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Guess I'm not 'done'...

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
I came back here very recently because I started having cult dreams again... I posted more of my story, and since then, have read stuff that Emma was 'done'. I cannot blame her, and I think that is the best place to be. I hear all this stuff about OSA and such, and if Emma was an OSA op, it was the biggest foot-bullet in the history of the universe. This board was a huge part of my recovery from the cult. I know it was for others, so if this was OSA--epic fail:biggrin:I, personally believe that Emma was golden.

I think my not 'done' is that I know that there are still others out there. Emma got beaten to death, and deserves to get on with her life. I want there to still be a place where someone coming out can google and contact and try to get back to sanity. There was actually a bit piece in our city's free paper today that mentioned a desperate voicemail to the mayor about how they were homeless and they'd spent so much money into the cult... I was thinking if he got online he could find ESMB...it reminded me that what I escaped from is still going on every day. I'd hate for this (ESMB) to not be there

Emma deserves to graduate and be 'done'. Maybe some of us can carry on the torch. I don't want Scientology to define my life, but I know this place helped me go on with my life, and I would like others to have that resource. 'Emma' had to carry it for so many hours of her time that it maybe started defining her, much like our time in the cult defined us. Maybe we can take a page from the world how it really is and figure out a way to carry on this wonderful forum without anyone driving themselves to mental or physical exhaustion in the process.

Just some thoughts. I just remember googling when I left the cult... and I can't imagine where I'd be if I had not found this place
 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
Heya Clami :rose: & :cheers: Nice to see ya visiting again, as it is to see others stopping by after taking time away.
From what I've read over the last several years it is totally understandable given the depth of the CoS mind-fuckery, that people find bits and pieces of the conditioning mucking with their heads from time-to-time and gravitate back to where they feel comphy to express themselves amongst friends.
I know I don't haz much to offer you atm, how about a vitual :bighug: ?
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Hi Clami. Great to see you :biggrin:.

I probably should clarify my "I'm done" post.

Just because I'm done doesn't mean I believe everyone should be done, or "get over it" or "move on". It's just right for me at this time.

What I have witnessed a number of times, is that people can actually do themselves harm by not moving on when they could & should. Nobody, especially me, is saying that there is a time limit in which to recover, or that any length of time is "too long". I have seen people come on to ESMB and their whole life changes. They read the truth that was hidden from them. They make new friends. They unravel the mindfuck. They start to understand what effects Scientology has had on their lives, their finances, their families etc & they get upset, angry, resentful etc. This is all perfectly natural. Over time these things sort out for a lot of people and they can & do move on. They can & do begin their lives over.

Some people can't or don't want to move on. There are various reasons for this. Some have family members trapped inside. Some want refunds. Some want more & more understanding of how this happened to them. Others have never been in Scientology but know evil when they see it and want to stay and fight the beast until it is dead. All valid reasons to not be "done". But only if it is your choice.

I've seen too many people become addicted to ESMB and other forums at the expense of real life. Internet drama replaces real life drama. Reading about the latest celebrity in Scientology or arguing with an unknown person becomes more important than watching a movie with your husband or helping with the kid's homework. I've seen this over & over. It's happened to me too.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the internet is wonderful when it is used properly. Having an enemy to fight is great fun. Watching the cult crumble is very entertaining. Protesting is awesome fun. Catching up with old friends & making new ones is fantastic. These things are all great as long as you are still in control. I worry that people leave one all consuming environment, just to replace it with another, and never take the time to actually live.

I'm not saying that people should give up the fight, or forget what they went through, pretend it didn't happen etc. Or that they shouldn't go to the police/FBI/media etc with their stories. They absolutely should if they want to or need to. They should post as often as they like for as long as they like on message boards and get everything off their chests. But one day, and nobody knows when, Scientology will mean less to you and it will be time to take back your life. You don't "owe" anybody here anything. You can chose to stay or go, or come back again if you want to. But make sure it's YOU who is making the choice, and not that you just keep doing this because its now become a habit.

I hope this doesn't sound preachy. I don't mean it to be & it certainly doesn't mean I think people should leave ESMB or anywhere else they post & forget Scientology exists. This is 100% NOT what I'm saying. What I am saying is....Don't forget to live!
 

LA SCN

NOT drinking the kool-aid
Hi Clami. Great to see you :biggrin:.

I probably should clarify my "I'm done" post.

Just because I'm done doesn't mean I believe everyone should be done, or "get over it" or "move on". It's just right for me at this time.

What I have witnessed a number of times, is that people can actually do themselves harm by not moving on when they could & should. Nobody, especially me, is saying that there is a time limit in which to recover, or that any length of time is "too long". I have seen people come on to ESMB and their whole life changes. They read the truth that was hidden from them. They make new friends. They unravel the mindfuck. They start to understand what effects Scientology has had on their lives, their finances, their families etc & they get upset, angry, resentful etc. This is all perfectly natural. Over time these things sort out for a lot of people and they can & do move on. They can & do begin their lives over.

Some people can't or don't want to move on. There are various reasons for this. Some have family members trapped inside. Some want refunds. Some want more & more understanding of how this happened to them. Others have never been in Scientology but know evil when they see it and want to stay and fight the beast until it is dead. All valid reasons to not be "done". But only if it is your choice.

I've seen too many people become addicted to ESMB and other forums at the expense of real life. Internet drama replaces real life drama. Reading about the latest celebrity in Scientology or arguing with an unknown person becomes more important than watching a movie with your husband or helping with the kid's homework. I've seen this over & over. It's happened to me too.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the internet is wonderful when it is used properly. Having an enemy to fight is great fun. Watching the cult crumble is very entertaining. Protesting is awesome fun. Catching up with old friends & making new ones is fantastic. These things are all great as long as you are still in control. I worry that people leave one all consuming environment, just to replace it with another, and never take the time actually live.

I'm not saying that people should give up the fight, or forget what they went through, pretend it didn't happen etc. Or that they shouldn't go to the police/FBI/media etc with their stories. They absolutely should if they want to or need to. They should post as often as they like for as long as they like on message boards and get everything off their chests. But one day, and nobody knows when, Scientology will mean less to you and it will be time to take back your life. You don't "owe" anybody here anything. You can chose to stay or go, or come back again if you want to. But make sure it's YOU who is making the choice, and not that you just keep doing this because it's now become a habit.

I hope this doesn't sound preachy. I don't mean it to be & it certainly doesn't mean I think people should leave ESMB or anywhere else they post & forget Scientology exists. This is 100% NOT what I'm saying. What I am saying is....Don't forget to live!

Thanks Emma!

Great effing post and would serve any computer user well - gamers, social networkers, especially kids.

GET UP OFF YER DUFFS AND GO LIVE SOME LIFE!
 

The_Fixer

Class Clown
Good words there Emma. I have begun to notice some of it beginning to appear in my life as well. My wife points this out ocassionally (ahem) to me.

I have to remember to throttle back sometimes, or I'll find myself fighting another battle. :hotwater:

Still trying to find a balance here.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
I think there are different personal editions of "done".

There is the part where one is "done" being in a cult and decides to move out or on. For some that's when they walk out - for others it after the physical departure and when they realize that it is far better to have left it all behind them and they ain't going back.

Then there is being "done" with going over what went wrong, "how could I have been so stupid?" the 'injustices' - separate long digression here - it is often amazing to me how very upset a lot of exes are over the perceived 'injustices' they received. I don't mean injustices in the broader public sense of the word but in the narrower scientology meaning. I am always taken aback when someone who I know is out still complains about how they were picked on, attacked or punished "even though their stats were up" or how they were a great auditor, ED or whatever. It seems to take far longer for that mindset to disappear - if it ever does. I still read emails from exes that sound like a stat report.

And there are other "dones" - like the one when you realize that it was all a crock of shit. Hubbard really was lying and really had no fucking clue about anything other than securing a luxurious lifestyle for himself.

And some of these take a very long time - we worked very hard and for very long hours pursuing the desire to be "upstat" and successful and spent a lot of time correcting ourselves and ripping our own hearts out over our perceived fuck ups and out ethics etc etc. Getting "done" with that takes time, a lot of it.

And we spent a lot of time pursuing the study of it all - trying to achieve what was never really there and, again tearing ourselves apart in the insane belief that it was all our own fault, our own misunderstandings our own out ethics, when, in reality there was nothing there to begin with. That also takes a lot of time to get over.

But then there are parts that i don't think ever really get 'done" with. The people we liked and met and had fun with. They are part of our past in scientology as well so there will, for many, always be a part that will never be 'done" and, to be honest I don't want it to be. I still talk with people I went to school with as well, never going to be "done" with that.

And finally there is one other aspect to this - if you were in scientology for a long time and got to know a lot of people, were on staff and off staff, in the SO, studied a lot of courses, did quite some auditing. There is never going to be a subject in your life that you are going to know as well as you know this one. So its a bit hard to ignore when you see BS form people who don;t know it as well as you - and you just have to set them straight... LOL

So there are parts (IMHO) that get done and left and parts that don't. The sensible thing is to enjoy what is happening here and the conversations and if yuo don't enjoy it - maybe move on.
 

BardoThodol

Silver Meritorious Patron
Now and then, I try to reason what is not reasonable. I try to apply logic to what is illogical. And fail.

Because, it doesn't apply.

Passion has little to do with logic. You get a girlfriend who just fills you with passion. You just can't get enough; it's so intense.

You're fucking in Macy's changing room, knowing that someone could come in at any minute. Rationally, you think... But...

All over the place, you're doing things with this girl that make no sense in a civilized society filled with rules that will trap you in the legal system if you get caught. Logically, you've got to stop.

But, it's just so much fun!

The passion.

The insanity.

The freedom.

One day, you break free of the madness, knowing you or she will kill the other. You move on, get married, have kids. All so rational. Lots of love. Bits of passion.

But...

You think of her.

And the madness.

And you just want to relive part of it, want to feel the intensity once again.

Just for a while. A moment.

Before you return to the rational world.

It's the occasional exhibition of passion that intrigues me about ESMB.

We may move on from Scientology. Or from crazy girlfriends. But, that passion is definitely worth preserving. The sense that, for a moment, nothing else matters. Nothing is more important.

Just surrendering to the passion.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Two great posts there - thanks Emma and Mick.

Yeah, me too! Two GREAT posts! :thumbsup:

What is evident in both of these posts is the "distance" in both time and space between and with the subject and personal experiences of Scientology. One isn't sitting there with Scientology pushing right up in your face (mentally & emotionally). One has the luxury of having put some SPACE/DISTANCE between oneself and all of Scientology.

When one is involved in Scientology, one is "in" - and one cannot see things any other way usually. The view is small, tight, restricted and based solely on Hubbard's paradigm of often nutty notions.

But, once one is "out", and especially when some time has passed, along with the accumulation of OTHER non-Scientology experiences, one can then take a more expansive view of things.

When in Scientology, for the most part, Scientology is EVERYTHING. Hubbard designed it that way - to get you TOTALLY INVOLVED (to the exclusion of all else). The subject materials and the operation of the organization foist that attitude on all members ("never allow a half-minded approach about Scientology", "live or die in the attempt", "no dilettantes allowed", all-or-none, "shoulder-to-shoulder", etc.). One is fixated on an extreme slanted view of all-that-is (i.e. Scientology), to the exclusion of MANY other valid and useful opinions, ideas and viewpoints.

When out, especially for awhile, one can realign those often hard-to-understand past Scientology experiences with a much LARGER body of information. But also, one CAN and DOES eventually move on to getting involved in OTHER things with the same degree of intensity, passion, care and concern that one might have previously invested in Scientology.

There are billions of things to be interested in. None are right are wrong - except for you.

I doubt that I will ever be "done" forever with Scientology as a topic of interest to discuss, simply because first, I spent my early, young idealistic years immersed in it, and second, because I have a large amount of experiences and observations gained from taking a careful unbiased look at the whole thing from many angles.

I remember a few years back where I would spend 6 straight hours reading and posting on ESMB (earlier on FactNet or BeliefNet), almost obsessed with the subject. I would occasionally feel that I was getting a bit too involved with it all (just as I had been in Scientology). But, for me, it served as an OUTLET to vent similar experiences with others. Then when most of the emotional upset was gone, I moved forward a bit to where I was interested in simply observing and noting what I fathomed about the detailed trap of Hubbard's. It became almost "academic" - a subject of study.

To now, where I have active interest in so many other things, that the subject of Scientology generally exists, if at all, as a minor blip on the screen of my mental/emotional space. I think so little about it that if I didn't have posts to read and repsond to here on ESMB, I probably wouldn't think about it at all. :confused2:

I find that some people have a hard time moving on because they invested SO MUCH into Scientology - in terms of time, money and energy, but also and especially, because of the investment of SELF in terms of hope, caring, a desire to help, working closely with others of a similar mindset, dedication, and passion. The thing to realize is that you can invest those things in ANY of MANY available causes, purposes, goals, and even hobbies and/or FUN! :happydance:
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
I came back here very recently because I started having cult dreams again... I posted more of my story, and since then, have read stuff that Emma was 'done'. I cannot blame her, and I think that is the best place to be. I hear all this stuff about OSA and such, and if Emma was an OSA op, it was the biggest foot-bullet in the history of the universe. This board was a huge part of my recovery from the cult. I know it was for others, so if this was OSA--epic fail:biggrin:I, personally believe that Emma was golden.

I think my not 'done' is that I know that there are still others out there. Emma got beaten to death, and deserves to get on with her life. I want there to still be a place where someone coming out can google and contact and try to get back to sanity. There was actually a bit piece in our city's free paper today that mentioned a desperate voicemail to the mayor about how they were homeless and they'd spent so much money into the cult... I was thinking if he got online he could find ESMB...it reminded me that what I escaped from is still going on every day. I'd hate for this (ESMB) to not be there

Emma deserves to graduate and be 'done'. Maybe some of us can carry on the torch. I don't want Scientology to define my life, but I know this place helped me go on with my life, and I would like others to have that resource. 'Emma' had to carry it for so many hours of her time that it maybe started defining her, much like our time in the cult defined us. Maybe we can take a page from the world how it really is and figure out a way to carry on this wonderful forum without anyone driving themselves to mental or physical exhaustion in the process.

Just some thoughts. I just remember googling when I left the cult... and I can't imagine where I'd be if I had not found this place

Well said!
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
Hi Clami. Great to see you :biggrin:.

I probably should clarify my "I'm done" post.

Just because I'm done doesn't mean I believe everyone should be done, or "get over it" or "move on". It's just right for me at this time.

What I have witnessed a number of times, is that people can actually do themselves harm by not moving on when they could & should. Nobody, especially me, is saying that there is a time limit in which to recover, or that any length of time is "too long". I have seen people come on to ESMB and their whole life changes. They read the truth that was hidden from them. They make new friends. They unravel the mindfuck. They start to understand what effects Scientology has had on their lives, their finances, their families etc & they get upset, angry, resentful etc. This is all perfectly natural. Over time these things sort out for a lot of people and they can & do move on. They can & do begin their lives over.

Some people can't or don't want to move on. There are various reasons for this. Some have family members trapped inside. Some want refunds. Some want more & more understanding of how this happened to them. Others have never been in Scientology but know evil when they see it and want to stay and fight the beast until it is dead. All valid reasons to not be "done". But only if it is your choice.

I've seen too many people become addicted to ESMB and other forums at the expense of real life. Internet drama replaces real life drama. Reading about the latest celebrity in Scientology or arguing with an unknown person becomes more important than watching a movie with your husband or helping with the kid's homework. I've seen this over & over. It's happened to me too.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the internet is wonderful when it is used properly. Having an enemy to fight is great fun. Watching the cult crumble is very entertaining. Protesting is awesome fun. Catching up with old friends & making new ones is fantastic. These things are all great as long as you are still in control. I worry that people leave one all consuming environment, just to replace it with another, and never take the time to actually live.

I'm not saying that people should give up the fight, or forget what they went through, pretend it didn't happen etc. Or that they shouldn't go to the police/FBI/media etc with their stories. They absolutely should if they want to or need to. They should post as often as they like for as long as they like on message boards and get everything off their chests. But one day, and nobody knows when, Scientology will mean less to you and it will be time to take back your life. You don't "owe" anybody here anything. You can chose to stay or go, or come back again if you want to. But make sure it's YOU who is making the choice, and not that you just keep doing this because its now become a habit.

I hope this doesn't sound preachy. I don't mean it to be & it certainly doesn't mean I think people should leave ESMB or anywhere else they post & forget Scientology exists. This is 100% NOT what I'm saying. What I am saying is....Don't forget to live!

Emma, this is a great post. Really well said. It needs to go in Golden Posts or wherever that place is that Sweetness and Light is always talking about.

Clammy, thanks for starting this thread.

TG1
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
exactly....... like, wtf? I came back and was thinking about questioning folks about what was going on, and I went.... uhh...........meh..........

Yeah, I have to think that the "Emma as OSA Op" stuff WAS OSA. But really, in the open light of day here (ESMB), who cares? They can spout crap just along with the rest of us and in contrast to their inculcated view of the world, we get to take a look at it, roll it around and see if it's true or bent. And throw it aside if it is bullshit.

On the other hand private groups that divide off and require invitation and are exclusive seem like a perfect OSA ploy. None of those discussions are public, they don't help anyone at all and that isolation alone is a huge win. For OSA. Not for any one free of Scientology. Even if the content is benign the fact of the group, its division and its secrecy, is a huge mistake on the part of anyone who wants the clean light of truth shined on Cof$.
 

GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think there are different personal editions of "done".

There is the part where one is "done" being in a cult and decides to move out or on. For some that's when they walk out - for others it after the physical departure and when they realize that it is far better to have left it all behind them and they ain't going back.

Then there is being "done" with going over what went wrong, "how could I have been so stupid?" the 'injustices' - separate long digression here - it is often amazing to me how very upset a lot of exes are over the perceived 'injustices' they received. I don't mean injustices in the broader public sense of the word but in the narrower scientology meaning. I am always taken aback when someone who I know is out still complains about how they were picked on, attacked or punished "even though their stats were up" or how they were a great auditor, ED or whatever. It seems to take far longer for that mindset to disappear - if it ever does. I still read emails from exes that sound like a stat report.

And there are other "dones" - like the one when you realize that it was all a crock of shit. Hubbard really was lying and really had no fucking clue about anything other than securing a luxurious lifestyle for himself.

And some of these take a very long time - we worked very hard and for very long hours pursuing the desire to be "upstat" and successful and spent a lot of time correcting ourselves and ripping our own hearts out over our perceived fuck ups and out ethics etc etc. Getting "done" with that takes time, a lot of it.

And we spent a lot of time pursuing the study of it all - trying to achieve what was never really there and, again tearing ourselves apart in the insane belief that it was all our own fault, our own misunderstandings our own out ethics, when, in reality there was nothing there to begin with. That also takes a lot of time to get over.

But then there are parts that i don't think ever really get 'done" with. The people we liked and met and had fun with. They are part of our past in scientology as well so there will, for many, always be a part that will never be 'done" and, to be honest I don't want it to be. I still talk with people I went to school with as well, never going to be "done" with that.

And finally there is one other aspect to this - if you were in scientology for a long time and got to know a lot of people, were on staff and off staff, in the SO, studied a lot of courses, did quite some auditing. There is never going to be a subject in your life that you are going to know as well as you know this one. So its a bit hard to ignore when you see BS form people who don;t know it as well as you - and you just have to set them straight... LOL

So there are parts (IMHO) that get done and left and parts that don't. The sensible thing is to enjoy what is happening here and the conversations and if yuo don't enjoy it - maybe move on.

There are a few things that keep me here. I like reading about the latest clam scandals, things will be linked to and covered here in greater depth than main stream media as far as the whole clam thing goes, and its a community online to shoot the breeze with, share ideas with, etc. Also there is still some mystery, some secrets that will come out once the Cof$ finally collapses entirely, and that will come out on here as well. For me it is more of a passtime than anything else, my little online guilty pleasure.

Pete
 
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