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The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

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Re: A Little Housekeeping Chore

Luv it! :thumbsup:

She was by far the finest ship the SO had in its' “flotilla”. You could lean her over 45 degrees in a turn under flank speed and never feel like you were getting anywhere near the edge. She was built to chase down submerged vessels whatever the topside wind and sea conditions were.


Face :)

Speed demon. :eyeroll:

Sounds like a rough ride. I preferred smooth sailing in a vessel which was shipshape & Bristol fashion and with a crew that knew what they were required to do and were capable of it no matter the state of the sea. What amazes me most about the old SO sailing stories is that they didn't wind up with any one dead.


Mark A. Baker :coolwink:
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

http://www.lermanet.com/scottmayer/

scottmayer-onboard-the-excalibur.jpg

Scott Mayer (Center) onboard Scientology's Excalibur
Scott took command of the Bolivar from Bob Young, who was captain for the trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles, whose voyage was memorialized by a song by a group called "Blues Image" named "Ride Captain Ride" which hopefully is playing in the background as you read this page. If not try this link to listen. I was one of the 73 sailors..on board the Bolivar for that trip.

mayer1.jpg

The TSMY Bolivar, later renamed Excalibur, was an Ex-navy Sub chaser, commissioned in 1943, it had two, 2000 hp, turbocharged diesel engines, flank engine speed was 800 RPM. We all believed Hubbard's shore story.. that this was a "training vessel" for Sea Organization staff... in reality, Hubbard chose a sub-chaser, to be the 'get-away vehicle', for Scientology executives to escape a raid or crackdown by Federal authorities.

WTF
 
Last edited:

RogerB

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

OK. Thanks for that.

Another question - Does the phenomena of As-is-ness (presuming that it is real) violate the law of conservation of energy/mass?

No . . . but the answer to the question depends on "where" you think the "energy" of that which has been as-issed goes or otherwise, what happens to it. :)

Rog
 

RogerB

Crusader
Re: A Little Housekeeping Chore



. . . (snipped) . . .
Gawd, do I ever wish I woulda known that then! I woulda been long gone in a heart beat...dazed, confused, heart broken but gone in a flash nonetheless...I gave it my all folks, I really gave "IT" my all. :melodramatic::duh::confused2:

Peace.:coolwink:

Face :)

Peace, Face . . . :)

The bright side of it though is that, being a survivor, you came out of it wiser, tougher and more of a winner in the real world.

R
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

http://www.lermanet.com/scottmayer/

scottmayer-onboard-the-excalibur.jpg



mayer1.jpg


"The TSMY Bolivar, later renamed Excalibur, was an Ex-navy Sub chaser, commissioned in 1943, it had two, 2000 hp, turbocharged diesel engines, flank engine speed was 800 RPM. We all believed Hubbard's shore story.. that this was a "training vessel" for Sea Organization staff... in reality, Hubbard chose a sub-chaser, to be the 'get-away vehicle', for Scientology executives to escape a raid or crackdown by Federal authorities."

Whoa Hats - We need some clarification here. Are you sure about the TSMY Bolivar being renamed the Excalibur. From 1971 to 1973 at least, those were two different ships as I just posted and as Face has verified. I've never heard that the Bolivar was renamed Excalibur. Also, Face just pointed out that only the Bolivar was a sub chaser - the other bigger ship, the Excalibur was not. I thought that when the Apollo came ashore in Florida, around the beginning of 1975, correct me if I am wrong, the S.O. had decided to sell all their ships and got rid of both the Bolivar and the Excalibur. Interesting item about the Bolivar being so fast that LRH and/or other S.O. execs could make a quick escape from the Feds.

WTF


BTW - Was that you in the picture with the two guys on board the Bolivar? My God, what an awesomely gorgeous woman!! Just walking the streets of San Francisco, the odds are that she would have been discovered and signed to modeling or acting contract.
Lakey
PS: Hats, did you ever get the photos of my cat Bella, the one who looks like your cat Rocky I sent them to you by private email about 3 weeks ago and you never acked receipt.
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Perceptions, More On

No . . . but the answer to the question depends on "where" you think the "energy" of that which has been as-issed goes or otherwise, what happens to it. :)

Rog


Extrapolating backwards...

There is a process where the pc is caused to duplicate an object many times. If the pc is in fairly good shape, the object will disappear for him. If the auditor is tracking along with the pc, the object will disappear for him as well. Before any naysayers speak up, I will say that I have experienced this phenomena.

However, the object does not disappear for every other being whose gaze might lay upon said object.

And, at session end, the object rests as it was in the beginning of session.

Hubbard alluded to thetans being "proofed up" to the point where they could/would as-is the physical universe, if not in its entirety then certainly in a small, no, very, very small part. From time to time we hear stories from some being who has just gone "up the pole" of such things happening. Closer to everyday-reality, who hasn't lost their keys? And what happens to all those missing socks in the dryer?

The question of, "Where does an as-ised object, condition, problem, etc. go?" is easily answered: Just use Hubbard's explanation! It disappeared! It's gone!

Perhaps as-isness was just a hair-brained theory that requires further experimentation and explanation.

There is the situation of a pc's difficulty vanishing to never return. There is also the situation of the pc's difficulty returning again and again no matter how much auditing is received. This suggests to me that the (object, difficulty, condition, person of interest, etc.) did not disappear, but the comm line(s) into that (whatever) did. Once the comm line is restored by whatever means, the condition returns for the pc. This leads to more incorrect or partially correct theory accepted as fact: Composite engrams, PTS, not all BPC found and addressed, out-ethics, etc.

"What wall?"
In order to perceive, a being must first believe. Whether by consideration or by force, a being will not perceive that which does not exist for him personally. Some people have lots of trouble with money, 2D relationships, ... Well, that about covers the biggies within the range of my perceptions.

Creative processing works wonders. Imagine a wall, a big wall, a small wall, a wall holding back a hill, the wall of a building, a green wall, a blue wall, and so on. Eventually the being will perceive walls in life. Creative processing on money works, too. There is plenty of money out there, maybe too much. I have heard there is more money than could buy all the GDP of every country in the world. So why is it that some people can't perceive it?

Another way to reach an apparent as-isness is to lose interest, and quit feeding the person, place, or thing one's attention. Like my in-basket used to do, dispatches pile up to the point where all can't be addressed in short order. I found that if I ignored the basket completely, just got on with my work, nearly all of it just became superfluous Dev-T.

Bottom Line
The law of conservation of energy, if correct, states that energy may neither be created nor destroyed. Therefore the sum of all the energies in a system is a constant.

In that sense and context, fossil fuel goes up in smoke. Meat bodies consume food and oxygen. They poop and breathe out carbon dioxide. Etc., etc. Nothing is lost, nothing gained, only a conversion of energy takes place.

Yet, the law does not account for that mischievous little bugger, the spiritual being.

I no longer concern myself with as-isness. Sometimes all that's necessary is to call "Bullshit!" and move on. The world with all the beings "in" it is a fascinating place with lots of stuff to get into.

There's more...

But I am rambling.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: Perceptions, More On

Extrapolating backwards...

There is a process where the pc is caused to duplicate an object many times. If the pc is in fairly good shape, the object will disappear for him. If the auditor is tracking along with the pc, the object will disappear for him as well. Before any naysayers speak up, I will say that I have experienced this phenomena.

However, the object does not disappear for every other being whose gaze might lay upon said object.

And, at session end, the object rests as it was in the beginning of session.

Hubbard alluded to thetans being "proofed up" to the point where they could/would as-is the physical universe, if not in its entirety then certainly in a small, no, very, very small part. From time to time we hear stories from some being who has just gone "up the pole" of such things happening. Closer to everyday-reality, who hasn't lost their keys? And what happens to all those missing socks in the dryer?

The question of, "Where does an as-ised object, condition, problem, etc. go?" is easily answered: Just use Hubbard's explanation! It disappeared! It's gone!

Perhaps as-isness was just a hair-brained theory that requires further experimentation and explanation.

There is the situation of a pc's difficulty vanishing to never return. There is also the situation of the pc's difficulty returning again and again no matter how much auditing is received. This suggests to me that the (object, difficulty, condition, person of interest, etc.) did not disappear, but the comm line(s) into that (whatever) did. Once the comm line is restored by whatever means, the condition returns for the pc. This leads to more incorrect or partially correct theory accepted as fact: Composite engrams, PTS, not all BPC found and addressed, out-ethics, etc.

"What wall?"
In order to perceive, a being must first believe. Whether by consideration or by force, a being will not perceive that which does not exist for him personally. Some people have lots of trouble with money, 2D relationships, ... Well, that about covers the biggies within the range of my perceptions.

Creative processing works wonders. Imagine a wall, a big wall, a small wall, a wall holding back a hill, the wall of a building, a green wall, a blue wall, and so on. Eventually the being will perceive walls in life. Creative processing on money works, too. There is plenty of money out there, maybe too much. I have heard there is more money than could buy all the GDP of every country in the world. So why is it that some people can't perceive it?

Another way to reach an apparent as-isness is to lose interest, and quit feeding the person, place, or thing one's attention. Like my in-basket used to do, dispatches pile up to the point where all can't be addressed in short order. I found that if I ignored the basket completely, just got on with my work, nearly all of it just became superfluous Dev-T.

Bottom Line
The law of conservation of energy, if correct, states that energy may neither be created nor destroyed. Therefore the sum of all the energies in a system is a constant.

In that sense and context, fossil fuel goes up in smoke. Meat bodies consume food and oxygen. They poop and breathe out carbon dioxide. Etc., etc. Nothing is lost, nothing gained, only a conversion of energy takes place.

Yet, the law does not account for that mischievous little bugger, the spiritual being.

I no longer concern myself with as-isness. Sometimes all that's necessary is to call "Bullshit!" and move on. The world with all the beings "in" it is a fascinating place with lots of stuff to get into.

There's more...

But I am rambling.

Thanks for this entertaining and informative post. Your comments about the missing socks in the dryer caught my eye. This happens all the time! Say one buys 10 pair of tan socks, in about 2 months, only 4 o4 5 will be intact and the other socks are now singles. Sometimes they are fairly close in design and color and in a pinch one will wear an unmatched set but for really important events, you don't dare mismatch socks so if there is no time to do another load of laundry, you stop at a store on the way to the event and buy a pair. Meanwhile, the missing socks almost never turn up!

Your "bottom line" section is also interesting. People first studying physics are always trying to beat the Conservation of Energy law. One good example is winding up a mechanical motor such as is used for a kid's toy or a wrist watch. Using the law, you expend energy winding up the mechanism and then recover it when the moving parts of the toy or watch move.

Someone dreamed up winding up the mechanism and then throwing it in a vat of acid. The acid eats the metal in the coiled metal so it doesn't get a chance to unwind. What happens to the energy stored by putting out energy in the winding process. The physics professor suggested that it might go to heating up the acid, assuming a wound coil would generate more heat while dissolving than an unwound coil. What if you wound up the coil, put it on the ground and dropped a heavy weight on it to crush it. It seems like the potential energy in the coil would be as-ised. Maybe its the effort of crushing the coil which keeps the system balanced.

The best one I ever heard was the example of a stake truck carrying a bunch of birds in the bed of the truck and driving up a steep hill. In the example, the birds weighed 100 pounds total and the driver was having trouble making it up the hill so he decided to make a load noise by firing his gun thus causing the birds to take flight. He reasoned that the truck would lighten by 100 lbs which would enable it to make the hill. The top of the stake truck bed was covered with a canvas cover so the birds were prevented from flying away but they flew up off of the bed of the truck.

The answer we were told was that when the birds flapped their wings, 100 lbs of air pressure would be forced down upon the bed of the truck so no weight loss would occur and the truck would not make the grade. This seems correct. To get the effect desired, the canvas top would have to be removed to allow the birds to fly out of the previously closed system.
Lakey
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Perceptions, More On

[...]
The answer we were told was that when the birds flapped their wings, 100 lbs of air pressure would be forced down upon the bed of the truck so no weight loss would occur and the truck would not make the grade. This seems correct. To get the effect desired, the canvas top would have to be removed to allow the birds to fly out of the previously closed system.
Lakey


Still, one struggles with the matter of perception: If you are looking at a cue ball on a simple bank shot the expenditures of energy are rather simple to figure as they are in plain sight: length of shot, angle, resistance of the felt, trueness of the deflection ... In other words, did the ball jump because the player hit it too hard? And so on...

As for the bird example, lots of variables there. I don't know that the simple "birds in flight" answer is a complete one as there are other forces at play.

Under complete analysis, I would bet that the law of conservation of energy would hold true in that example.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: A Little Housekeeping Chore

Speed demon. :eyeroll:

Sounds like a rough ride. I preferred smooth sailing in a vessel which was shipshape & Bristol fashion and with a crew that knew what they were required to do and were capable of it no matter the state of the sea. What amazes me most about the old SO sailing stories is that they didn't wind up with any one dead.


Mark A. Baker :coolwink:


Well, I've always tended to be a tad Cowboy:coolwink:.

I, too, am amazed that we didn't wind up with anyone dead. I think a large factor in that is the fact that most SO Vessels rarely went to Sea and even the Apollo spent well over half its' time in Port. :yes:

Oh, and of course there were all them "OT's" on board. :hysterical:


Face :)
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

lkwdbids and me said:
Me: Science certainly does not deny the existence of God. Science is entirely neutral on the question of God's existence. Nor does science actually deny the existence of intelligent design as such. It is again neutral on this topic. What most scientists do deny, strongly and in my opinion quite rightly, is the claim that evidence for intelligent design exists. That's why they don't want intelligent design being presented as science. But just because they think there is no evidence for it, doesn't mean they think there is evidence against it.

lkwdbids: This is where I tend to break away from you. I am talking the real world now, how things are out in society. You can't claim that Science is entirely neutral on the question of God's existence and on the existence of intelligent design and then in the next sentence state that what scientists deny strongly is the claim that intelligent design exists.

I think something critical is getting missed here. There are two questions:

1) Was the universe designed?
2) Do we have objective evidence that the universe was designed?

These questions are independent. Even if you say Yes to 2), you might still say No to 1), because sometimes evidence is misleading. Plenty of important scientific theories have flourished for a time, and then been discarded, because although there was some evidence in their favor, eventually more evidence accumulated against them. And certainly you might say Yes to 1) but No to 2).

Whether intelligent design should be taught in schools as a part of science is entirely about question 2), and not at all about question 1). So scientists are NOT saying that any particular phenomenon DEFINITELY WAS produced without design. They're only saying that, from what we know, it EASILY COULD HAVE BEEN produced without design. That means that there is no evidence for design, and so design has no place in a science curriculum.

In every case I know, as far as I can tell, everything easily could have been produced without design. Arguments I have heard to the contrary are really bad arguments, based on basic ignorance, sometimes even on stupidity. In fact I believe in design, at least in some sense. So I say Yes to question 1), but No to question 2). And I believe strongly that intelligent design should NOT be taught in school science courses.
 
Vagina Monologues in Michigan

When our youngest daughter was in 6th grade, she said something so profound, that it is still quoted to this day in our family. The words were: "I hate stupid people."

This article, accompanied by a video is about some women legislators in Michigan, who might have that very same feeling toward the Republicans in the Michigan chamber.

*note: I have excerpted this, and published a link.




http://news.yahoo.com/silenced-mich-lawmaker-does-vagina-monologues-235603374.html


45d05d983372f111120f6a7067005428.jpg


Rep Lisa Brown, D-West Bloomfield reads her part during a performance of "The Vagina Monologues" with 10 other lawmakers and several actresses on the Michigan Statehouse steps, Monday, June 18, 2012, in Lansing, Mich. Brown, who says she was barred from speaking in the Michigan House because Republicans objected to her saying "vagina" during debate over anti-abortion legislation, performed "The Vagina Monologues" with a hand from the author Eve Ensler. (AP Photo/Detroit News, Dale G. Young)

170c7bc63379f111120f6a7067002110.jpg



Rep. Barb Byrum, D-Onondaga, from left, Rep. Lisa Brown, D-West Bloomfield, playwright Eve Ensler and Sen. Rebecca Warren, D-Ann Arbor, pose for a group picture during an event including a performance of "The Vagina Monologues" by Brown and 10 other lawmakers on the Michigan Statehouse steps, Monday, June 18, 2012, in Lansing, Mich. Brown, who says she was barred from speaking in the Michigan House because Republicans objected to her saying "vagina" during debate over anti-abortion legislation, performed "The Vagina Monologues" with a hand from the author Eve Ensler. (AP Photo/Detroit News, Dale G. Young)
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Re: Vagina Monologues in Michigan

Unbelievable! Would they have preferred "cunt", "pussy", or "snatch" instead? I'm going to go bang my head against the wall now.
:duh:

I think Romney is in Michigan today. I suppose he'll be asked about his position on the vagina.
:roflmao:
 
Re: Vagina Monologues in Michigan

Unbelievable! Would they have preferred "cunt", "pussy", or "snatch" instead? I'm going to go bang my head against the wall now.
:duh:

Don't be so quick to judge!

When you're an asshole, maybe all you can see are assholes.

It may be more a misunderstood word phenomena.

Someone should have told them that the Stork was like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Much of Hubbies old crap has been turned into a shrine ....so what became of the Apollo & the other 2 rust buckets ?

Did the ranch in Creston become a weekend place for DM ? What of the ' backup' ranch ?

At one point wasn't a rather nice house in Santa Barbara acquired for the old man?
If so, what became of that multi-million dollar house ?

Where the cameras go? Or the guns ?

In a cult that loves shrines to the leader a lot of stuff seems to just 'disappear'. Is this some kind of OT trick ?
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I think something critical is getting missed here. There are two questions:

1) Was the universe designed?
2) Do we have objective evidence that the universe was designed?

These questions are independent. Even if you say Yes to 2), you might still say No to 1), because sometimes evidence is misleading. Plenty of important scientific theories have flourished for a time, and then been discarded, because although there was some evidence in their favor, eventually more evidence accumulated against them. And certainly you might say Yes to 1) but No to 2).

Whether intelligent design should be taught in schools as a part of science is entirely about question 2), and not at all about question 1). So scientists are NOT saying that any particular phenomenon DEFINITELY WAS produced without design. They're only saying that, from what we know, it EASILY COULD HAVE BEEN produced without design. That means that there is no evidence for design, and so design has no place in a science curriculum.

In every case I know, as far as I can tell, everything easily could have been produced without design. Arguments I have heard to the contrary are really bad arguments, based on basic ignorance, sometimes even on stupidity. In fact I believe in design, at least in some sense. So I say Yes to question 1), but No to question 2). And I believe strongly that intelligent design should NOT be taught in school science courses.

I like your separation into two distinct questions.

I could be a real a-hole and use your own argument against you. Doing that, I would say to you that you and all we humans are insufficiently intelligent to make the determination that all things could have been produced easily without design. You see, the designer is trans-intelligent, so vastly superior to you in intelligence that its level of intelligence is beyond intelligence. Therefore the evidence of design is there but you are not intelligent enough enough to discern it

EXAMPLE
A dog pees on a fire hydrant. The dog applies a sniff test to the fire hydrant; this test does not reveal that the fire hydrant was designed by anyone or anything, therefore the dog concludes that the fire hydrant could easily exist without design. Actually the fire hydrant WAS designed by humans but their intelligence is so vastly superior to that of the dog that the dog can't comprehend it. Therefore the dog reaches an incorrect conclusion. I rest my case... er sorry, I mean I rest your case.
Lakey
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: Perceptions, More On

Still, one struggles with the matter of perception: If you are looking at a cue ball on a simple bank shot the expenditures of energy are rather simple to figure as they are in plain sight: length of shot, angle, resistance of the felt, trueness of the deflection ... In other words, did the ball jump because the player hit it too hard? And so on...

As for the bird example, lots of variables there. I don't know that the simple "birds in flight" answer is a complete one as there are other forces at play.

Under complete analysis, I would bet that the law of conservation of energy would hold true in that example.

Sure, the conservation of energy holds true in the bird example but there are two distinct cases: Case 1 - the bed of the truck has a lid so when they fly inside the truck bed, their 100 lbs of mass is replaced by air pressure equal to 100 pounds pressing down on the bed of the truck. It's tricky only because our perception does not see the air pressure which their flapping wings causes to push down on the truck bed.

Case 2 - If the canvas lid were removed from the truck before the birds fly away there is no longer a closed system. Immediately upon lift off, the truck would not get lighter but in a few seconds time the truck would be 100 lbs lighter. You're right about a lot of forces coming into play. Probably most of the pressure would be absorbed by the bed of the truck during lift off. Then it is likely that a portion of the air pressure would be dissipated in the air outside the truck. It would be a complex dissipation but under complete analysis the law of conservation would have to hold true.
Lakey
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Quote taken fro "Ron, The War Hero:

"There can be no doubt that the PC-815 was not a corvette, as almost every physical characteristic is different. (In fact, the term "corvette" as used by the British covered a wide variety of small warships, with displacements of anything from 700 to 1,500 tonnes; but even the smallest corvette still had more than twice the displacement of the YP-422).


"In all, 317 steel-hulled PCs were completed. Unlike corvettes, they were not long-range oceanic vessels but were tasked with escorting ships along the USA's long and vulnerable coastlines. It has to be said that they were not particularly well-suited to this task, though in fairness it was not what they were designed to do. The original purpose of PCs was to operate as harbour-based craft that could be used in groups to hunt down submarines operating offshore. The USA's desperate shortage of anti-submarine vessels at the start of the war necessitated the use of PCs as escort vessels instead.

"The weak armament of PCs made them fairly ineffective at sinking submarines. Only 3 submarines were sunk by the entire PC fleet in the course of the war; all, curiously, within a single eight-week period. Their usefulness lay more in the deterrent effect which they had upon enemy submarines and in the support which they were able to provide to more capable ships."
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Quote taken fro "Ron, The War Hero:

"There can be no doubt that the PC-815 was not a corvette, as almost every physical characteristic is different. (In fact, the term "corvette" as used by the British covered a wide variety of small warships, with displacements of anything from 700 to 1,500 tonnes; but even the smallest corvette still had more than twice the displacement of the YP-422).


"In all, 317 steel-hulled PCs were completed. Unlike corvettes, they were not long-range oceanic vessels but were tasked with escorting ships along the USA's long and vulnerable coastlines. It has to be said that they were not particularly well-suited to this task, though in fairness it was not what they were designed to do. The original purpose of PCs was to operate as harbour-based craft that could be used in groups to hunt down submarines operating offshore. The USA's desperate shortage of anti-submarine vessels at the start of the war necessitated the use of PCs as escort vessels instead.

"The weak armament of PCs made them fairly ineffective at sinking submarines. Only 3 submarines were sunk by the entire PC fleet in the course of the war; all, curiously, within a single eight-week period. Their usefulness lay more in the deterrent effect which they had upon enemy submarines and in the support which they were able to provide to more capable ships."

Thanks and now a musical word from the enemy: (song starts at 0:16)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pddW-HeHAwo

Lakey
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I like your separation into two distinct questions.

I could be a real a-hole and use your own argument against you. Doing that, I would say to you that you and all we humans are insufficiently intelligent to make the determination that all things could have been produced easily without design. You see, the designer is trans-intelligent, so vastly superior to you in intelligence that its level of intelligence is beyond intelligence. Therefore the evidence of design is there but you are not intelligent enough enough to discern it.

That is entirely possible — and entirely irrelevant. Things do not and should not get into school science curricula because there exists evidence for them that is recognizable by archangels. They do and should get into science curricula because, and only because, there is evidence for them that is recognizable by humans.

In other words, your argument is a pointless quibble on the definition of 'evidence'. This may be a clever debating tactic, but it verges on sophistry.
 
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