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Are You Afraid? Why?

Husky

Patron
To all the lurkers out there:

-Are you afraid?

Why?

-Is googling your own religion feels dangerous?

Why?

Lurking takes some guts though.
I give you a credit on that.

I mean it with no sarcasm.

Why are you lurking?

Peace.

Husky.

P.S. This is rather rhetorical, but feel free to answer and more...

P.P.S. And if you an OSA terminal, did you ever feel better in some way
for being able to read all the "entheta" on-line, because "it's your job"?

Why?

Take your time.
 
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Ladybird

Silver Meritorious Patron
Me and 27 "guests" viewing your very good post Husky! Thats a lot of lurkers for 2am. I hope a few will sign up and others will continue to lurk and read until they are ready to speak up too.
 

LongTimeGone

Silver Meritorious Patron
Fear is a natural emotion if you are a Scientologist.

Fear and anger are not very high on Hubbard's tone scale but about as far as you can get until you escape.

Lurkers keep reading and find out the truth for yourselves.

LTG
 

Natalie

Patron with Honors
As a former lurker I can tell you what my thoughts were on this. My parents, some extended family and my husband were still "onboard" with the C of S when I started looking and realizing my suspicions were a reality. I wasn't going to leave, let alone publicly without them because I knew what the C of S would do in terms of enforcing disconnection. The fact that the church would do something like that was a big reason on why I wanted to leave.

My husband, parents and extended family also thought something was seriously wrong in the C of S based on their own experiences. The endless calls at all hours for donations, the endless request and outright demands at time and money when in an org, the heavy recruitment cycles involving locking Scientologist in rooms and immediately getting them a metered ethics interview if they didn't sign the contract, and more and more. None of these things were things I got into Scientology for. What is the point of regaining your self determinism to only turn it over to an organization bent on controlling every aspect of your life.

My husband read the St. Pete Times article about the defectors, as did my parents and extended family and we started talking about it. To my surprise we had the SAME viewpoint in regard to the church and wanted out.

When you open your eyes and look, and evaluate the information there is NO denying that the Church of Scientology has adopted the behavior of a cult. Money and buildings is the priority over individual freedom. Control through threats is the operating basis. How many times are we supposed to do and redo the grade chart because of some "technical find"?

I had no concerns about loosing the Bridge as I soon learned that if I chose to continue it was fully available outside of the church and for a fraction of a cost, and yes standardly. You can train and do auditing outside of the C of S if you want to.

My family and I have been out for 15 months and it has been the most freeing 15 months of our lives! Each aspect of our lives improved. We do more together as a family. I'm able to travel more, volunteer and socialize in my community. Things that when I was "In" were frowned upon and discouraged. My weekends are mine. We are not having to dodge phone calls from multiple orgs, or trying to get out of 3-4 events a week. I'm not sitting in a moldy org basement handling their filing backlogs, I'm handling my own backlogs and getting my life in order.

We are able to read and watch anything we want and think for ourselves in regard to the information. Our money goes into increasing our survival. We have a daughter in college and two other children who will have that option also.

Just as I knew, you know that something is NOT right in the C of S. It's not what you signed up for. You have the power to walk away from it. The C of S has NO power, except for what you grant them. They are insignificant to the rest of the world, and known for their abuses. Your family and friends outside of the church know about it as they read the articles and see the TV shows exposing it, fearing for your happiness, future and safety. They don't say much because they fear you will cut them off. You will find they will be relieved that you finally left.

There is a lot of support out here, you won't be alone and you will have your integrity. Take back control of your life and experience real freedom.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I second the motion! Excellent post Natalie. :goodjob:

Hubbard's subject materials and the implementation of them by the Church of Scientology CREATES an environment of FEAR. It is constant and unrelenting.

Fear that you will be declared if you disagree with or even question ANYTHING.

Fear that you will be separated from family and friends forever if declared.

Fear that you will lose your chance at "total freedom".

Fear that you might be a DB, PTS or "evil".

Fear that the Church might find out what you REALLY think about them.

And, fear that if you actually honestly LOOK and OPEN YOUR EYES, and begin expanding your pool of FACTS about LRH & the Church (by beginning to check out the HUGE amount of online information), that you will have no choice but to begin separating yourself from Hubbard's ideas and the crazy Church organization that he created. Which of course will open the door to most of the fears mentioned earlier.

This fear is deeply suppressed with many members, and many are unable to spot it in themselves as the powerful force that it is in theirs lives.

The Church of Scientology very much TRAPS members through extensive fear. This is based on exact LRH policies.

++++++
 
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MrNobody

Who needs merits?
<snip>
My husband read the St. Pete Times article about the defectors, as did my parents and extended family and we started talking about it. To my surprise we had the SAME viewpoint in regard to the church and wanted out.
<snip>

This is what I don't understand. Obviously many $cn's watch TV, read newspapers, basically all this "entheta" stuff (if I'm allowed to use that term), but most of them keep it to themselves. They don't communicate.

Being in a "religion" that says "communication is the universal solvent", how do they do that? Fear, yeah, that's obviously a valid reason for many of 'em, but is it really that strong? Does talking about such important issues make you (and your family) such rare animals?

I've been in close contact with many very different groups over the years, but this is really unique. Usually, when there's something that's bothering many group members, they talk about it and either it gets resolved, or the group splits up. Don't these people remember that there's a free world out there? How does it happen?

EDIT:
OK, while I was typing,Gadfly has already explained it somehow, but still: Is the "group fear" really that strong?
 
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Gadfly

Crusader
This is what I don't understand. Obviously many $cn's watch TV, read newspapers, basically all this "entheta" stuff (if I'm allowed to use that term), but most of them keep it to themselves. They don't communicate.

Being in a "religion" that says "communication is the universal solvent", how do they do that? Fear, yeah, that's obviously a valid reason for many of 'em, but is it really that strong? Does talking about such important issues make you (and your family) such rare animals?

I've been in close contact with many very different groups over the years, but this is really unique. Usually, when there's something that's bothering many group members, they talk about it and either it gets resolved, or the group splits up. Don't these people remember that there's a free world out there? How does it happen?

It happens through a VERY WELL-DESIGNED indoctrination system, based on the ideas of KSW, along with other key ideas, that are carefully and systematically laid into the minds of participants on a very slick GRADIENT.

That is exactly HOW it happens.

And yes, the FEAR is THAT STRONG.

Fear of losing the "bridge", "my only chance at total freedom and getting out of the eternal trap that will render me a rock if I fail to get out this time", is a VERY powerful factor in controlling the behavior of Scientology Church members.

The carrot on the stick, the desire for the "Bridge", is what keeps them motivated. Once they have been convinced that Hubbard's data provides the solution to this problem (trapped in a meat body and MEST for all eternity), most will stay in line to get what he or she believes to be SO VERY IMPORTANT. Of course, many can fairly easily come to see that they can get the same "Bridge" outside of the Church.

For all Hubbard's talk about "you are required to believe nothing", and for all the member's who parrot that PR line, staying in Scientology most certainly requires very STRONG BELIEF in certain ideas (such as KSW ideas). If a Church member didn't accept, agree with and BELIEVE that Scientology provides, and that Scientology ONLY provides, a "bridge" to "total freedom", well, many would NOT stick around or put up with the endless bullshit. But also, once a member is firmly entrenched, with FAMILY and FRIENDS now also in, even if he or she loses certainty in the idea that Scientology can actually "free you", this person CANNOT just express discontent, because the FEAR of losing friends and family then kicks in and takes over.

Hubbard's system creates the very strong desire "to go free". It is a delusion of sorts, and while not at all the same as "the desire for MEST" that Hubbard criticizes, it functions EXACTLY the same way as a force of motivation.

Desire for ANYTHING is what traps any person. Basic Buddhist stuff. Hubbard knew that (C-D-E-I Scale). He USED that to create an intense desire for his "Bridge". And, the FEAR of being unable to realize that desire is an extremely powerful motivating force.

Do not underestimate the "KR" system (knowledge reports). All Church members are well-trained to write-up a KR on ANY staff member or public person who so much as hints at a negative comment about LRH, DM, management or the Church of Scientology. That is partially WHY Church members do not "compare notes". It used to amaze me, when I was in, how strong of a force this was, because I could get certain members to open up about certain things, but it took time and energy on my part to get them to do so. It is/was just more fear. Fear that no matter how honest one is about what they see and communicate about, that some other member will write them up, and they will get sent immediately to ethics for "handling" (behavioral adjustment).

Many members have undergone "Sec Checks" for making disagreeable comments to others, and they learn FAST to keep things to themselves. They modify their behavior to remain "safe". When I was in the Sea Org, I often noticed how certain questions would be added to my Sec Checks, fairly soon after I made certain comments to other staff about certain things. It was COMMON. Fundamentally, it is probably a survival thing. "If I just shut up, I can't get into trouble". THAT is a powerful aspect to life in the Church of Scientology. For all the talk of "freedom" in Scientology, freedom of expression is horribly suppressed. It is one of the reasons why I left the Sea Org - far too much suppressed communication by participants! But, the same type of suppressed communcation exists for the public Scientology members.

The system is very well-designed to keep the belief/agreement pool "pure", and to closely monitor, detect and handle ANY disagreement within the Scientology environment. It is an excellent control system! Any aspiring dictator could well benefit by closely studying Hubbard's Church of Scientology.

++++++
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Message to all Lurkers...............



"If you fail to get out of the trap right now you may never again have another chance....but then again, later today or tomorrow's fine if you want to wait until then to get out of the cult trap."
(Hell Ron Hoaxard)
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
It happens through a VERY WELL-DESIGNED indoctrination system, based on the ideas of KSW, with key ideas that are carefully and systematically fed into the minds of participants on a very slick GRADIENT.

That is exactly HOW it happens.

And yes, the FEAR is THAT STRONG.

Fear of losing the "bridge", "my only chance at total freedom and getting out of the eternal trap that will render me a rock if I fail to get out this time", is a VERY powerful factor in controlling the behavior of Scientology Church members.

The carrot on the stick, the desire for the "Bridge", is what keeps them motivated. Once they have been convinced that Hubbard's data provides the solution to this problem (trapped in a meat body and MEST for all eternity), most will stay in line to get what he or she believes to be SO VERY IMPORTANT. Of course, many can fairly easily come to see that they can get the same "Bridge" outside of the Church.

Hubbard's system creates the very strong desire "to go free". It is a delusion of sorts, and while not at all the same as "the desire for MEST" that Hubbard criticizes, it functions EXACTLY the same way as a force of motivation.

Desire for ANYTHING is what traps any person. Basic Buddhist stuff. Hubbard knew that (C-D-E-I Scale). He USED that to create an intense desire for his "Bridge". And, the FEAR of being unable to realise that desire is a powerful motivating force.

Do not underestimate the "KR" system (knowledge reports). All Church members are well-trained to write-up a KR on ANY staff member or public person who so much as hints at a negative comment about LRH, DM, management or the Church of Scientology. That is partially WHY Church members do not "compare notes". It used to amaze when I was in how strong of a force this was, because I could get certain members to open up about certain things, but it took time and energy on my part to get them to do so. It is/was just more fear. Fear that no matter how honest one is about what they see and communicate about, that some other member will write them up, and they will get sent immediately to ethics for "handling" (behavioral adjustment).

The system is very well-designed to keep the belief/agreement pool "pure", and to closely monitor, detect and handle ANY disagreement within the Scientology environment. It is an excellent control system! Any aspiring dictator could well benefit by studying Hubbard's Church of Scientology.

++++++

Yeah, the eternal trap... So the basis for all this fear, is basically the belief in reincarnation? Combined with Hubturd's fairytale about that "downward spiral?" And this ugly little mixture enforced by peer pressure and group dynamics?

I mean I, together with some friends, managed to manipulate one person, and it was scary to see how easy it was, and even scarier that this guy still believes in what we've told him, although we told him a few days later, that it was just a hoax. Decades later, after having been informed that it was a hoax again and again, and being told countless times about how we did it, he still believes it. A group effort that started as a simple harmless joke, affected someones life for decades, and still does.

So yeah, I know what can be done to isolated people, if the situation and time is right, and there is a group to enforce it, but doing it to tens of thousands all over the world? I honestly don't think very highly of the Hubturd, but with this, he, for one time in his worthless life, achieved something.

So here's the question I've had before I even came here to ESMB and still have: How can we kill that beast?

I'm SO glad that the hoax we played on that poor guy was a harmless one, that didn't cost him a penny and didn't mess him up.
 

Wisened One

Crusader
Good post and questions, Husky. (And great responses!) :yes:

May more lurking happen, and may more join and post and may even MORE 'Wake up and Walk OUT!!'
 

Mest Lover

Not Sea Org Qualified
If the Church of Scientology is supposed to free you from imprisonment, then why is it that you are being imprisoned by them?

Take an honest look at how they are controlling your every moment and LEAVE the thing that is chaining you!
 

IMMORTAL

Patron Meritorious
It happens through a VERY WELL-DESIGNED indoctrination system, based on the ideas of KSW, along with other key ideas, that are carefully and systematically laid into the minds of participants on a very slick GRADIENT.

That is exactly HOW it happens.

And yes, the FEAR is THAT STRONG.

Fear of losing the "bridge", "my only chance at total freedom and getting out of the eternal trap that will render me a rock if I fail to get out this time", is a VERY powerful factor in controlling the behavior of Scientology Church members.

The carrot on the stick, the desire for the "Bridge", is what keeps them motivated. Once they have been convinced that Hubbard's data provides the solution to this problem (trapped in a meat body and MEST for all eternity), most will stay in line to get what he or she believes to be SO VERY IMPORTANT. Of course, many can fairly easily come to see that they can get the same "Bridge" outside of the Church.

For all Hubbard's talk about "you are required to believe nothing", and for all the member's who parrot that PR line, staying in Scientology most certainly requires very STRONG BELIEF in certain ideas (such as KSW ideas). If a Church member didn't accept, agree with and BELIEVE that Scientology provides, and that Scientology ONLY provides, a "bridge" to "total freedom", well, many would NOT stick around or put up with the endless bullshit. But also, once a member is firmly entrenched, with FAMILY and FRIENDS now also in, even if he or she loses certainty in the idea that Scientology can actually "free you", this person CANNOT just express discontent, because the FEAR of losing friends and family then kicks in and takes over.

Hubbard's system creates the very strong desire "to go free". It is a delusion of sorts, and while not at all the same as "the desire for MEST" that Hubbard criticizes, it functions EXACTLY the same way as a force of motivation.

Desire for ANYTHING is what traps any person. Basic Buddhist stuff. Hubbard knew that (C-D-E-I Scale). He USED that to create an intense desire for his "Bridge". And, the FEAR of being unable to realize that desire is an extremely powerful motivating force.

Do not underestimate the "KR" system (knowledge reports). All Church members are well-trained to write-up a KR on ANY staff member or public person who so much as hints at a negative comment about LRH, DM, management or the Church of Scientology. That is partially WHY Church members do not "compare notes". It used to amaze me, when I was in, how strong of a force this was, because I could get certain members to open up about certain things, but it took time and energy on my part to get them to do so. It is/was just more fear. Fear that no matter how honest one is about what they see and communicate about, that some other member will write them up, and they will get sent immediately to ethics for "handling" (behavioral adjustment).

Many members have undergone "Sec Checks" for making disagreeable comments to others, and they learn FAST to keep things to themselves. They modify their behavior to remain "safe". When I was in the Sea Org, I often noticed how certain questions would be added to my Sec Checks, fairly soon after I made certain comments to other staff about certain things. It was COMMON. Fundamentally, it is probably a survival thing. "If I just shut up, I can't get into trouble". THAT is a powerful aspect to life in the Church of Scientology. For all the talk of "freedom" in Scientology, freedom of expression is horribly suppressed. It is one of the reasons why I left the Sea Org - far too much suppressed communication by participants! But, the same type of suppressed communcation exists for the public Scientology members.

The system is very well-designed to keep the belief/agreement pool "pure", and to closely monitor, detect and handle ANY disagreement within the Scientology environment. It is an excellent control system! Any aspiring dictator could well benefit by closely studying Hubbard's Church of Scientology.

++++++

This is such a great thread! The question is a valid one? Are you afraid and Why?

Well, I agree with all the answers given about the control and manipulation of a person's bridge and "eternity" and what happens if you disagree in any way. If I haven't experienced it myself, I've seen these things happen to others and know them to be true. Really, you can't really trust anyone "in" because the only thing they can do to "save themselves" and set themselves separate from you is to report you if they notice an outpoint in your communication or behavior that would indicate some kind of disaffection.

I had a situation while I was auditing on OT7 where I felt that I didn't want to come out the end of OT7 being an OT7 clone. I made this comment in my worksheets and sent them off to my CS. When I hit Flag for the next refresher, I was swiftly whisked off to the MAA for some serious questioning about that comment. Where did I hear it? Who said it? When was it? blah blah blah. While it was a passing thought and comment to my CS from my viewpoint, it was a big flap from their viewpoint and they felt the need to get to the bottom of it. I felt like I had landed in a huge witch hunt.

This was one more thing on the stack of things on the side of "what doesn't add up about this picture" that finally tipped me out of there.

While cause over life is promised and all the other abilities on the grade chart are promoted, sold for big money and promised, one is extremely limited to use any abilities supposedly gained while still in Scientology. Free to communicate with anyone, about anything as a Grade 0 release ability gained? Fuggetaboutit. Try it. Try to communicate to a Scientologist who is still in about what's on in your mind if you have questions about the church, or tech, or LRH. You'll find out really quick you don't want to communicate about this. You can only use your new "abilities" safely outside the church and don't try to use them to evaluate your involvement with and in the church.

Many here have posted what has happened when they tried to do that. It's not pretty. That's why people are afraid while still in.

Once a person is out, it is such a release. Talk about release and relief! Only once I was out did I realize how much stress and pressure I was under while I was still in. Only then did I realize how much I was suppressing my communication and thoughts. I'm just disappointed that I waited so long to leave.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
I just checked "Who's Online" and saw we had 60 MEMBERS (many of whom are using a nick and are anonymous too) and 280 GUESTS. That's nearly 4.5 times as many lurkers as ESMBers online at Monday midday.

Lurkers, you are not alone! Looks like a lot of others in your shoes are doing the same thing you are. Isn't that comforting to know?

TG1
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
This is what I don't understand. Obviously many $cn's watch TV, read newspapers, basically all this "entheta" stuff (if I'm allowed to use that term), but most of them keep it to themselves. They don't communicate.

Being in a "religion" that says "communication is the universal solvent", how do they do that? Fear, yeah, that's obviously a valid reason for many of 'em, but is it really that strong? Does talking about such important issues make you (and your family) such rare animals?

I've been in close contact with many very different groups over the years, but this is really unique. Usually, when there's something that's bothering many group members, they talk about it and either it gets resolved, or the group splits up. Don't these people remember that there's a free world out there? How does it happen?

EDIT:
OK, while I was typing,Gadfly has already explained it somehow, but still: Is the "group fear" really that strong?


The True Believer
 

olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
Eric Hoffer

While The True Believer is Hoffer's best-known book, he wrote several others and remains one of the most impressive American writer/philosophers of the 20th century.

Below is a link to his other books.

http://www.hopepubs.com/HofferBooks.htm

Also check out the Wikipedia article on Hoffer, which mentions his still-unpublished works -- 75 feet of notebooks full of his original writings.

I once asked the question on this forum -- or maybe it was OCMB, anyway it was a forum that attracts non-CoS scios and exscientologists -- what 20th century philosophers and authors other than Hubbard had impressed readers of the forum. That question inspired a remarkable dearth of answers... oh well.

Hoffer was born in 1902, which means he was a contemporary of Hubbard's and is among a handful of 20th century writers that, in my opinion, are GIANTs compared to Hubbard. Hoffer's works are filled with the wisdom of a man who thought for himself and who (particularly notable in comparison to Hubbard) refused to use his talents to exploit others in order to acquire power and wealth at their expense.

Read the blurbs about his many books at the link above for a quick taste of the man's offerings.
 
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