The State of Clear

[Moosejewels]

Like this ?????

[video=youtube;YGNHa8IH91k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGNHa8IH91k[/video]

This looks and sounds familiar. What year was this created ?

I'm trying to figure out my status relating to $cientology when

this abomination occured.

 

[Auditor's Toad]

<snip>
"Turd Polishing" is an interesting choice of words when one considers that the thing being ostensibly "polished" in scientology is the Spiritual Self.
I guess it all depends on your considerations about Self.

Dear theeti-weeti one,

Your post above is an exact repost of a previous post and it was answered in detail your delusion that scn had much of anything to do with any " Spiritual Self " but a whole lot to do with scamming people out of some serious chunks of cash.

I do not consider it worth my while to scroll back and find it for you. You didn't get it then so doubtlessly you would not get it now either.

Go back to drinking the House Kool - Aid as your are sometimes funny while glugging that.

The Toad.

PS - note to others ; Does that repeat his own posts with regularity?

 

[Panda Termint]

Dear theeti-weeti one,

Your post above is an exact repost of a previous post and it was answered in detail your delusion that scn had much of anything to do with any " Spiritual Self " but a whole lot to do with scamming people out of some serious chunks of cash.

I do not consider it worth my while to scroll back and find it for you. You didn't get it then so doubtlessly you would not get it now either.

Go back to drinking the House Kool - Aid as your are sometimes funny while glugging that.

The Toad.

PS - note to others ; Does that repeat his own posts with regularity?

Personal insults? Really?

I deliberately repeated myself, I thought you might get it the second time around. It was obviously just wishful thinking on my part.

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Personal insults? Really?

I deliberately repeated myself, I thought you might get it the second time around. It was obviously just wishful thinking on my part.

PT : Hopeless. Talk to the hand.
( or go do some polishing )

 

[Panda Termint]

PT : Hopeless. Talk to the hand.
( or go do some polishing )

Pick up your game, mate, don't go all hopeless on us.

 

[DagwoodGum]

Dear theeti-weeti one,

Your post above is an exact repost of a previous post and it was answered in detail your delusion that scn had much of anything to do with any " Spiritual Self " but a whole lot to do with scamming people out of some serious chunks of cash.

I do not consider it worth my while to scroll back and find it for you. You didn't get it then so doubtlessly you would not get it now either.

Go back to drinking the House Kool - Aid as your are sometimes funny while glugging that.

The Toad.

PS - note to others ; Does that repeat his own posts with regularity?

PS - note to others ; Does that repeat his own posts with regularity?

I am not that familiar with most peoples posting patterns. I usually suspect that someone is stumbling with their reply when they start repeating themselves. However I'm actually surprised that those of us who post our dissatisfation with Hubtardian double talk and his failure to create the states of being that he promissed which drew most of us in, don't get hit with much more flak than we do. Usually I find that if I admit to thinking outside of the box I get hit with much more counter intention, to use Hubtardian terminalogy, than I get hit with on this site. It seems that the veterans of this board have successfully dealt with the shriveling army of Hubtardian trolls, not that I think anyone on this thread is one - I really don't, to the point that they've f****d off for the most part.

 

[Panda Termint]

I am not that familiar with most peoples posting patterns. I usually suspect that someone is stumbling with their reply when they start repeating themselves. However I'm actually surprised that those of us who post our dissatisfation with Hubtardian double talk and his failure to create the states of being that he promissed which drew most of us in, don't get hit with much more flak than we do. Usually I find that if I admit to thinking outside of the box I get hit with much more counter intention, to use Hubtardian terminalogy, than I get hit with on this site. It seems that the veterans of this board have successfully dealt with the shriveling army of Hubtardian trolls, not that I think anyone on this thread is one - I really don't, to the point that they've f****d off for the most part.

Are you kidding? Let's see... who might be the most prolific "repeater of self" here on ESMB? Any takers?

Hint: this person has knowingly repeated Hubbard's hypnotic commands more than any other in the known Interverse.

 

[DagwoodGum]

Are you kidding? Let's see... who might be the most prolific "repeater of self" here on ESMB? Any takers?

Hint: this person has knowingly repeated Hubbard's hypnotic commands more than any other in the known Interverse.

I guess that I have no idea what you're even saying at this point, but I'm all ears...

 

[Panda Termint]

Let's give it a minute and see if there are any takers, shall we?

If you really have no idea, I'm referencing this comment of yours: "I usually suspect that someone is stumbling with their reply when they start repeating themselves..."

 

[DagwoodGum]

Let's give it a minute and see if there are any takers, shall we?

If you really have no idea, I'm referencing this comment of yours: "I usually suspect that someone is stumbling with their reply when they start repeating themselves..."

That's true, I usually find that saying the same line over and over indicates a short circuit going on. I didn't accuse you of that, just a statement of observation. Did you take it personally? I'm not that familiar with your posts to accuse you, so I wasn't even if it seemed so. Just that people that are stumbling with their response often start babbling repeats.

 

[Veda]

-snip-

You seem to imply that I was aware of many things which none of us were aware of at the time. There's no need to "look the other way or put up with" things that are never seen because they're hidden.

-snip-

Hidden? Most of the things I mentioned weren't hidden. Some were. Many were not, and some were broadly publicized by Scientology for Scientologists.

1) You were not aware of the 1969 SP Declare of John McMaster and his rapid descent into non-person-hood.

2) You were not aware of the heyday of "Source," with people returning from the "Flagship" as - sometimes screaming - fanatics for "Standard Tech."

3) You were not aware of Quentin Hubbard's suicide and his rapid erasure from Scientology history.

4) You were not aware of the inception of the RPF and the RPF's RPF in 1974.

5) You were not aware of the discovery, a couple of years later, that taking LSD made someone into a "zombie" who, to sweat out the "LSD crystals," would need to run around in a rubber suit.

6) You were not aware of the sentencing of Mary Sue Hubbard to federal prison, and her subsequent Scientological non-person-hood erasure.

7) You were not aware of the looting of the Missions in 1982.

8) You were not aware of the mass SP declares that followed.

9) You were not aware of the "Finance Dictator."

10) You were not aware of the release of the 1983 mass mailing, "The Story of a Squirrel," that denounced David Mayo as a "darling of the psychs."

11) You were not aware of the "LRH causatively discarded the body because it was an impediment to research" 1986 death event.

12) You were not aware of the banishment of "Ron's most trusted aide" and "first loyal officer," Pat Broeker, into quickly forgotten Scientological non-person vapor.

13) You were not aware of the publication, in 1987, of the book 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?' by a former Class 7&8 auditor and Mission holder.

14) You were not aware of, also in 1987, the publication of the book, 'Barefaced Messiah'.

15) And, as the new millennium began, you were not aware of the Internet.

OK. I could see, if you were a public person, not being aware of the RPF and the RPF's RPF, and I could see, if one were a TRs-IN on-purpose "Bridge"-enthusiast, who doesn't visit "wog" bookstores or talk to "SPs," not being aware of some other things, but most of it?

How? Were you in the Sea Org this entire time? That might explain it.

If you weren't in the Sea Org, then it's much more plausible that you would be, at least somewhat, "aware of" most of these items, but dismiss them as either unimportant, or as "entheta."

But I'll take your word for it that you really were unaware.

And congratulations on becoming aware.

 

[Panda Termint]

Veda, I said I was unaware of *many* (not all) of the things you referenced. Unfortunately, like most scientologists at the time those few things I was aware of, such as the LSD Sweatout (which I did), MSH going to jail (but not what you describe as "unpersonhood") and the Mayo Declare which I accepted as true, as did most scientologists. I bought the official scio spin on these 3 things. I knew nothing of the other things you listed, I was too busy being a scientologist, mea culpa.

Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing but dial back on the strawman arguments, will ya? Let's try to keep the discussion real, we're all much smarter after the fact.

PS: I also heard the story of Hubbard "causitively discarding his body", I just saw that upon re-reading your post. I had my own thoughts about that at the time but we won't bother with those.

 

[DagwoodGum]

Veda, I said I was unaware of *many* (not all) of the things you referenced. Unfortunately, like most scientologists at the time those few things I was aware of, such as the LSD Sweatout (which I did), MSH going to jail (but not what you describe as "unpersonhood") and the Mayo Declare which I accepted as true, as did most scientologists. I bought the official scio spin on these 3 things. I knew nothing of the other things you listed, I was too busy being a scientologist, mea culpa.

Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing but dial back on the strawman arguments, will ya? Let's try to keep the discussion real, we're all much smarter after the fact.

"we're all much smarter after the fact."

I don't find that to be entirely true.

 

[apocalyptic]

Veda,....

....Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing but dial back on the strawman arguments, will ya? Let's try to keep the discussion real, we're all much smarter after the fact.

There are 'no' strawman arguments present in Veda's post Panda. And the discussion 'is' real. And adding one truth ('we're all much smarter after the fact, via the hindsight thing') doesn't trump the first two errors (and or honest misconceptions).

Apocalyptic

you are an excellent spokesperson for yourself Panda. your sincerity is clear. its the absence of factual objective authenticity that tends to get you twisted sometimes. which tends to get us all (sometimes).

thus please do continue, as true education is not only life 'in' speech, it's life 'as' speech. as yours is in yours.

 

[Panda Termint]

I don't find that to be entirely true.

Agreed, just some of us.

 

[Panda Termint]

There are no strawman arguments present in Veda's post Panda. And the discussion is 'real'. And adding one truth ('we're all much smarter after the fact') doesn't trump the first two errors (and or simple misconceptions).

Apocalyptic

you are an excellent spokesperson for yourself Panda. your sincerity is clear. its the absence of factual objective authenticity that tends to get you twisted sometimes. which tends to get us all (sometimes).

Maybe you have a misunderstood on strawman argument? Maybe, I do. Veda is assigning meaning to my words which are not present. Read the sequence of posts and see if you can see how that might be so. Pick it up at post #911.... that's right, 911 !!!

 

[Panda Termint]

That's true, I usually find that saying the same line over and over indicates a short circuit going on. I didn't accuse you of that, just a statement of observation. Did you take it personally? I'm not that familiar with your posts to accuse you, so I wasn't even if it seemed so. Just that people that are stumbling with their response often start babbling repeats.

No, I didn't take it personally. I don't take much of anything personally when it comes to the Internet and Message Boards. I don't post here for my own benefit (although I do enjoy both posting and reading the many worthwhile discussions here), I post here for the benefit of others.

 

[apocalyptic]

Veda is assigning meaning to my words which are not present.

Everyone does that Panda. Assigning to words, meanings which are not present, (from the authors point of view) is a near-universal 'human' pastime. And Mr. Hubbard made an incredible fortune as a consequence of his knowing/understanding that. What are you? chopped liver? (old american joke of affection, please forgive if offended)

we have reviewed 'your' suggestion/request that 'we' review this thread from post 911 forward, to get a greater sense of context, and we have concluded that reading said 40 posts is above and beyond our call of duty (being functionally unnecessary & thus obsolete).

We've been reading Veda's posts for just enough years to know what it is he has to say. And the way he says it. Which he says with factual-objective-authenticity. We thinks.

And what we thinks we are, we are.

Until we thinks again.

We remain.

Apocalyptic

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Hidden? Most of the things I mentioned weren't hidden. Some were. Many were not, and some were broadly publicized by Scientology for Scientologists.

1) You were not aware of the 1969 SP Declare of John McMaster and his rapid descent into non-person-hood.

2) You were not aware of the heyday of "Source," with people returning from the "Flagship" as - sometimes screaming - fanatics for "Standard Tech."

3) You were not aware of Quentin Hubbard's suicide and his rapid erasure from Scientology history.

4) You were not aware of the inception of the RPF and the RPF's RPF in 1974.

5) You were not aware of the discovery, a couple of years later, that taking LSD made someone into a "zombie" who, to sweat out the "LSD crystals," would need to run around in a rubber suit.

6) You were not aware of the sentencing of Mary Sue Hubbard to federal prison, and her subsequent Scientological non-person-hood erasure.

7) You were not aware of the looting of the Missions in 1982.

8) You were not aware of the mass SP declares that followed.

9) You were not aware of the "Finance Dictator."

10) You were not aware of the release of the 1983 mass mailing, "The Story of a Squirrel," that denounced David Mayo as a "darling of the psychs."

11) You were not aware of the "LRH causatively discarded the body because it was an impediment to research" 1986 death event.

12) You were not aware of the banishment of "Ron's most trusted aide" and "first loyal officer," Pat Broeker, into quickly forgotten Scientological non-person vapor.

13) You were not aware of the publication, in 1987, of the book 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?' by a former Class 7&8 auditor and Mission holder.

14) You were not aware of, also in 1987, the publication of the book, 'Barefaced Messiah'.

15) And, as the new millennium began, you were not aware of the Internet.

OK. I could see, if you were a public person, not being aware of the RPF and the RPF's RPF, and I could see, if one were a TRs-IN on-purpose "Bridge"-enthusiast, who doesn't visit "wog" bookstores or talk to "SPs," not being aware of some other things, but most of it?

How? Were you in the Sea Org this entire time? That might explain it.

If you weren't in the Sea Org, then it's much more plausible that you would be, at least somewhat, "aware of" most of these items, but dismiss them as either unimportant, or as "entheta."

But I'll take your word for it that you really were unaware.

And congratulations on becoming aware.

I haven't been following this thread, but I saw this list and I wanted to comment on it. For the record, I did not know about numbers:

1. I didn't even know who John McMasters was.

3. I didn't know Quinton committed suicide. At the time it wasn't even mentioned but a few of us who did know were told it was the CIA that killed him.

7. I didn't know about the looting of the missions.

8. I didn't know about the mass SP declarations.

13. I didn't know about the book Madman or Messiah.

14. I didn't know about the book Barefaced Messiah.

15. And believe it or not, I knew about the internet but had never been on it for anything. I didn't even own a computer back then.

But I have no doubt that had I heard of these things I would have accepted the Church's party line on each one of them when I was still in.

When a person is in Scientology they are in because they have accepted to a greater or lessor degree the Church's narrative on LRH and Scientology and the Church.

The more they readily accept the narrative the more dedicated they are.

When they start to question the narrative things begin to gradually unravel.

It may take a long time for this to happen, or it may happen fast.

Some may change their narrative of the Church but not the Tech. So there are Freezone or outties or whatever a person calls themselve who still believe in the workability of the Tech.

As for me, the crazinest things I saw throughout all my days I had accepted as simply caused by people who were unhatted or who didn't really understand the tech or purpose of Scientology.

That explanation fit my narrative.

Now that I am out, I look at everything with an entirely different narrative.

I look at Scientology now as simply applied Nietzschean religious philosophy.

Looking at it this way explains the whole narrative to me. I could change my mind about the reasons why and then I would look at the narrative in a different way.

My point is that it isn't the facts that a person hears, it it how they interpret those facts.

And a person always interprets the facts he gets in the context of the narrative he believes or accepts.

That's why I think just giving the facts to Scientologists doesn't usually work if they have already accounted for disagreeable facts in their narrative.

I'm not sure what causes a person to change his or her narrative. I don't think it is a set formula for everyone.

But I do think that how a person looks at facts about Sccientology while they are still accepting the narrative that got them in Scientology versus how they look at those same facts about Scientology after they have changed their narrative and left are two entirely separate things.

Same facts, but interpreted differently because of a different narrative.

It isn't a question of a higher or lessor awareness, it is a question of what narrative a person has accepted for his or her self.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Panda Termint]

Everyone does that Panda. Assigning to words, meanings which are not present, (from the authors point of view) is a near-universal 'human' pastime. And Mr. Hubbard made an incredible fortune as a consequence of his knowing/understanding that. What are you? chopped liver? (old american joke of affection, please forgive if offended)

we have reviewed 'your' suggestion/request that 'we' review this thread from post 911 forward, to get a greater sense of context, and we have concluded that reading said 40 posts is above and beyond our call of duty (being functionally unnecessary & thus obsolete).

We've been reading Veda's posts for just enough years to know what it is he has to say. And the way he says it. Which he says with factual-objective-authenticity. We thinks.

And what we thinks we are, we are.

Until we thinks again.

Apocalyptic

OK, whatever floats your boat.