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Last Conspiracy Theory! lol

xguardian

Patron with Honors
Actually, this "666" (or "616" in some manuscripts) stuff is related to a particular reference in the "New Testament" where the ancient Hebrew "gematria" is used to disguise a particular reference.

You might find this opinion on this topic interesting:
Why is 666 the "Number of the Beast"? - by Gary DeMar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ezM3j3RAiI

Related info:

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/lightfoot.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespasian


Sometime during the siege on Jerusalem, Vespasian returned to Rome to take office in place of Nero and left his son, Titus, in charge to finish the siege on Jerusalem (which he did). The devastation is also outlined in Revelation. (Other remarks on this topic are mentioned in Matthew 24:1, Luke 21:5, and in "The Wars of the Jews", written by Flavius Josephus.)

And more from an old thread on this topic:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=6085&highlight=Vespasion&page=2

With thousands of years to play with "Theology" there's a lot of stuff out there. According to Genesis Man was created on the 6th day...thus 6 is his number. The Bible teaches that man is Spirit, soul and body. When rebellious man claims to be equal with God, as Lucifer did, 666 represents man opposed to God in all that he is.:coolwink:
 

xguardian

Patron with Honors
The 8th is a stretch - I'd have to dig on that to see how he put it together. As far as I know it's related to earth, material things - I can see how Hubbard landed there based on his own cosmology but not so much where he took it from. But 7 has a common association with spirituality and the spirit.

The symbol 8 in configuration has no beginning or end..thus infinite.:coolwink:
 
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Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
With thousands of years to play with "Theology" there's a lot of stuff out there. According to Genesis Man was created on the 6th day...thus 6 is his number. The Bible teaches that man is Spirit, soul and body. When rebellious man claims to be equal with God, as Lucifer did, 666 represents man opposed to God in all that he is.:coolwink:

So if 666 is the inversion of God.

God would have to be 999.

And now I know where 69 came from.

I like religious things !
 

xguardian

Patron with Honors
When I did some Old Testament studies, the professor said that:


  1. 7 is a number for God and for what is Godly (how many times must I forgive? 70 x 7; And on the seventh day God rested; John's vision Jesus tells him to write letters to the seven churches; John sees a vision of the Son of Man, who walks among seven lampstands and has seven stars in his right hand. Revelation 1:20 states that "The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."
  2. 6 stands for satan and for evil, being slightly less than 7;
  3. 8 is for eternity;
  4. 4 is for the universe.

E.W. Bullinger has great book "Number in Scripture"http://philologos.org/__eb-nis/
 

xguardian

Patron with Honors
The symbol 8 in configuration has no beginning or end..thus infinite.:coolwink:

PART II
ITS SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE

EIGHT

In Hebrew the number eight is hnm# (Sh'moneh), from the root Nm# (Shah'meyn), "to make fat," "cover with fat," "to super-abound." As a participle it means "one who abounds in strength," etc. As a noun it is "superabundant fertility," "oil," etc. So that as a numeral it is the superabundant number. As seven was so called because the seventh day was the day of completion and rest, so eight, as the eighth day, was over and above this perfect completion, and was indeed the first of a new series, as well as being the eighth. Thus it already represents two numbers in one, the first and eighth. Let us first consider the connection between


http://philologos.org/__eb-nis/
 

xguardian

Patron with Honors
Gadfly not that I've seen. I think he's crossing wires here and talking about the dynamics where 7 is spiritual and 8 the infinite. If he is right we might have stumbled upon Wrong's source on the dynamics.

from lerment...


Hubbard had fondness for the number 8 and used it extensively in scientology, as in Hubbard's books named Technique 88, Scientology 8-80, and one called 8-8008. There are also 8 dynamics, and the their gradation chart of awareness, is set up on 8s too, there are 8 levels to "Clear" and then 8 levels to OT8..now jump back to the 1930's, Hitler's SS - SS is the closest approximation in letters to 88. Note the colors and feeling of the Scientology Management logo below from their own pages.


Long before Hitler's SS gained power over the German government, to keep from getting into trouble for saying, "Heil Hitler" in their correspondences, they would sign them 88, because "H" is the 8th letter of the alphabet, hence 88 became the secret signature, at the end of letters sent my supporters and members of the Nazi Party, for
Heil Hitler. http://www.lermanet.com/scientology-and-occult/
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Bingo!
Two fat ladies 88.

A number is nothing but what it is, a number.

The Arabic numerals are the way they are because originally there was one angle for one, two for two, three for three and so on.

The Hebrew ones were an after thought after the alefbet. So they just used the letters.

69 though is a very interesting number. It does have another significance apparently.

And can I just say, numbers are really boring! Without numbers there would never have been stats. Let's ban numbers.
 

xguardian

Patron with Honors
Bingo!
Two fat ladies 88.

A number is nothing but what it is, a number.

The Arabic numerals are the way they are because originally there was one angle for one, two for two, three for three and so on.

The Hebrew ones were an after thought after the alefbet. So they just used the letters.

69 though is a very interesting number. It does have another significance apparently.

And can I just say, numbers are really boring! Without numbers there would never have been stats. Let's ban numbers.

no!!! not the numbers!!!:omg:
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Interesting, if true. Anyone on ESMB have a familiarity with numerology? Is it anywhere CLEARLY stated that "7 represents the spiritual and 8 is infinite"?

I would be looking for a clear and simple statement, and NOT references that would require me to twist and bend significances to arrive at the idea.

++++++++++

The unfortunate problem with numerology is that numbers meant different things to different cultures in different writings.

If we are referring to the Bible, many numbers had meanings other than the numbers themselves. For example, "40 days and 40 nights" is not literal. It means a time of trial and tribulation and that is why that phrase recurs so many times. The number 3 means perfection. But that is just in old Hebrew. I don't recall 7 or 8 having any specific meanings in Hebrew.

The Cabbala (also spelled Kabbala or Qabala), which is Jewish mysticism, states the number 666 represents the creation and perfection of the world. The world was created in 6 days, and there are 6 cardinal directions (North, South, East, West, Up, Down). 6 is also the numerical value of one of the letters of God's name. http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&source=www.google.com.au

Nothing directly to do with evil. And only Kabbalistic numerology would apply to the Bible.

But then there is a question whether the Biblical manuscripts said 616 or 666.

The Cabbala is fascinating, btw.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
The unfortunate problem with numerology is that numbers meant different things to different cultures in different writings.

<snippage>

The Cabbala is fascinating, btw.

Yeah, we really have two problems (the same two problems with MANY subjects).

First, the subject itself states different things in different places about the SAME thing! :unsure:

Second, you can take 1000 people and they will each interpret the SAME thing in MANY different ways! :unsure:

What is one to do???? :confused2:

BOTH occur extensively in Scientology. The fact of number two is well hidden though, because Scientology participants are NOT ALLOWED to discuss case, or "discuss" LRH data outside of a courseroom, qual or ethics (No Verbal Data rule). So, most Church members never discover just how differently he or she considers so much of the "data" from other Church members. Differences in viewpoints are masked in this way. Also, NOBODY dare brings up the examples where Hubbard contradicts himself, or states things in a vague or metaphorical manner.

That is made all the worse by endless enforced "rituals of agreement" (the details of the indoctrination process) such as events, briefings, musters, staff meetings, weekly graduations, mandatory success stories, Chinese School, word clearing, drills, "correction", checksheets, etc.

And, yep, I agree, the Kabbalah IS fascinating. Remember how we talked about the whole "tentacle" thing with beings as related to God? Well, that whole thing of the the various levels of creation and the EMANATIONS of/from God may/can tie in to THAT! :yes:

I haven't read stuff about the Kabbalah in awhile, but the idea of the "Rays" also ties in with that, where the rays can be thought of as fundamental fine "energies" that have their source in the ONE, and which together act to build, form and maintain the universe (on every level). The "rays" can also correlate to the Chakras (etheric energy centers residing along the spine).

Who knows? I don't. I just know/am aware which of the many various ideas "make me smile" . . . . :happydance: Those do! :happydance:

Of course, THAT is all that happens with Scientologists as regards their affinity for their subject materials. They like what they read, and it makes them feel good. That is fine. But, THAT should NOT give them the right to conduct a brutal mission on the world to FORCE everyone else to accept and agree EXACTLY with what makes THEM smile (or else)! And, THAT is what they aim to due according exactly to the aims of Scientoogy and Command Intention - to bring the people's of the world to understanding - and to understand that Scientology and ONLY Scientology as described in KSW can solve any/all of the world's many problems. Hubbard set it up to produce total fruitcakes! He succeeded!

++++++++++
 
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uniquemand

Unbeliever
tinfoil.jpg
 

Gadfly

Crusader
self is never sufficient

So true! :happydance:

Pure Self is that state of "being at Tone 40" and "no games conditions" (oops, sorry to use Scio-terms), where I suppose it would be entirey BORING!!!! No game. Nothing going on. Unmanifested Nothingness. Yawn.

The path back to "Self", stretched over very great amounts of time, can be joyously strewn with MANY cool creations!

+++++++++++
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Yeah, we really have two problems (the same two problems with MANY subjects).

First, the subject itself states different things in different places about the SAME thing! :unsure:

Second, you can take 1000 people and they will each interpret the SAME thing in MANY different ways! :unsure:

What is one to do???? :confused2:

BOTH occur extensively in Scientology. The fact of number two is well hidden though, because Scientology participants are NOT ALLOWED to discuss case, or "discuss" LRH data outside of a courseroom, qual or ethics (No Verbal Data rule). So, most Church members never discover just how differently he or she considers so much of the "data" from other Church members. Differences in viewpoints are masked in this way. Also, NOBODY dare brings up the examples where Hubbard contradicts himself, or states things in a vague or metaphorical manner.

That is made all the worse by endless enforced "rituals of agreement" (the details of the indoctrination process) such as events, briefings, musters, staff meetings, weekly graduations, mandatory success stories, Chinese School, word clearing, drills, "correction", checksheets, etc.

And, yep, I agree, the Kabbalah IS fascinating. Remember how we talked about the whole "tentacle" thing with beings as related to God? Well, that whole thing of the the various levels of creation and the EMANATIONS of/from God may/can tie in to THAT! :yes:
++++++++++

You know Gadfly, the concept was so big I had to take a break to think about it and get back to you.

Everyone interprets things differently and so communication is flawed no matter what. Perfect communication means being someone or something else. That's an oxymoron in itself - have to be separate to even have a need to communicate.

Our interpretations and concepts of things are always different because our individual paths are all UNIQUE. Which is very cool, considering all the things we have in common.

So back to the Kabbalah. I studied heaps when I was doing Bible study just to get a better understanding of the Bible. Don't remember all of it, but come to think of it, "7" meant completion. Like the 7 days of creation of the world. 12 and 13 had meanings, too. Like the 12 apostles (13 counting Jesus).

It helped my understanding at the time, but I can imagine Jesus' frustration. Here is the Biblical quote for what we spoke of, about the tentacles:

Jesus: "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:4

1st Apostle: What happens in the winter? Do we all die?

Jesus: That's not what I meant...

2nd Apostle: What do you mean abide in you and you in me? That sounds like sex. I'm not gay.

Jesus: That's not what I meant...

3rd Apostle: What do you mean...

Jesus: OKAY THAT'S IT. I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS. LET ME MAKE THIS VERY EASY FOR YOU. JUST ONE RULE:

Love one another, as I have loved you.

1st Apostle: I don't get it.

Jesus: Never mind. Maybe they'll get it in a couple of thousand years...
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Yeah, we really have two problems (the same two problems with MANY subjects).

First, the subject itself states different things in different places about the SAME thing! :unsure:

Second, you can take 1000 people and they will each interpret the SAME thing in MANY different ways! :unsure:

What is one to do???? :confused2:

BOTH occur extensively in Scientology. The fact of number two is well hidden though, because Scientology participants are NOT ALLOWED to discuss case, or "discuss" LRH data outside of a courseroom, qual or ethics (No Verbal Data rule). So, most Church members never discover just how differently he or she considers so much of the "data" from other Church members. Differences in viewpoints are masked in this way. Also, NOBODY dare brings up the examples where Hubbard contradicts himself, or states things in a vague or metaphorical manner.

That is made all the worse by endless enforced "rituals of agreement" (the details of the indoctrination process) such as events, briefings, musters, staff meetings, weekly graduations, mandatory success stories, Chinese School, word clearing, drills, "correction", checksheets, etc.

And, yep, I agree, the Kabbalah IS fascinating. Remember how we talked about the whole "tentacle" thing with beings as related to God? Well, that whole thing of the the various levels of creation and the EMANATIONS of/from God may/can tie in to THAT! :yes:

You know Gadfly, the concept was so big I had to take a break to think about it and get back to you.

Everyone interprets things differently and so communication is flawed no matter what. Perfect communication means being someone or something else. That's an oxymoron in itself - have to be separate to even have a need to communicate.

Our interpretations and concepts of things are always different because our individual paths are all UNIQUE. Which is very cool, considering all the things we have in common.

So back to the Kabbalah. I studied heaps when I was doing Bible study just to get a better understanding of the Bible. Don't remember all of it, but come to think of it, "7" meant completion. Like the 7 days of creation of the world. 12 and 13 had meanings, too. Like the 12 apostles (13 counting Jesus).

It helped my understanding at the time, but I can imagine Jesus' frustration. Here is the Biblical quote for what we spoke of, about the tentacles:

Jesus: "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:4

1st Apostle: What happens in the winter? Do we all die?

Jesus: That's not what I meant...

2nd Apostle: What do you mean abide in you and you in me? That sounds like sex. I'm not gay.

Jesus: That's not what I meant...

3rd Apostle: What do you mean...

Jesus: OKAY THAT'S IT. I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS. LET ME MAKE THIS VERY EASY FOR YOU. JUST ONE RULE:

Love one another, as I have loved you.

1st Apostle: I don't get it.

Jesus: Never mind. Maybe they'll get it in a couple of thousand years...

Fantastic post!!!!!!!! :thumbsup: :happydance:

love one another, as I have loved you

Because, IF YOU REALLY DO THAT, all the thinking about separation and differences will VANISH! Practicing THAT type of "love" disables the "messy thinkingness".

Sorry folks, but you won't get anything even remotely like THAT in Scientology! Hint: That's NOT a "good thing".

+++++++++
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Fantastic post!!!!!!!! :thumbsup: :happydance:

love one another, as I have loved you

Because, IF YOU REALLY DO THAT, all the thinking about separation and differences will VANISH! Practicing THAT type of "love" disables the "messy thinkingness".

Sorry folks, but you won't get anything even remotely like THAT in Scientology! Hint: That's NOT a "good thing".

+++++++++

:D I love you, Gadfly. :yes:
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
With thousands of years to play with "Theology" there's a lot of stuff out there. According to Genesis Man was created on the 6th day...thus 6 is his number. The Bible teaches that man is Spirit, soul and body. When rebellious man claims to be equal with God, as Lucifer did, 666 represents man opposed to God in all that he is.:coolwink:

I will stick with the best, and more specific, historical explanation that fits the thinking and writing during that particular era and location.

Have you read "The Wars of the Jews" by Flavius Josephus?
Just curious.
 
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