Marty Rathbun needs to answer Gerry Armstrong's questions

[Veda]

Gerry Armstrong is not asking for an apology, except as an unimportant item, last on the list.

What can Marty do for Gerry?

1. Communicate to Gerry.

2. Debrief to Gerry, and his legal representatives, on all the lies, black PR, legal actions, Intelligence actions, etc., Marty knows about, that were perpetrated against Gerry, his family and associates.

3. Execute declarations that contain fact elicited in the debrief.

4. Make himself available to testify in any legal proceedings to correct the injustices or situations above.

5. Apologize if he wants.

http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=32752

Jesse Prince wrote, in a 1998 legal affidavit:

"it is incumbent on this and every court to realize the amount of deception, chicanery, lying, manipulation, and outright criminality that Scientology will employ to hide the truth about their criminal activities. They will spend any amount of money to do this. I know because I was part of it for years. I received orders to break the law. I issued orders to break the law. I got others to break the law, and then I helped to hide those criminal activities just as they are hiding them now. In fact the tactic is one of the most coercive used in the Scientology hierarchy; to involve members in criminal acts, which then prevents the person from speaking out."

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/prince.htm

Marty Rathbun's actions regarding Gerry Armstrong may reach into the Scientology deal with, and Scientology's handling of, the USA IRS. If Miscavige and Rathbun are co-conspirators in serious criminal acts, including criminal acts involving the USA federal government, that would explain the Keystone cops puff-ball PR attacks to which each limits himself with regard the other.

 

[Lurker5]

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Why do you think he's so selective? Could it be he has his own agenda which is not being shared with all of us? Since Marty claims to be such a true believer, he knows well the overt-motivator sequence. This tech is basic and drilled into all Scn's. One may stop committing overts, but that doesn't handle overts already committed. Per LRH, there are heavy consequences for not coming clean and doing the right thing. So, why would anyone who is a firm believer of the tech ignore it and play to only his own personal interest?

Common MU on " overts ". Some folks need to re-read " Fair Game ". There is NO SUCH THING AS AN OVERT AGAINST SP.

OSA lives - and operates - by that.

Once OSA slaps the enemy label on a person, group or action there is NO SUCH THING AS COMMITTING AN OVERT AGAINST THEM ( IT ).

Marty, bless his black heart, no doubt still adheres to that insanity.

(And some still do not want to admit it was use of the wording " Fair Game " that was repealed for PR purposes but the actions of the Fair Game PL still remain in force).

 

[Auditor's Toad]

With Marty it is just like in corporate Scientology. It is NEVER about "truth", not as the TOP PRIORITY, and instead, it is about forwarding some agenda, goal, purpose or plan - at the expense of "truth" and what might be "right".

Marty keeps this nutty torch burning that "LRH is some great man" (LRH image BS), and that so much of the "tech is all dandy and wonderful". THAT BELIEF takes seniority over ALL ELSE. It seems the ONLY people Marty comes clean about are people who still somehow entertain the delusion that LRH is some great "intellectual and spiritual master".

Marty is playing a "game" and he plans on winning this game. He follows the SAME LRH advices and policies as when he was in corporate Scientology, and this means "do anything, hurt anyone, and lie to anyone, as long as it forwards MY CURRENT PURPOSES". He was a manipulative piece of shit BEFORE, and he is probably still the same manipulative piece of shit. That doesn't mean that some of what he says isn't "good" in that it HURTS the current organization of Scientology. But, one must keep these things in perspective.

He pushes buttons. He arranges his little sermons to appeal to the flock. And, it is all carefully planned to cause a desired reaction or response (just like in the world of corporate Scientology). "Truth" is irrelevant compared to THOSE things.

Funny how Marty whines about DM " playing games rigged for DM to win " and all Marty is doing is playing games he designed for himself to win.

Still 2 peas in the same stinking pod : scientology.

 

[Awake]

(Common MU on overts &quot;. Some folks need to re-read &quot; Fair Game &quot;. There is <b>NO SUCH THING AS AN OVERT AGAINST SP. ) Oops - my mistake - forgot to think like a CoS Scn. (is that an oxymoron - think and Scn in the same sentence?) But, then again, if now Marty realizes that these people he ran black ops on are NOT SPs............

 

[Veda]

(Common MU on overts &quot;. Some folks need to re-read &quot; Fair Game &quot;. There is <b>NO SUCH THING AS AN OVERT AGAINST SP. ) Oops - my mistake - forgot to think like a CoS Scn. (is that an oxymoron - think and Scn in the same sentence?) But, then again, if now Marty realizes that these people he ran black ops on are NOT SPs............

But it's not just CofS Scientology, it's Scientology. "No rights of any kind" and "dispose of quietly and without sorrow," date back to 1951.

The term, "SP," is avoided by Independent Scientologists, when talking to "wogs," as it's "bad PR," just as the term "Fair Game" was (publicly) avoided after Hubbard's fake "Reform Code" announcement in November 1968.

I have no doubt that Marty thinks that Gerry Armstrong is an "SP," who "besmirched the good name of L. Ron Hubbard."

 

[Awake]

But it's not just CofS Scientology, it's Scientology. &quot;No rights of any kind&quot; and &quot;dispose of quietly and without sorrow,&quot; date back to 1951.

The term, &quot;SP,&quot; is avoided by Independent Scientologists, when talking to &quot;wogs,&quot; as it's &quot;bad PR,&quot; just as the term &quot;Fair Game&quot; was (publicly) avoided after Hubbard's fake &quot;Reform Code&quot; announcement in November 1968.

I have no doubt that Marty thinks that Gerry Armstrong is an &quot;SP,&quot; who &quot;besmirched the good name of L. Ron Hubbard.&quot;

Yeah, I can dig that. Altho, when I was into being an "Independent" Scn for a while after leaving the church, I can't say that that was my attitude. It seems to me that the Scn's I knew/know outside the church (mostly) are not so rabid anymore.

 

[Veda]

Yeah, I can dig that. Altho, when I was into being an "Independent" Scn for a while after leaving the church, I can't say that that was my attitude. It seems to me that the Scn's I knew/know outside the church (mostly) are not so rabid anymore.

Some are not as rabid because they're already transitioning to the next phase (without even knowing it sometimes), which is moving beyond and away from Scientology doctrine and ceasing to be Scientologists.

How long were you an Independent Scientologist? I ask, because I've found it to be a transitional stage for most, some take months, some years, but only a tiny minority are Scientology "lifers."

Right now there's an attempt by some of the (apparent) "lifers," like Marty Rathbun, to create the impression that most people, leaving corporate Scientology, remain Scientologists permanently, since it's "the sensible thing to do."

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Absolutely.

The fact that this has not so far happened is one reason I, and probably many others, have grave reservations (to put it mildly) about what Rathbun intends.

well said.

 

[Jachs]

I think if you asked him you would find that David Mayo doesn't think so highly of LRH anymore.

With the venom ive read on martys blog from Rinder about David Mayo id say there are still comparable 'beliefs' held in agreement by DM and Rinder about the Mayo's.

Ah What is greatness? Keeping your mouth shut, each time you destroy a person of good will and "get away with it".

When the dirty truth comes out i think well hear a sweet silence.

 

[Awake]

How long were you an Independent Scientologist? I ask, because I've found it to be a transitional stage for most, some takes months, some years, but only a tiny minority are Scientology "lifers."

I was actively an Independent Scn for about 3 1/2 - 4 yrs. Went right into the FZ from the CoS. It's taken me that long to destim and be able to accept the fact that LRH perpetrated a complete con on everyone. And I thought I was smarter than that.....

 

[Veda]

I was actively an Independent Scn for about 3 1/2 - 4 yrs. Went right into the FZ from the CoS. It's taken me that long to destim and be able to accept the fact that LRH perpetrated a complete con on everyone. And I thought I was smarter than that.....

Thanks. That's a pretty typical amount of time. It usually does take a while.

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Some one mentioned the ' SP " term not being bandied around much by the Freezoners or Independants or whatever one cares to call themself with their version of scientology.

Around here the term " hater " gets throw around a fair amount.

Does anyone else get amused at hard core scientolgy thinly veiled as "something else"?

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Around these parts it seems "hater!" has replaced " SP" as the label of choice.

Does anyone else get tickled at the attempts of some people to try to thinly veil hard core scientology by changing a few words here and there?

 

[Free to shine]

Gerry says on OCMB:

http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=32752&view=unread#unread

Marty Rathbun wrote:
From: [ ]@[ ] [mailto:[ ]]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 9:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Apology Not Needed or Wanted

Gerry,
I have a hard time following your communication. There are some critical differences between you and I:
a) You were willing to lie and did. I'm not.
b) You decided to become a victim, and relish it so much you've continued to be one to this day. Everything you utter is through the prism of a victim and to the degree that it is refracted as such, it is false. I am devoted to helping people from entering the dark, dank dungeon of victim-hood.
c) You sold out twenty-three years ago - and are apparently still mad at yourself for the indelible taint it left. I will never sell out.
If you made a genuine reach to reverse the downward spiral a-c set you on then I'd be glad to assist in your about-face and ascent.
Marty

By saying that he had a hard time following my communication, which was simply written and easy for people of average intelligence to read, Marty implies that my communication was illogical. This is a falsehood that Marty has used elsewhere as well, and other Scientologists use, to justify their total failure and refusal to communicate a logical answer.

Marty’s answer is illogical, in addition to being dishonest and cruel, because he imposes a set of impossible tasks for me to perform before he will assist me to correct the injustices he perpetrated. He doesn’t say how he will assist me, but how I want him to assist me is broadly described in my letter he was answering, and narrowed down to the four easy tasks for him listed above.

Marty says he will know when I’ve accomplished his set of impossible tasks when he observes what he describes as a genuine reach from me to reverse the downward spiral he also says he observes I’ve been set on. This is itself an obviously impossible task for me to perform because there is no dwindling spiral I’ve been set on. Having to reach to reverse what doesn’t exist is the kind of impossible, and frankly degrading and psychopathic tasks victimizers insist their victims perform to stop the victimizing.

Marty’s impossible tasks for me that I must perform before he will consider that I have made a genuine reach to reverse the downward spiral he says I’m on include: accept that lies are true and the truth is lies; stop relishing what I don’t relish; stop being what I am not; stop being what I am, which relevantly includes being his victim; stop uttering everything I utter through a nonexistent prism; stop being mad at myself when I’m not; stop being indelibly tainted by nothing.

Marty postulates me into a dark, dank dungeon of victim-hood, where it is clear he puts his and his cult’s wog victims. He says he’s devoted to keeping people from entering his dark, dank dungeon, which makes sense because people might stumble across the victims he’s postulated into his dungeon. His assertion that everything I utter is through some prism he defines, and that everything I utter is false, is the logic of a psychopath.

So Marty has answered me, and although his answer was dishonest, contemptuous and illogical, it was an answer. It hasn’t changed and doesn’t change what I want and need Marty to do, nor our relationship.

I am not blind to the fact that doing the decent, responsible, right and beautiful thing regarding me and other wogs he has victimized is not in what Marty considers his best interests. It might never be in what he considers his best interests to do the decent, responsible, right and beautiful thing about his victims. Lots of people, I’m quite sure, harden their hearts and never do this thing their whole lives.

It is possible, and not all that hard, for Marty to see that doing this thing is in his best interests, because, of course, it is. Whatever fear it is that has kept him his whole adult life from doing that good thing can be shown to be utterly illusory just by doing it.

I realize that if Marty were to unharden his heart toward his victims, because of its adamantine condition as a result of decades of hardening, it would be a Damascus Road sort of incident for him. It’s very rare, almost never heard of among people with his condition, but I still believe it’s within their understanding and power, and certainly well within Everything’s possibilities.

It is a condition that he really is responsible for. The victimizer always tries to make his victims responsible for their conditions. But the victimizer really is responsible for his condition as a victimizer. It’s an extremely difficult task for the victims of many victimizers to stop being victims. It isn’t accomplished with psychopathic semantics like Marty uses about victims in his answer, while the victimizer keeps right on victimizing them.

For the victimizers to stop being victimizers, that’s as easy as it gets. Victimizers don’t keep being victimizers because stopping is beyond their comprehension or control, or an impossible or even difficult task. They keep victimizing because it serves their purposes, that is, it's pro-survival, and, because it serves their purposes, can even be fun, and a game.

Marty is not too unintelligent to know what it would take – almost a reversal of the impossible tasks he has laid before me. And he’s intelligent enough to know what a Damascus Road moment would be for him. In the Scientology v. Armstrong, et al. war, of course, such a moment for Marty is on the legal stage and quite dramatic.

 

[Pooks]

Gerry says on OCMB:

http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=32752&view=unread#unread

Have any of you had any actual communications with Gerry. He can be rather difficult to communicate with. I'm putting this as nicely as I can.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

People who think Miscavige is the sole reason that Scientology is an abusive self servicing cult

... get an apology,

those who know Scientology y is exactly what Hubbard intended it to be,

an abusive self servicing cult

... do not.

 

[Auditor's Toad]

People who think Miscavige is the sole reason that Scientology is an abusive self servicing cult

... get an apology,

those who know Scientology y is exactly what Hubbard intended it to be,

an abusive self servicing cult

... do not.

Nice summation !

 

[TheSneakster]

I'm sure this is going to go over like a lead balloon:

I cannot find any definition of the word "need" that makes the thread title correct.

As I understand the various documents I've seen so far, Gerald Armstrong took the private personal papers of Ron Hubbard with which he was entrusted (can you say "fiduciary duty") and gave access to these materials to lawyers determined to get Hubbard for Mr. Armstrong's personal profit.

The above fact seems to be blithely glossed over by Mr. Armstrong's cheerleading section.

Furthermore, Mr. Armstrong has made numerous and repeated public accusations of criminal conduct on Mark Rathbun's part for which he did not and still does not have even the slightest factual evidence.

Nope, Mark Rathbun doesn't owe Mr. Armstrong so much as the time of day.

 

[dianaclass8]

Gerry Armstrong is not asking for an apology, except as an unimportant item, last on the list.



Jesse Prince wrote, in a 1998 legal affidavit:

"it is incumbent on this and every court to realize the amount of deception, chicanery, lying, manipulation, and outright criminality that Scientology will employ to hide the truth about their criminal activities. They will spend any amount of money to do this. I know because I was part of it for years. I received orders to break the law. I issued orders to break the law. I got others to break the law, and then I helped to hide those criminal activities just as they are hiding them now. In fact the tactic is one of the most coercive used in the Scientology hierarchy; to involve members in criminal acts, which then prevents the person from speaking out."http://www.lisamcpherson.org/prince.htm

Marty Rathbun's actions regarding Gerry Armstrong may reach into the Scientology deal with, and Scientology's handling of, the USA IRS. If Miscavige and Rathbun are co-conspirators in serious criminal acts, including criminal acts involving the USA federal government, that would explain the Keystone cops puff-ball PR attacks to which each limits himself with regard the other.

Jesse Prince did not say anything either, nothing that lead to any arrests and to the demise of the very Church him, Marty and the rest helped creating. Neither him or Marty or anyone else who can give information are willing to come clean.