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The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

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I like both kinds of music

Country and Western

[video=youtube;RFKdXV63_Cc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFKdXV63_Cc[/video]

here's two of the four

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and then just pictures of me an' my friends

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Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

CarmeloOrchards said:
My copy of Tex Ritter singing this is a little different. he says it's a long way from Mexico.

Having been raised around milking cows and cattle, I've heard that song hundreds of times since I was knee high to a grasshopper. Nothing about Idaho.

[video=youtube;NvH0jgF6tW8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvH0jgF6tW8[/video]

jimson weed aka stinkweed

Idaho is not mentioned
Click to expand...

I learned the song when I was 8 years old off of a 78 rpm Tex Ritter vinyl record. For over 60 years, I've sung that song from time to time in the shower or out in the jacuzzi or things like that. I always sang Idaho. I picked the Kingston Trio to link to here on the Apollo thread because it had the best sound recording. I just checked that recording and at 1:44 into the song, Idaho is used as the destination. There are two destinations, Wyoming in the main refrain and Idaho in this one particular stanza.

Check it our for yourself. I just played your Tex Ritter video above and at :54 in your own video, Tex clearly mentions that the doggies are being made ready for Idaho! If you think he is saying Mexico you need a hearing aid. Its not muffled or indistinct; he says Idaho very clearly. Just think about it, probably no American cattle drive was ever made to take doggies to Mexico. That doesn't make any sense. Can you imagine Texas cattleman driving cattle down to Mexico between 1867 and 1887. If something like that has ever occurred, it would be under unusual circumstances, perhaps some kind of deal between the governments; If it ever happened, which I seriously doubt, it would not be a common occurance of the type written up in a famous Western ballad.

Can you refernce the point where Tex sings, "its a long way to Mexico"? I just played the entire song over and there is no such lyric is in it. Don't forget, as Face pointed out, the cattle drives started when Kansas became a state. The idea was to take the cattle from Texas through Kansas on up to Wyoming (or Idaho) to help develop Kansas and develop the Western USA. The lyric, "its a long way to Mexico" is not even true. Mexico and Texas border each other. A drive to Wyoming or Idaho is a long distance and requires going through intervening states.
Lakey
 
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Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

lkwdblds said:
... Can you imagine Texas cattleman driving cattle down to Mexico between 1867 and 1887. ...
Click to expand...

Easily. Texans have always had extensive cross border relationships. Much of the population is Hispanic and many residents have dual nationality. People have been transiting the Rio Grand in both directions as long as their have been humans settled in North America. The King Ranch, established in 1852, is one of the largest cattle operations in the u.s. and it borders Mexico. Many of the traditional families of cattlemen of Texas are of Mexican ancestry and/or speak Spanish fluently. That is not a recent phenomenon. Economic relationships in Texas transit the border and always have. Border commerce is one of the principle drivers of the Texas economy and always has been. Cattle drives are about taking stock to market, not about hollywood movies. Cattle drives to Mexico requires no stretch of the imagination.


Mark A. Baker
 
Get a long little dogie

Why Idaho?
excerpted from:

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=67615


"Git Along, Little Dogies," in a version close to that in Lomax, 1910, is in the DT. Notes on the song have appeared in scattered threads in Mudcat, but the earliest version known is not posted in its entirety.
This song was first noted down by Owen Wister in his Journal, February, 1893, at Brownwood, Texas. "I have come upon a unique song... and I transcribe it faithfully. Only a cowboy could have produced such an effusion. It has the earmark of entire genuineness." The lyrics are reproduced in John I. White, "Git Along, Little Dogies." The identical lyrics (with music as sung by Frank Goodwyn) are in Fife and Fife, "Cowboy and Western Songs," pp. 206-207.


An article by Sharlot M. Hall in "Out West" for March, 1908, has the "beef" verses used by Lomax in 1910, in different form. Hall said it was an "Old Trail-song of the 'Eighties."

Get along, get along, little dogie,
You're going to be a beef steer by-and-by.
Your mother she was raised way down in Texas,
Where the jimson weed and sand-burrs grow;
Now we'll fill you up on prickly pear and cholla,
Till you're ready for the trail to Idaho.
Oh! you'll be soup for Uncle Sam's Injuns;
It's "Beef, heap beef" you hear 'em cry;
Get along, get along, little dogie,
For the Injuns they'll eat you by-and-by.

After the Indians were herded up and the buffalo were gone, cattle were driven up to locations in the northern tier of States, Wyoming, etc., to keep them from starving. This was only partly successful; many of the Indians still died of starvation and disease.
How long these drives to provide beef lasted, I don't know, but I have postcards showing the distribution of beef to Indians at the slaughter point at Cheyenne Agency, South Dakota, 1903.

As for Mexico, I meant moving them from Mexico, north.

lkwdblds said:
I learned the song when I was 8 years old off of a 78 rpm Tex Ritter vinyl record. For over 60 years, I've sung that song from time to time in the shower or out in the jacuzzi or things like that. I always sang Idaho. I picked the Kingston Trio to link to here on the Apollo thread because it had the best sound recording. I just checked that recording and at 1:44 into the song, Idaho is used as the destination. There are two destinations, Wyoming in the main refrain and Idaho in this one particular stanza.

Check it our for yourself. I just played your Tex Ritter video above and at :54 in your own video, Tex clearly mentions that the doggies are being made ready for Idaho! If you think he is saying Mexico you need a hearing aid. Its not muffled or indistinct; he says Idaho very clearly. Just think about it, probably no American cattle drive was ever made to take doggies to Mexico. That doesn't make any sense. Can you imagine Texas cattleman driving cattle down to Mexico between 1867 and 1887. If something like that has ever occurred, it would be under unusual circumstances, perhaps some kind of deal between the governments; If it ever happened, which I seriously doubt, it would not be a common occurance of the type written up in a famous Western ballad.

Can you refernce the point where Tex sings, "its a long way to Mexico"? I just played the entire song over and there is no such lyric is in it. Don't forget, as Face pointed out, the cattle drives started when Kansas became a state. The idea was to take the cattle from Texas through Kansas on up to Wyoming (or Idaho) to help develop Kansas and develop the Western USA. The lyric, "its a long way to Mexico" is not even true. Mexico and Texas border each other. A drive to Wyoming or Idaho is a long distance and requires going through intervening states.
Lakey
Click to expand...
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Mark A. Baker said:
Easily. Texans have always had extensive cross border relationships. Much of the population is Hispanic and many residents have dual nationality. People have been transiting the Rio Grand in both directions as long as their have been humans settled in North America. The King Ranch, established in 1852, is one of the largest cattle operations in the u.s. and it borders Mexico. Many of the traditional families of cattlemen of Texas are of Mexican ancestry and/or speak Spanish fluently. That is not a recent phenomenon. Economic relationships in Texas transit the border and always have. Border commerce is one of the principle drivers of the Texas economy and always has been. Cattle drives are about taking stock to market, not about hollywood movies. Cattle drives to Mexico requires no stretch of the imagination.


Mark A. Baker
Click to expand...

I take exception to some of your statements and conclusions.

I did not say that there were never any cattle drives from Texas to Mexico. I suggested that they might have occurred under certain circumstances probably arising between the two governments. You don't know for sure and neither do I. Cattle drives between the USA and Mexico are DEFINITELY not mentioned in the song "Get along you little doggies". That is a fact. Play all the versions that you want but Mexico is just not in the lyrics and Idaho is in the lyrics!

In the 1860's northern Mexico was not heavily settled and a lot of Indian tribes were operating there. Taking a valuable herd of cattle down their seems like it would be pretty risky, certainly it would be more risky than driving the herd through Kansas and then into Wyoming or Idaho. Today, its not even safe for U.S. citizens to drive to many parts of Mexico. We took a lot of territory from Mexico in the war of 1845-46 and to this day, some Mexicans still resent that. In the 1860's that war was only 20 years earlier and Mexican resentment was likely greater than it is now.

I would think a private Texas rancher with a family and a ranch to run would think twice about carrying out a cattle drive to sell beef in Mexico for a profit. The rancher would have to send a party of 15 or so of his cowboys down there (probably some of them being his Sons or Brothers). Between hostile Mexicans, still upset over the war, hostile Indian tribes and Mexican outlaws and bandits, it seems to be that there would be a much higher chance that the cowboys would be attacked and killed and their herd stolen. This is not fact but just my opinion.

If there were cattle drives down to Mexico, I would think that the two governments would make the arrangements rather than just a private rancher. Perhaps an attachment of U.S. Army soldiers or even Mexican soldiers might ride with the cattle drive as part of the arrangements.

The USA was a richer country and was safer to travel in. A private cattleman could probably get a higher price for his cattle and be safer in transit in the USA so why would he take the added risk of driving herds to Mexico? Perhaps some very wealthy Mexican Rancheros would pay much more per head than the rancher could get in the USA and also could guarantee safety by providing professional armed guards to ride with the herd. Maybe such things occured frequently. I don't know.

Even so, as I said before, even if herds were driven regularly down into Mexico, the logistics were somewhat different and those types of drives would not become the inspiration for a Western American ballad and folk song such as "Get Along You Little Doggies." We had 20 years of big cattle drives starting in Texas and heading through Kansas and then up to Wyoming. These are what inspired our music, not cattle drives down into Mexico!
Lakey
 
Re: Get a long little dogie

CarmeloOrchards said:
Why Idaho?
excerpted from:

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=67615


"Git Along, Little Dogies," in a version close to that in Lomax, 1910, is in the DT. Notes on the song have appeared in scattered threads in Mudcat, but the earliest version known is not posted in its entirety.
This song was first noted down by Owen Wister in his Journal, February, 1893, at Brownwood, Texas. "I have come upon a unique song... and I transcribe it faithfully. Only a cowboy could have produced such an effusion. It has the earmark of entire genuineness." The lyrics are reproduced in John I. White, "Git Along, Little Dogies." The identical lyrics (with music as sung by Frank Goodwyn) are in Fife and Fife, "Cowboy and Western Songs," pp. 206-207.


An article by Sharlot M. Hall in "Out West" for March, 1908, has the "beef" verses used by Lomax in 1910, in different form. Hall said it was an "Old Trail-song of the 'Eighties."

Get along, get along, little dogie,
You're going to be a beef steer by-and-by.
Your mother she was raised way down in Texas,
Where the jimson weed and sand-burrs grow;
Now we'll fill you up on prickly pear and cholla,
Till you're ready for the trail to Idaho.
Oh! you'll be soup for Uncle Sam's Injuns;
It's "Beef, heap beef" you hear 'em cry;
Get along, get along, little dogie,
For the Injuns they'll eat you by-and-by.

After the Indians were herded up and the buffalo were gone, cattle were driven up to locations in the northern tier of States, Wyoming, etc., to keep them from starving. This was only partly successful; many of the Indians still died of starvation and disease.
How long these drives to provide beef lasted, I don't know, but I have postcards showing the distribution of beef to Indians at the slaughter point at Cheyenne Agency, South Dakota, 1903.

As for Mexico, I meant moving them from Mexico, north.
Click to expand...

Thanks for spelling out the words "sand burrs" which occur right after Jimson weed. I could never figure out what they were singing, it sounded like "sanders" to me. I really think that it was the big cattle drives down to Panama which were the main motivation for all the Western Folk Songs concerning cattle drives.

The French were still active in Panama in the late 1860's and could pay more per head than what was paid in the US. They were used to eating beef and would pay any price for good American beef. This is a little known fact which has been hushed up by the U.S. Government.
Lakey
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Mark A. Baker said:
People have been transiting the Rio Grand in both directions as long as their have been humans settled in North America.

Mark A. Baker
Click to expand...



lkwdblds said:
Taking a valuable herd of cattle down their seems like it would be pretty risky, certainly it would be more risky than driving the herd through Kansas and then into Wyoming or Idaho.
Click to expand...

They're seems to be a confusion as to when to type "there" and "their."
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey,

Let me clarify several things.

For some reason I thought you meant driving cattle from California to Idaho. That never happened. Seedstock was originally herded into Idaho from Washington, Oregon and Wyoming but it was not a Cattle Drive to Market. Some Texas cattle over the years was herded up to Nebraska, Wyoming and even Montana as Seedstock and later some of the herds developed from that Seedstock provided some of the Idaho Seedstock.

All of the original cattle in Texas came from northern Mexico where there were huge cattle ranches. Up until the latter 1800’s cattle moved back and forth across the Texas/Mexico the border all the time and to this day, some Mexican Cattle are trucked and fed in US Feedlots and US beef is exported to Mexico.


Face :)
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

afaceinthecrowd said:
Lakey,

Let me clarify several things.

For some reason I thought you meant driving cattle from California to Idaho. That never happened. Seedstock was originally herded into Idaho from Washington, Oregon and Wyoming but it was not a Cattle Drive to Market. Some Texas cattle over the years was herded up to Nebraska, Wyoming and even Montana as Seedstock and later some of the herds developed from that Seedstock provided some of the Idaho Seedstock.

All of the original cattle in Texas came from northern Mexico where there were huge cattle ranches. Up until the latter 1800’s cattle moved back and forth across the Texas/Mexico the border all the time and to this day, some Mexican Cattle are trucked and fed in US Feedlots and US beef is exported to Mexico.


Face :)
Click to expand...

I want to know about driving cattle from Hawaii to California. Crossing that big stream must have been a real challenge.

This is a "Morning in America" style ad. (famous Reagan 1984 campaign ad) I like it. I'm a vegetarian, raised with killing and butchering chickens, pigs, deer, and cattle. It's in my blood.


[video]http://www.youtube.com/user/McDonaldsUS?v=8sjPnAYwdNI&feature=pyv&ad=21051270932&kw=george%20strait[/video]
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

lkwdblds said:
This is amazing! I never studied about American cattle drives but I posted only to share my favorite Western song. Unexpectedly, this has led to a full treatise on the history and ins and outs of the great American cattle drives. This is an unexpected and pleasant dividend. I have a new question relating to Idaho.

In the song, "Get along little Doggies" one of the verses goes something like this, "Your mother was raised way down in Texas where the Jensen weed and 'sander' grow, I'll raise you up on prickly peared choya until you are ready for Idaho." They talk about Texas and about Idaho. If the doggies are going to be ready for Idaho then that would lead one to figure that they were not starting from Idaho and doing a mini drive within Idaho as you mention above.

What's going on here? Is the song wrong or am I missing something?
Lakey
Click to expand...

The probable reason, dear Lakey, is that grow and Idaho rhyme . . . it is a song, after all!

And while Buffalo rhymes, there's too many syllables in it . . . . 'twould screw with the rhythm and beat of the song :biggrin:

R
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

RogerB said:
Face,,

You speak like a pro who knows what he's talking about 'cause ya speaks the true lingo.

But then, I happen to know you is a true blue cattleman . . . yessir!

And it was good to hear you putting these city-slickers right on a few thangs :biggrin:

R
Click to expand...


I've run a few head here and there in my time. :wink2:

Face :)
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Mark A. Baker said:
An oddball aside. I know a person who ran a past life as a banker/rancher in texas at the time of the civil war. Texas went confederate but he made his seed money dealing horses to the union troops stationed in the western region. He ran herds of horses in much the same fashion that the cattle drives went after the war. He was an ardent 'free market capitalist' and he got a better price from union army agents so that's where he sold the horses. His business dealings tended to the aggressively opportunistic :devil:.


Mark A. Baker
Click to expand...

:thumbsup:

The three ancestral legacy's that give the most "credibility" in Texas is someone that died at the Alamo, someone that was a Texas Ranger or someone that was hung for stealing horses. :coolwink:

Face :)
 
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