to protect the tek, talk about the tek and effectively promote the tek.

Water and oil don't mix, it is amazing that we get along as well as we do.

FWIW I think the banning's were wrong, I saw chat on the night that it got serious and I did see what has been called disrespect shown to Emma ... but I have seen banter like this many times before between Em and these same people and there was no resultant upset ... the banning's came like a bolt from the blue and it felt like Emma was suddenly pulling rank.

Emma is working full-time, is a Mother and a new wife, she has a court case hanging over her head and due to her computers being grabbed by the Police is now back running this board from a laptop and the software is playing up .. she made it quite clear many months ago that she needed and wanted a break but she didn't get one ... I think that workload would make anyone slightly irrational on occasion!

Clearly there are upsets in addition to all of this between old friends (in Aus) and it saddens me to see it happening but I expect they will eventually be ironed out as these things usually are ... in private.

There is around a week to go before the bans are lifted and I think it would be a really good thing if they could be lifted now.

I know this post will not be popular and I have resisted making it, but Emma knows how I feel about her and she will know that I mean this in the best possible way for her, ESMB and for all who post here.

Our target is OSA and the abuse within scientology, not each other.

:blowkiss:

Heya trouble :)

I understand why you feel that way but I have to tell you honestly - I'm not lifting the bans until they are up.

I'm enjoying the peace too much and I don't have the energy to face up to the barrage I'm bound to cop as soon as they can post again.

They might not need another week but I do.
 

Kookaburra

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm not fully up to date with the goings on here over the last few days but I see there is still a lot of upset in the air.

I think it's surprising that we haven't had a lot more drama over the years because there are two very distinct groups that use this board, Ex scientologists and scientologists (Indie's Freezoners etc) ... one group are here to dump scientology and the other to protect the tek, talk about the tek and effectively promote the tek.

Water and oil don't mix, it is amazing that we get along as well as we do.

FWIW I think the banning's were wrong, I saw chat on the night that it got serious and I did see what has been called disrespect shown to Emma ... but I have seen banter like this many times before between Em and these same people and there was no resultant upset ... the banning's came like a bolt from the blue and it felt like Emma was suddenly pulling rank.

Emma is working full-time, is a Mother and a new wife, she has a court case hanging over her head and due to her computers being grabbed by the Police is now back running this board from a laptop and the software is playing up .. she made it quite clear many months ago that she needed and wanted a break but she didn't get one ... I think that workload would make anyone slightly irrational on occasion!

Clearly there are upsets in addition to all of this between old friends (in Aus) and it saddens me to see it happening but I expect they will eventually be ironed out as these things usually are ... in private.

There is around a week to go before the bans are lifted and I think it would be a really good thing if they could be lifted now.

I know this post will not be popular and I have resisted making it, but Emma knows how I feel about her and she will know that I mean this in the best possible way for her, ESMB and for all who post here.

Our target is OSA and the abuse within scientology, not each other.

:blowkiss:

You're right, ITYIWT. Not popular. Perhaps you should get up to date with the last weeks postings before you offer your advice on handling. As you point out, Emma has enough on her plate without any more dissension.

I think another week for the dust to settle would be prudent before letting four of the people causing the most upset back on the board.
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
This whole debacle seems to be missing the part that is happening backchannel... As such, the part that is visible (to me) is making no sense at all...

Well, that's probably by design.. By OSA? - Or just some former scilon who can't help but apply all the hubbardian shit. ('Third Party' in this instance..)

Hrrmpfh!! - It IS very important that we remain unperturbable! - Seeing that OSA will try to perturb us..

:yes:
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
I’m very, very disappointed in you, Dex. I know that means nothing to you, but it means something to me.

I got some good stuff out of some of your posts and, for that, I thank you.

Happy Trails.

Face:)

PS: Oh...as far as OSA goes...it aint over 'till the fat lady sings and she's already on stage, taking her opening bows.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
My difficulty with this possibility is that the conjectured plan is too complicated. If Scientology wants to scapegoat its leader, it doesn't need (apparent) external corroboration from Marty and Mike. They can just "overboard" Miscavige whenever they feel like it. Or they can engineer Miscavige running away with plenty of loot if that suits everyone better.

Pretty much nobody outside of Scientology circles knows or cares anything Scientology's management. What would be the benefit of establishing external credibility to support removing Miscavige from power?

A nice application of Occams Razor. simple explanations are far more likely than complex ones.
 
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