The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[Emma]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Be careful Emma, I'd hate to see you get banned.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I'm gunna push the envelope TAJ, just to see how far I can go

 

[Emma]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I forgot to mention, it has made my day to see you back here & posting again.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I forgot to mention, it has made my day to see you back here & posting again.

Thanks, Emma.

And as usual, it made my day being here.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Thanks Lulu Belle!

Tony Ortega had a hissy fit when I posted his VV article here in full and was very, very nasty about it. So I'm sure the mods are being very careful now.

Don't take it personally, Carm.

It's not you.

It's me.

I smelled my pits and drank a quart of Listerene.

Since it was a political article censored and a tourist article untouched, I assumed the worst.

It's a new wind of CYA correctness. I can't say that's wrong. It is the law. This was the first time I had ever seen it enforced.

 

[Antony A Phillips]

Re: Ken Ogger, The Pilot speaks from the dead

Pilot'sPosts Z7 - “Itsa”- Importance of and Common M/U on

(From Post 54, May 99)
...

Thanks to those who send me notifications (Like and Thank you) concerning this thread. Much appreciated

Ant

 

[Antony A Phillips]

Re: Ken Ogger, The Pilot speaks from the dead

Pilot'sPosts Z2

[[ I have decided also to send the weekly excerpts from The Pilot's fortnightly postings here every week. But if you would like them sent weekly to your inbox You will still need to go to: http://lists.worldtrans.org/mailman/listinfo/superscio and sign in there. Then you will get them in your inbox in the middle of every week without you having to raise a finger further. Ant]]

Pilot'sPosts Z8

[Preface by relay point Ant:] Recently, on another list, there was a discussion on Ron's Policy Letter entitled Cope and Organize. 14th September 1970, Org Series 2. Briefly it says that in running something one needs to both organise and to cope (that word might need looking up - it was difficult to convey the meaning of it when I first talked about the policy to Danes). If you organised something completely (to the last nut and bolt) before going in to action it was not wise. It was a one and a half page policy where Ron gives some examples and the Policy Letter ends off:

So cope by all means but don't forget to organize a little when you get a chance.
The end product of cope is drown.
The end product of organize is freedom.​

It is an example of a number of instances where Ron has tried to lay out principles useful in everyday life. Some one drew my attention to the following which was part of the Pilot's Post 38 where the Pilot has also "philosophised" a bit over everyday life. He was the then new unofficial opinion leader in the Scientology field. Here it is.


[Excerpt from the Pilot's ACT post starts here:]

From Post 38



Newsgroups: alt.clearing.technology
From: [email protected] (The Pilot)
Subject: SUPER SCIO ARCHIVE 38 - EARLY OCT 98 PILOT POSTS TO ACT
Date: 9 Oct 1998 14:00:12




Production and Expansion

If you only produce for today, you are not mocking up the
future and so you will not expand. But if you do nothing
in the present, then you will have nothing but dreams of
a future that never comes.

Any post, unit, or organization really has two products, an
immediate product and a long range one.

The immediate product is your direct production.

The long range one is your basis for expansion.

A technical division in a Scientology org, for example, would
have auditing as its short range product and training auditors
as its long range one.

The typical (non-Scientology) sales and marketing division
in the business world would have sales as its short term
product and marketing as its long range one.

Now let us say that you have a trucking firm. The daily
shipping is the short term product. The long range one is
expanding your routes, facilities, and equipment.

Or consider the American railroads in the nineteenth century.
You can easily divide them into 3 categories. First there
were the ones that simply delivered a product but did not
try to expand. Some of them on good routes did quite well
but they would always be gobbled up by some expanding giant.
Then there were the big schemes that concentrated on expansion
only without much attention to delivery. These would end
up in chronic bankruptcy. And finally there were the ones
who divided their resources between these two activities,
and there you have your Vanderbilts and so forth.

The key is to mockup both present and future.

And so you need to maintain two goals and products, one that
is where you are and another that is aimed at where you
are going.

It is not just that an organization has a planning staff
for long range targets, each and every area has this twofold
aspect. Simply making dinner requires both future oriented
actions (shopping) as well as the actual cooking, and if
you want your task to be easier you shop for the week instead
of for today only.

You can always drive an immediate stat up by sacrificing
the future. You can do it once in an emergency, but never
on a regular basis. That's cutting your own throat.

So operate with an eye towards the future.

Best,

The Pilot

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: Ken Ogger, The Pilot speaks from the dead

Pilot'sPosts Z8

[Preface by relay point Ant:] Recently, on another list, there was a discussion on Ron's Policy Letter entitled Cope and Organize. 14th September 1970, Org Series 2. Briefly it says that in running something one needs to both organise and to cope (that word might need looking up - it was difficult to convey the meaning of it when I first talked about the policy to Danes). If you organised something completely (to the last nut and bolt) before going in to action it was not wise. It was a one and a half page policy where Ron gives some examples and the Policy Letter ends off:

So cope by all means but don't forget to organize a little when you get a chance.
The end product of cope is drown.
The end product of organize is freedom.​

It is an example of a number of instances where Ron has tried to lay out principles useful in everyday life. Some one drew my attention to the following which was part of the Pilot's Post 38 where the Pilot has also "philosophised" a bit over everyday life. He was the then new unofficial opinion leader in the Scientology field. Here it is.


[Excerpt from the Pilot's ACT post starts here:]

From Post 38



Newsgroups: alt.clearing.technology
From: [email protected] (The Pilot)
Subject: SUPER SCIO ARCHIVE 38 - EARLY OCT 98 PILOT POSTS TO ACT
Date: 9 Oct 1998 14:00:12




Production and Expansion

If you only produce for today, you are not mocking up the
future and so you will not expand. But if you do nothing
in the present, then you will have nothing but dreams of
a future that never comes.

Any post, unit, or organization really has two products, an
immediate product and a long range one.

The immediate product is your direct production.

The long range one is your basis for expansion.

A technical division in a Scientology org, for example, would
have auditing as its short range product and training auditors
as its long range one.

The typical (non-Scientology) sales and marketing division
in the business world would have sales as its short term
product and marketing as its long range one.

Now let us say that you have a trucking firm. The daily
shipping is the short term product. The long range one is
expanding your routes, facilities, and equipment.

Or consider the American railroads in the nineteenth century.
You can easily divide them into 3 categories. First there
were the ones that simply delivered a product but did not
try to expand. Some of them on good routes did quite well
but they would always be gobbled up by some expanding giant.
Then there were the big schemes that concentrated on expansion
only without much attention to delivery. These would end
up in chronic bankruptcy. And finally there were the ones
who divided their resources between these two activities,
and there you have your Vanderbilts and so forth.

The key is to mockup both present and future.

And so you need to maintain two goals and products, one that
is where you are and another that is aimed at where you
are going.

It is not just that an organization has a planning staff
for long range targets, each and every area has this twofold
aspect. Simply making dinner requires both future oriented
actions (shopping) as well as the actual cooking, and if
you want your task to be easier you shop for the week instead
of for today only.

You can always drive an immediate stat up by sacrificing
the future. You can do it once in an emergency, but never
on a regular basis. That's cutting your own throat.

So operate with an eye towards the future.

Best,

The Pilot

Anthony and Others:
I had some significant experience in cope and organize theory when I was at CCLA.

Int late 1971, LRH came out with the Establishment Officer (ESTO) theory and system for the Orgs. Bob Harvey came out from the Apollo to implement the ESTO system into the PAC area Orgs, AOLA, ASHO, LA ORG, and CCLA.

Under this system, each Division in the 7 division Org Board, which now had a Secretary who led the Division was supposed to also have an ESTO or co-leader of the Division. Between the Div Sec and the Div ESTO, the Div Sec was to be slightly higher in power but the ESTO had very significant powers and the ESTO's upline was different from the upline of the Div Sec.

I was chosen to be the ESTO for Celebrity Centre's Div 3, Treasury Division. Weekly meetings were scheduled at ASHO. I believe that each chosen ESTO trainee took one of their 2 1/2 hour study periods and spent it up at ASHO being tutored by Bob Harvey. Four such meetings took place. They were fantastic! Bob Harvey was a lot of fun and really knew his stuff. The data presented was quite exciting.

AFTER 4 WEEKLY MEETING, BOB HARVEY DISAPPEARED Our 5th meeting was cancelled, Bob Harvey left town and the entire program ended. We attendees were not given any explanation. It was very disappointing that the rug was pulled out from under the program. I always wondered why.

Here on ESMB, this question, like every other question I had was answered. Elvis Presley had a friend that was steering him towards Scientology. Apparently LRH heard about this and assigned Bob Harvey to get Elvis into Scientology. It appears that Bob put a "crush reg" cycle on Elvis and Elvis did not like it and stormed out very upset and swearing that he would not have anything to do with Scientology.

About 2 1/2 years went by and in the summer of 1973, a new effort was made to get more Organization and Establishment into the Orgs. The PAC area Orgs were now to have two seniors in every division again, this time the Div Sec was going to represent the "Product Officer" but a new position, the "Organizing Officer" was to be created for each of the 7 divisions. Once again the Product Officer would be the senior of the two. At the top of the Org Board the CO, Yvonne, was to be the Product Officer and Irene Derman was going to be the Organizing Officer over the entire Org.

Once again, I was chosen to train up as Organizing Officer for Treasury. The Treas Sec, Kitty Georgius, would be the Product Officer.

Irene pulled me off of what I was studying and put me on the Org Officer - Product Officer Hat. This was an extremely interesting course which had 9 very interesting LRH tapes, all based on the relationship between Organizing and getting out Products. The principle of Cope and Organized was a major part of the course.

Obviously, in a start up mode or when starting a new job, a person would have to cope first to get out some products but quite soon, the person would have to start Organizing. Hubbard had written and spoken a great deal about this in the early 70's

Typical of the Sea Org, good ideas were quickly caught up with the need to Cope. After about 2 months of Study with Irene and really feeling that I was learning something good and going somewhere, an urgent request from the Appolo landed on Yvonne's desk. They wanted me to leave CC immediately and come to the Apollo to be the Purchasing Officer for the LRH household unit.

I shipped out to the Apollo around Oct 1, 1973. That is where this thread opens, with me arriving at Flag.

What a waste! The ESTO program had some excellent teach but was quickly scrapped and 30 months later a new try was made with the Org Officer / Product Officer System - this was developed to deal with too much cope going on in the Orgs. As far as I know, the ESTO system resurfaced in the 90's on a smaller scale but there were some ESTOs posted in some of the Orgs and the ESTO tech was in the green management volumes.

The Org Officer / Product Officer System seems to have never seen the light of day. There was just too much cope going on in the Orgs. The Thursday at 2:00 stat cut off deadline virtually guarantees enormous amounts of cope in Scn Orgs. Programs to organize orgs into smooth running efficient operations will never be possible in Corporate Scientology unless the Green and White volumes are totally rewritten. By its very nature, there is simply too much Cope in Scientology Orgs to have enough time to Establish and / or Organize!!
Lakey

 

[Hatshepsut]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Florida governor Rick Scott being sued by the Federal govt for wanting to verify elligibles in the the voter database. He must do this before 90 days of the election or give it a pass. He is being thwarted.

See video on page

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/orlando-group-challenges-gov-on-voter-roll-purge/vcF3J

 

[Lulu Belle]

Re: Thanks Lulu Belle!

I smelled my pits and drank a quart of Listerene.

Since it was a political article censored and a tourist article untouched, I assumed the worst.

It's a new wind of CYA correctness. I can't say that's wrong. It is the law. This was the first time I had ever seen it enforced.

Yeah; I didn't even know it was a rule. That's what I get for not reading this stuff.

 

[Antony A Phillips]

Re: Ken Ogger, The Pilot speaks from the dead

Anthony and Others:
I had some significant experience in cope and organize theory when I was at CCLA.
....
Lakey

Fascinating post. I have only worked in "little" orgs n Europe, and I stopped when my Pubs Org contract was up in 1971, and some one said that since I had worked in ordinary orgs and Pubs org, my only choice now was the Sea Org :-( !

If you want to treat me with respect, spell my name without an "h"
Yours obsequiously,
Antony

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Tony Ortega had a hissy fit when I posted his VV article here in full and was very, very nasty about it. So I'm sure the mods are being very careful now.

Don't take it personally, Carm.

It's not you.

It's me.

Oh cut it out. It's not because of Ortega, but because I happen to agree with him.

It's something that I think is important. Both from a respect for the rights of others viewpoint and from a need to protect ESMB.

 

[Lulu Belle]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Oh cut it out. It's not because of Ortega, but because I happen to agree with him.

It's something that I think is important. Both from a respect for the rights of others viewpoint and from a need to protect ESMB.

It's OK, Mick. I'm not offended by it. I just didn't know.

 

[olska]

Re: Bali

pay, rent, food, and the value of money and labor are highly variable across the globe.

we do live in a global economy.

We have a garage, that I converted to living quarters a decade ago. It is 600 square feet with wifi, cable, garbage disposer, microwave, stove, fridge with ice and water, jacuzzi bath, rose and vegetable gardens, a small orchard, and a pleasant woody view. We rent it for $1,700. a month. Usually to Stanford students, but an occasional peripatetic professional like a rocket scientist.

The house across the street we just rented for $9,500. It is four bedrooms and baths with a pool. Stanford MBA students claimed it.

Our daughter lives in Haiti. She has armed guards. $20. goes a long way in Haiti if you're poor.

The reason I posted the Bali article is because I'm keenly aware of the fact that many of the readers and contributors on ESMB are getting old, and living on a small, perhaps non existent pension.

We have a tenant that has had his lifestyle so pinched, that we a afraid he may commit suicide.

I know of another 60+er, who has come down from a $2.5M house to a $500. a month room.

I've met my share of ESMBers, who are homeless.

perhaps Bali or some city in Mexico or South America might be a good fit for someone with a fixed income.

Instead of critiquing the pay a Balinese might work for, consider whether it is better to be Balinese and unemployed or working for $75 a month.

Or, looking at this question from slightly different angles, several questions could be raised...

... is it better to be retired on a fixed-income pension in a country/ economy where your little pension barely covers your basic needs? or in a country/ economy where (by comparison to the income of the local inhabitants) your little pension buys you a life of wealth and privilege?

... is it better to be one of the unemployed poor (or "retired") in a rich country? or in a poor country?

... is it better to be one of the working poor in a rich country? or in a poor country?

I think the rich really can't be bothered with such questions, one way or another ... that is, until they are by some twist of fate forced to join the poor as in your example of the person who fell from the riches of a $2.5 home to the discomfort of the $500 room ... oops.

How very distressing to be forced to get along on a pittance equivalent to what one once paid to one's servants...

 

[Smilla]

Re: Bali

Or, looking at this question from slightly different angles, several questions could be raised...

... is it better to be retired on a fixed-income pension in a country/ economy where your little pension barely covers your basic needs? or in a country/ economy where (by comparison to the income of the local inhabitants) your little pension buys you a life of wealth and privilege?

... is it better to be one of the unemployed poor (or "retired") in a rich country? or in a poor country?

... is it better to be one of the working poor in a rich country? or in a poor country?

I think the rich really can't be bothered with such questions, one way or another ... that is, until they are by some twist of fate forced to join the poor as in your example of the person who fell from the riches of a $2.5 home to the discomfort of the $500 room ... oops.

How very distressing to be forced to get along on a pittance equivalent to what one once paid to one's servants...

In my personal code of ethics, I am obliged to an employee a *fair* wage which reflects their level of skill and the quality of their work. I never pay minimum wage, but what a *fair* wage is does vary from country to country, depending on the cost of living.

 

[Terril park]

Re: Ken Ogger, The Pilot speaks from the dead

Anthony and Others:
I had some significant experience in cope and organize theory when I was at CCLA.

Int late 1971, LRH came out with the Establishment Officer (ESTO) theory and system for the Orgs. Bob Harvey came out from the Apollo to implement the ESTO system into the PAC area Orgs, AOLA, ASHO, LA ORG, and CCLA.

Under this system, each Division in the 7 division Org Board, which now had a Secretary who led the Division was supposed to also have an ESTO or co-leader of the Division. Between the Div Sec and the Div ESTO, the Div Sec was to be slightly higher in power but the ESTO had very significant powers and the ESTO's upline was different from the upline of the Div Sec.

I was chosen to be the ESTO for Celebrity Centre's Div 3, Treasury Division. Weekly meetings were scheduled at ASHO. I believe that each chosen ESTO trainee took one of their 2 1/2 hour study periods and spent it up at ASHO being tutored by Bob Harvey. Four such meetings took place. They were fantastic! Bob Harvey was a lot of fun and really knew his stuff. The data presented was quite exciting.

AFTER 4 WEEKLY MEETING, BOB HARVEY DISAPPEARED Our 5th meeting was cancelled, Bob Harvey left town and the entire program ended. We attendees were not given any explanation. It was very disappointing that the rug was pulled out from under the program. I always wondered why.

Here on ESMB, this question, like every other question I had was answered. Elvis Presley had a friend that was steering him towards Scientology. Apparently LRH heard about this and assigned Bob Harvey to get Elvis into Scientology. It appears that Bob put a "crush reg" cycle on Elvis and Elvis did not like it and stormed out very upset and swearing that he would not have anything to do with Scientology.

About 2 1/2 years went by and in the summer of 1973, a new effort was made to get more Organization and Establishment into the Orgs. The PAC area Orgs were now to have two seniors in every division again, this time the Div Sec was going to represent the "Product Officer" but a new position, the "Organizing Officer" was to be created for each of the 7 divisions. Once again the Product Officer would be the senior of the two. At the top of the Org Board the CO, Yvonne, was to be the Product Officer and Irene Derman was going to be the Organizing Officer over the entire Org.

Once again, I was chosen to train up as Organizing Officer for Treasury. The Treas Sec, Kitty Georgius, would be the Product Officer.

Irene pulled me off of what I was studying and put me on the Org Officer - Product Officer Hat. This was an extremely interesting course which had 9 very interesting LRH tapes, all based on the relationship between Organizing and getting out Products. The principle of Cope and Organized was a major part of the course.

Obviously, in a start up mode or when starting a new job, a person would have to cope first to get out some products but quite soon, the person would have to start Organizing. Hubbard had written and spoken a great deal about this in the early 70's

Typical of the Sea Org, good ideas were quickly caught up with the need to Cope. After about 2 months of Study with Irene and really feeling that I was learning something good and going somewhere, an urgent request from the Appolo landed on Yvonne's desk. They wanted me to leave CC immediately and come to the Apollo to be the Purchasing Officer for the LRH household unit.

I shipped out to the Apollo around Oct 1, 1973. That is where this thread opens, with me arriving at Flag.

What a waste! The ESTO program had some excellent teach but was quickly scrapped and 30 months later a new try was made with the Org Officer / Product Officer System - this was developed to deal with too much cope going on in the Orgs. As far as I know, the ESTO system resurfaced in the 90's on a smaller scale but there were some ESTOs posted in some of the Orgs and the ESTO tech was in the green management volumes.

The Org Officer / Product Officer System seems to have never seen the light of day. There was just too much cope going on in the Orgs. The Thursday at 2:00 stat cut off deadline virtually guarantees enormous amounts of cope in Scn Orgs. Programs to organize orgs into smooth running efficient operations will never be possible in Corporate Scientology unless the Green and White volumes are totally rewritten. By its very nature, there is simply too much Cope in Scientology Orgs to have enough time to Establish and / or Organize!!
Lakey

The prod/org system and ESTO tapes are essentially the FEBC. This appears to have always been something of a failure. Pilot has said that the first FEBCs back to the orgs were destructive. I was on the 1981 FEBC
evolution, and recently was comparing notes to one who did FEBC in the nineties. I knew from a friend who was on the same FEBC evolution as I that 60% of FEBCs never returned to their org. She was told this in LA when she went for some action or other. I find from my new aquaintance
that of the 1981 FEBC evolution 20-30% were recruited into the SO and thus didn't return to the orgs! Its amazing thet really fundamental and important policies get trashed in the quest for stats.

Lots of good info in OEC/FEBC. LRH said he's solved the problem of
succession. Have the successor do the OEC/FEBC. That hasn't worked out very well!

One IMO flaw is that there is too much info. Why read the equivalent of a set of encyclopedias to be a manager? Why train so many this way? There was 400 or so on course with me, and the total would have been much greater as people finished and left and new ones arrived continuously.

Far better would be to train much fewer very thoroughly with an interneship. They could trouble shoot the rest of the orgs, just as management consultants do in non CO$ organisations.

Also an esto in every div dosn't help the tech admin ratio.

 

[olska]

Re: Bali

In my personal code of ethics, I am obliged to an employee a *fair* wage which reflects their level of skill and the quality of their work. I never pay minimum wage, but what a *fair* wage is does vary from country to country, depending on the cost of living.

That's great.

So when you are determining what is "fair" do you consider only the bottom/ minimum wage/earnings for work done or services provided, or do you also consider the top of the scale?

that is, for example, in an economy where the minimum wage required by law is, say, $8.00/hour or around $18,000/year (before witholdings), if someone is paid, say, $180 million dollars a year (ten thousand times the minimum) for the work they did or services they provided, would you call that $180M a "fair" remuneration?

And if you would call that $180M "fair," then what is it that accounts for the difference in skill or quality of work of that high earner as compared to the minimum wage earner? is it really ten thousand times better? how -- other than by comparing $ earnings -- do you determine that difference?

In your opinion, how much of that difference in earnings can actually be attributed to a difference in skill or quality of work, and how much to other factors such as luck, privilege, or something else?

And regarding "cost of living" -- are you referring to cost of living in a hovel? or cost of living in a 10,000 'sq mansion? and what, specifically, in between those two extremes is your idea of an acceptable standard of living, the cost of which can be computed in that particular geographic location?

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Florida governor Rick Scott being sued by the Federal govt for wanting to verify elligibles in the the voter database. He must do this before 90 days of the election or give it a pass. He is being thwarted.

See video on page

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/orlando-group-challenges-gov-on-voter-roll-purge/vcF3J

That's a distortion. He is not verifying, he is arbitrarily deleting people, not telling them they're been deleted, and he is doing in in such a way that is a violation of the Voting Rights act.

Even the Republican election superviosrs are opposed to what he is doing.

And by the way, you didn't mention he's just doing registered Democrats.

If he wants every voter to prove they are an American citizen, that's fine. But just taking Hispanic sounding names who are registered Democrats is voter fraud.

You also didn't mention anything about the veterens who fought in combat that are being deleted.

For crying out loud. The guy is one of the biggest criminals in this country.

And yes, I am refering to the $1.7 BILLION in medicare fraud that the company he founded and he was the CEO of was found guilty of committing.

It seems corporations aren't people after all because they don't go to jail. They just pay a fine.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

That's a distortion. He is not verifying, he is arbitrarily deleting people, not telling them they're been deleted, and he is doing in in such a way that is a violation of the Voting Rights act.

Even the Republican election superviosrs are opposed to what he is doing.

And by the way, you didn't mention he's just doing registered Democrats.

If he wants every voter to prove they are an American citizen, that's fine. But just taking Hispanic sounding names who are registered Democrats is voter fraud.

You also didn't mention anything about the veterens who fought in combat that are being deleted.

For crying out loud. The guy is one of the biggest criminals in this country.

And yes, I am refering to the $1.7 BILLION in medicare fraud that the company he founded and he was the CEO of was found guilty of committing.

It seems corporations aren't people after all because they don't go to jail. They just pay a fine.

The Anabaptist Jacques

well color me surprised because we , while not agreeing about the same things, are on the same page.

I think this is a total waste of time to be honest. There have been several minor issues with voter fraud in very specific local races but nothing to suggest there is some huge scale of it sweeping elections.

Money time and energy would be better spent making sure voters are secure to turn up and vote and that the COUNTING OF THE BALLOTS is both transparent and publicly accessible.

The only troubling area that I think needs to be addressed by both federal and state governments is the disenfranchisement of absent military voters and that is much more due to incompetence than fraud.

This is the first US general election in which I will be able to vote, so i has a lot of significance for me.

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

For you folks who showed interest in things of government and economics recently, get a load of this as an example of how things are run but should not be.

Excerpt here are from a presentation given by Jim Rogers (famed ex partner of George Soros, and now an international player in the big markets).

The whole article is really worth a read here:
http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/view/mineweb/en/page103855?oid=153190&sn=Detail&pid=92730

Titled:

Latest round of bailouts just postponing the inevitable
According to Jim Rogers, bailing out ailing financial institutions adds to debt burdens and gives policymakers wiggle room to put off making tough decisions like paying down debts.

Excerpts:

"What we are doing in the West, we are taking the assets from the competent people and giving them to the incompetent people and say 'now you compete with the competent people with their money.' It's absurd economics. It's absurd morality."

And . . .

Spain has now become the fourth country to seek assistance since Europe's debt crisis began. With the rescue of Greece, Ireland, Portugal and now Spain, the European Union and International Monetary Fund have now committed around 500 billion euros to finance European bailouts.

If anyone remembers, as recently as May 28, Spanish Prime Minister, Mariano Rajoy, flatly rejected any chance of outside help for distressed banks crippled by a huge exposure to the collapsed property sector. "There will be no rescue of the Spanish banks," he said.

Economy Minister Luis De Guindos said $15 billion would solve the problem. The former Spanish Prime Minister, Jose Zapatero, often vehemently denied that Spain had any financial problems. And, do you remember the former Prime Minister of Greece, George Papandreou, who on numerous occasions stated that Greece did not need any financial aid. Emilio Botin, chairman of Spain's biggest bank, Banco Santander, told the world, "There is no financial crisis in Spain." And, more than two years ago, there was the former finance minister of Ireland Brian Lenihan, who stated that Ireland had no need for a bailout. This pattern of outright lies and deception has become the accepted norm with our current leaders.

As I have mentioned countless times one simply cannot trust the words of our current politicians. And, the one thing you can bet on is the opposite of what they. Recently, former Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou predicted that Greece will stay in the Eurozone and that the austerity measures required by the nation's bailouts might be eased.

"We can have some modifications to the program," Papandreou said in an interview with Bloomberg Television. "Whether we can stretch out the fiscal adjustment for another year or so will take a little bit of pain out."

Greece has "a few weeks" before its government runs out of money so this is "a make-or-break period," Papandreou said. A Greek exit from the euro would result in hyperinflation and bank runs as well as lower growth and wages, he said.

Since this is the very same person who said, in 2010, that Greece is not in any financial difficulties, I take his comments to mean that Greece will most definitely exit the Eurozone and that a plan is being discussed right now.

In the meantime, Spain is to receive funding from either from the Eurozone's temporary rescue fund, the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF), or the permanent mechanism, the European Stability Mechanism, which is due to start next month. Finland said that if money came from the EFSF, it would want collateral.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Re: Bali

Or, looking at this question from slightly different angles, several questions could be raised...

... is it better to be retired on a fixed-income pension in a country/ economy where your little pension barely covers your basic needs? or in a country/ economy where (by comparison to the income of the local inhabitants) your little pension buys you a life of wealth and privilege?

... is it better to be one of the unemployed poor (or "retired") in a rich country? or in a poor country?

... is it better to be one of the working poor in a rich country? or in a poor country?

I think the rich really can't be bothered with such questions, one way or another ... that is, until they are by some twist of fate forced to join the poor as in your example of the person who fell from the riches of a $2.5 home to the discomfort of the $500 room ... oops.

How very distressing to be forced to get along on a pittance equivalent to what one once paid to one's servants...

Replying to your post above, but not in order.

First, where I live, Silicon Valley, CA, no one would consider a $2.5 M house wealthy with servants. It is upper middle class. They probably had someone cleaning the house once a week.

As a basis of comparison, the house next door to us is for sale for $1.7M. It is approx 600 square feet on about 1/4 acre of land. It has a county sewer with a ten foot easement running through the length of the lot. It is fairly priced.

My point was and is that the SAME AMOUNT OF DOLLARS buys wildly different amounts of housing , food, and service.

I know homeless guys, who get $45.00 an hour for handyman work.

I have friends (this word not used loosely), who are illegal aliens, AKA "wetbacks", who own their own homes, and are paid for the quality of their work, very fairly. In the job pool, here, people are judged by the quality and speed of their work. They have done plenty of work for me, and were paid nothing even comparable to minimum wage.

I grew up on farms. At an early age, I got a healthy dose of respect for immigrants, usually illegal, and their work ethic.

I think it is a false viewpoint to ask:

"... is it better to be one of the unemployed poor (or "retired") in a rich country? or in a poor country?

... is it better to be one of the working poor in a rich country? or in a poor country?"

from my viewpoint, the question(s) should be what quality of work, of challenge, of "following your dream" are you pursuing? Where can that best be done?

Our youngest daughter, who grew up in Silicon Valley and La La Land, with her own horse from the time she was a baby,

was a member of SAG and AFTRA since she was 4, on a successful TV series (still played in reruns) got an MA from Stanford, a local university, has lived in Beijing, Shanghai, West Africa,

and currently lives and works in Haiti. * see footnote

She is making a difference in the poorest country in the western hemisphere.
More important than her pay, is the difference she makes on people, who need help. That isn't something money can quantify.

Compared to one of her brothers, who is a high school graduate (barely), she makes bupkis. Compared to her sister, a high school equivalency test completion, she really makes spare change.

The name of the game, as I see it, is to really fill your niche in life, to play hard to contribute your best, at what you are good at, and want to be doing. The money should never be the focus.

Obviously, we all need enough to eat and sleep in some comfort and safety, but again, those are relative values.

The other point being, not to be a parasite on the hard work of others. There are plenty of people, both rich and poor, who fall into this category. Tom Cruise's friend, Davey, falls into this one big time, as did his mentor, the atomic physicist and best friend of mankind.


* footnote:


DOMINICAN REPUBLIC DAILY SUMMARY

MAY, 29



POSITIVE 6 NEGATIVE 1 NEUTRAL 0



Nacion Dominicana
Martelly-Lamothe announces "Ti Manman Cheri" Program for vulnerable families
The Prime Minister, Mr. Laurent Lamothe and the First Lady of the Republic, Mrs. Sofia Martelly, representing the President of the Republic, Joseph Michel Martelly SEM, officially launched this Sunday, May 27, on the occasion of Mother's Day, the "Ti Manman Cheri" at the Joint Union School of the Apostles, in Cite Soleil, in the presence of members of the Council of Ministers and representatives of other countries.
http://lanaciondominicana.com/ver_noticia.php?id_noticia=35042&sesion_periodico=14





Agencia de Noticias Xinhua
Haitian Government launches program against extreme poverty
Haiti's government launched a program against extreme poverty with an initial fund of $ 13 million for the first year, through which seeks to ensure the education of poor children and ease the financial burden of families living in vulnerable areas, reported the Haitian Presidency. Prime Minister Laurent Lamothe and first lady of the Republic, Sophia Martelly, started the "You manman cheri" in Creole ("Dear mom" in Spanish) on Sunday on the occasion of Mother's Day, at a special event held in a school in Cite Soleil, one of the poorest in Port-au-Prince.
http://spanish.peopledaily.com.cn/31617/7830354.html





Z101 Digital
Haitian Government provides assistance to 100,000 mothers living in extreme poverty
Haiti 's government launched a program of social protection to help cope with 100,000 mothers living in extreme poverty throughout the country, reported the Office of Communication of the Presidency. They consist of the "Ti manman cherie" ("Mother dear"), which will allow mothers with one, two or three children each month receive 400 to 800 gourdes (9.5 to 19 U.S. dollars) to meet basic needs.
http://www.z101digital.com/app/article.aspx?id=66880





La Informacion
Haitian Government provides assistance to 100,000 mothers living in extreme poverty
Haiti's government launched a program of social protection to help cope with 100,000 mothers living in extreme poverty throughout the country, reported the Office of Communication of the Presidency.They consist of the "Ti manman cherie" ("Mother dear"), which will allow mothers with one, two or three children each month receive 400 to 800 gourdes (9.5 to 19 U.S. dollars) to meet basic needs.
http://noticias.lainformacion.com/p...en-en-pobreza-extrema_RZuveR1lZ0tVQLOWxbHtU2/




Diario Libre
Haitian Government provides assistance to 100,000 mothers living in extreme poverty
Haiti's government launched a program of social protection to help cope with 100,000 mothers living in extreme poverty throughout the country, reported the Office of Communication of the Presidency.They consist of the "Ti manman cherie" ("Mother dear"), which will allow mothers with one, two or three children each month receive 400 to 800 gourdes (9.5 to 19 U.S. dollars) to meet basic needs.
http://www.diariolibre.com/noticias...100-000-madres-que-viven-pobreza-extrema.html