Tony O asks why we believe in Xenu

[Claire Swazey]

As if.

Do yourself a favor, switch off Faux News & Limbaugh. Your brain will thank you.


Mark A. Baker

I listen to neither, thank you. It isn't just conservatives who talk about The Nanny State. luuurve making fun of that. And diversity, too. Not because diversity is bad, but because so many people are utterly hypocritical about it. Like some of the Liberals who post here, for example.

There's nothing like mocking punditry and conventional wisdom. It's sbout the most amount of fun I can have with my clothes on and my legs together.

 

[Claire Swazey]

On the topic of this thread.

I see a lot of equivocating, ie Catholics do exorcisms so scientologist auditing BTs is the same thing. Which brings me to my point how many of you actually got into scientology because it was a faith based system?

Wasn't Dyanetics the modern science of mental health or some such claim?

So my question comes back to the concept of scientology as a religion. Is that a major draw of scientology, replacing / substituting a belief sytem?

If not does equivocating scientology practices to religious practices even make sense?

I think getting rid of BTs (allegedly) does equate to any other sort of exorcism, yes.

But your point as to why people get into Scn vs what they get later is also a very good point. You're on a roll with that one, IMO.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... Scientology as a "religious organization" has approximately the same level of legitimacy as the Universal Life Church, which for $10 and a stamped self-addressed envelope will "ordain" anyone who requests it.
...

Same as the various catholics, anglicans, orthodox, and other various culturally 'mainstream' religious denominations then.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Infinite]

. . . For example, a PC who runs perfectly, yet cannot go wholetrack is programmed to do the "Past Life Remedy". That kills your Class VIII theory about not evaluating what a meter reaction means. Because if a person does not read on what they are SUPPOSED TO read on (e.g. they don't have reality or "read" on past lives) then they are "programmed" and "handled" until they do read on past lives . . .

Thank you. This is the clearest example I have seen of how people are programmed to believe in Xenu. There's the whole lead up to even starting with Auditing: the concept of past lives, the adoration of L Ron Hubbard as a sci-fi writer and something of a prophet, the subtle hints and subtext in the promotional and training material, valcanoes everywhere, and the endless "earlier similar" mantra driving a person's imagination towards finding suitable patterns from given images all around them to meet the Auditor's "command".

I didn't know about the "Past Life Remedie" (AKA HCO BULLETIN OF 16 JANUARY 1975):

". . . There are many remedies and considerable tech developed over the years on the subject of pcs unable to go earlier than this life. There was no full coverage bulletin which gave the full story on this.

The earliest was getting the pc to locate and run imaginary incidents. This is fully
covered in Science of Survival, especially Book Two, Chapter Nine, “Imaginary
Incidents”. The auditor clears the idea of imaginary incidents and running them, then persuades the pc to run them without forcing him.

Delusion tends to run off but the real incidents move into view as well. These
imaginary incidents can be run R3R narrative or done as part of R3R procedure and
running usual items and somatics. It can be incorporated into the AESPs run on the
Past Life Remedy as part of the action of grooving in the pc . . . "

As I understand it, the unfortunate PC unable to recall past lives, after paying for Auditing, is told to run imaginary incidents which, according to L Ron Hubbard, brings real incidents into view. Zero evidence is presented for how this happens or how the e-meter can tell the difference between imaginary incidents and real incidents when the person believes both to be true. So, having already been made to feel something of a failure for not having past life memories, the PC now has to pay for an additional process which morphs imagination into "reality" in how ever many hours of hypnotic-like trance sessions.

<sigh> Once again, I'm reminded: Scientology - its always worse than you think.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Whatchutalkinbout Mark?

What part of 'We report YOU decide' do you not understand?

LOL, "We spin, you believe" is more like it for mainstream 'merca

 

[PirateAndBum]

WITCH + WATER = MELTING

LRH + TRUTH = SHRINKING

​

God HH! So out-tech! Let me straighten out this situation right now with standard on-source data gleened from the highest otnesses available in this sector at the freeway curbside INCOMM dispenser of the Co$ located at Hwy 86 mile-marker 9

LRH + TRUTH = AS-ISING​

I hope this clarifies and revivicates your predilictions for prevarificating on such matters. See it's just like hisself said! Dat dare church is as-isin pretty durn good.

Cost $500 for each friggin query too, but I'm entered in a raffle for a new Ford Fiesta! Hoo ha!

 

[PirateAndBum]

I think getting rid of BTs (allegedly) does equate to any other sort of exorcism, yes.

But your point as to why people get into Scn vs what they get later is also a very good point. You're on a roll with that one, IMO.

You know that is really seriously funny Claire!

What is funny is how Terrill and now you are trying to spin OT III - OT VII into some kind of equivalency with other religion's rare practice (oh, yes Terrill pls don't come back and argue how the native Filipino tribe do it quite frequently! Yes and some people practice head hunting/shrinking too. Save it OK?)

Let's compare these so-called exorcism practices with a Scientologist that goes into session every day for 10 or more years to exorcise his little demons on OT VII. See it really is NOT comparable at all. Those poor Catholics aren't handling their cases at all at all at all! Oh wait, neither are the OT VII's! Anyway.

I have to side with Veda on this one. You be spinning Terrill

I have no problem with those that want to What/Who their little buddies into bye-bye land. I've done a bit of it meself. I just think you should be up front about it all.

So what if people think you're nuts. They weren't gonna get involved anyway. I'm sure there are those that on hearing this kinda stuff probably say, wooo, cool!

Welcome to the kool-aid stand my friend!

All HAIL Xenu!

I do enjoy sounding insane at times. It's quite a lot of fun!

 

[Infinite]

..

Re-reading this thread, I am reminded of a masterful post by Gerry Armstrong. In essence, Gerry points out that Scientologists are unable to tell the truth about Scientology because, for them to do so would "as-is" the subject and - pooooooffff - it would disappear.

" . . . Scientologists constantly program and reprogram themselves with their universal postulate when they proclaim and swear that what’s true is what’s true for them. The only things that can be true for them that are not already true are lies.

The universal Scientology postulate of having lies be true degenerates into the postulate to have some lies be true, or to have even one lie be true. This hopeless postulate, I’m sure you noticed, degenerates into the endless effort to get others to agree that a lie is true. By that agreement, Scientologists postulate and agree, they create reality, that is, they make a lie true. Thank God, of course, they don’t . . . "

Well, they have, sort of, in that it has become an accepted reality in the US that Scientology is a "religion" and that lie is endlessly perpetuated when others compare Scientology's insanity to proper religions. Truth is, however, Scientology is an on-going organised criminal conspiracy to defraud and has been since the day L Ron Hubbard issued the first lie when said he used Dianetics to cure war injuries. Perhaps there really is something to Axiom 38 - basically, for something to persist it must contain a lie - because, here we are, sixty years later, dealing with the myriad offspring of that first lie.

 

[Smilla]

snipped

Current Freezone PR Nonsense:

1. Arriving 2 or 3 at a time on any thread critical of the Freezone, blustering and protesting with huge simulated moral indignance, injecting enough commotion into the mix to kill the thread. It's exactly the same fake moral outrage thing that the Cof$ uses.

2. Asserting that anything about Scientology which is contentious - Such as the States of Clear and OT, or the Xenu rubbish, is Metaphor, not be taken literally. This is fundamental dishonesty, as Clear, OT, and the Xenu rubbish have always been presented as fact, and still are. The Freezone sells a Bridge just like the Cof$, but an even longer and more bizarre one in the Case of Ron's Orgs.

3. Whenever any criticism is made of the Freezone that contains an accusation of abuse - brainwashing etc, the reply goes: "Tell that to the Catholics, Jews, Muslims" etc. Don't look at us - look over there. Look over there. Look over there. Look over there.

There's a lot besides, but that's mostly what's going on just now.

The "Why are you against human rights?" and "Don't you want people to have wins?" nonsense seems to have been dropped due to people ridiculing them, and having a good laugh at the silliness of them.

snipped

OT III is taught by Hubbard as being absolute fact, true in every precise detail, as the only way to deal with a very real problem - the disastrous effects of BT's.

The method employed to deal with the problem must be followed exactly as ordered by Hubbard.

But Zoners are now saying that they flat out don't believe it, but if you do the steps precisely as ordered, great results ensue.

So you're running BT's - which you don't believe in, through incidents that you don't believe in, to solve a problem you don't believe in, for a reason you don't believe in.

This is:

A. Superstition.

Superstition is a belief in supernatural causality: that one event leads to the cause of another without any physical process linking the two events, such as astrology, omens, witchcraft, etc., that contradicts natural science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstition

and

B. Magical thinking.

"Quasi-magical thinking" describes "cases in which people act as if they erroneously believe that their action influences the outcome, even though they do not really hold that belief". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

Honestly, you were better off before you agreed on the 'it's all metaphor' PR strategy - you're just making yourselves look silly. Can't you see that?

You know that is really seriously funny Claire!

What is funny is how Terrill and now you are trying to spin OT III - OT VII into some kind of equivalency with other religion's rare practice (oh, yes Terrill pls don't come back and argue how the native Filipino tribe do it quite frequently! Yes and some people practice head hunting/shrinking too. Save it OK?)

Let's compare these so-called exorcism practices with a Scientologist that goes into session every day for 10 or more years to exorcise his little demons on OT VII. See it really is NOT comparable at all. Those poor Catholics aren't handling their cases at all at all at all! Oh wait, neither are the OT VII's! Anyway.

I have to side with Veda on this one. You be spinning Terrill

I have no problem with those that want to What/Who their little buddies into bye-bye land. I've done a bit of it meself. I just think you should be up front about it all.

So what if people think you're nuts. They weren't gonna get involved anyway. I'm sure there are those that on hearing this kinda stuff probably say, wooo, cool!

Welcome to the kool-aid stand my friend!

All HAIL Xenu!

I do enjoy sounding insane at times. It's quite a lot of fun!

Spin, spin, and nothing but spin!

I just had a psychic teleconference with Siberian, Sami, Native American, and rainforest Shamen, and discussed OT III with them, and they said: "We wouldn't do stupid stuff like that - what do you think we are? We use Ayahuasca, not Koolaid,"*

*I didn't really - I was speaking metaphorically.

 

[Terril park]

You know that is really seriously funny Claire!

What is funny is how Terrill and now you are trying to spin OT III - OT VII into some kind of equivalency with other religion's rare practice (oh, yes Terrill pls don't come back and argue how the native Filipino tribe do it quite frequently! Yes and some people practice head hunting/shrinking too. Save it OK?)

Let's compare these so-called exorcism practices with a Scientologist that goes into session every day for 10 or more years to exorcise his little demons on OT VII. See it really is NOT comparable at all. Those poor Catholics aren't handling their cases at all at all at all! Oh wait, neither are the OT VII's! Anyway.

I have to side with Veda on this one. You be spinning Terrill

I have no problem with those that want to What/Who their little buddies into bye-bye land. I've done a bit of it meself. I just think you should be up front about it all.

So what if people think you're nuts. They weren't gonna get involved anyway. I'm sure there are those that on hearing this kinda stuff probably say, wooo, cool!

Welcome to the kool-aid stand my friend!

All HAIL Xenu!

I do enjoy sounding insane at times. It's quite a lot of fun!

I couldn't care less if people think I'm nuts and I'm not spinning anything.

The term "excorcism" for auditing scn upper levels was coined by critics,
and so I use that.

I've not observed any Philipino "excorcisms", I'm not allowed. As far as I can tell they are one off, or maybe a few encounters, as opposed to the Scn
ideal of auditing everyday.

Having been married to a gregarious Philipino for 20 + years I've met very many of them so its a community I know. I've observed that almost all are catholic and most seem to find the local shaman/witchdoctor as important or powerful as the local priest.

Why take my word for things? A very brief except from the hundreds of
websites on Philipino Shamanism and religion. Enough to get you started



http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Way_of_the_Ancient_Healer.html?id=KXmIq_BGr8wC&redir_esc=y


http://www.babaylan.com/trans.html

Then their is the somewhat well known " Psychic Surgery".

http://www.shamanicjourney.com/arti...nd-psychic-surgeons-of-the-philippines-part-1

And here an overview:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Philippines

 

[Smilla]

Look over there >>

<< Look over there

Don't look over here.

 

[Terril park]

Having just looked at this URL below I'm reminded of a recent talk I attended given by a priest interested in such matters. he was particularly
interested in the excorcism of places.

Also you will see quoted just some of the very many references to excorcism in the 4 Gospels. Everywhere Jesus went he cast out demons,
and he taught his deciples to do so also.

This is a URL from a catholic encyclopedia, so its comment that much Excorcism is based in Magic may be dcatho0lic "positioning" PR.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm

Here is an URL dealing promarily with protestant Excorcism, and its decscibed as becoming big business!

Whatever you think of excorcism there's a lot of it going on.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_exor4.htm


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_(demon)

The Gospel of Mark, 5:9, describes the following in the country of the Gadarenes:

And He (Jesus) asked him (the man), "What is thy name?" And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion: for we are many."[1]


There is an example of a Big Fail excorcism. DM stated that Anonymous had been defeated


“We are Anonymous. We are Legion. We do not forgive. We do not forget. Expect us.”


http://www.lisamcpherson.org/images/break_glass.jpg

 

[Smilla]

Look at the Filipinos.

Look at the Catholics.

Look at the Anglicans.

Don't look at us, don't look at us, don't look at us.

 

[SpecialFrog]

Yes, the Gospels talk a lot about exorcism. On the other hand, Paul's letters, which really form most of the basis for the Christian religion, talk very little on the subject.

There is absolutely nothing in any branch of Christianity with which I am familiar that teaches that everyone is infested with a "legion" of demons and needs exorcism as part of their spiritual development.

While the Catholic Church will still do exorcisms, they have to be approved by a Bishop. This is largely done to weed out the vast majority of cases of "possession" where the Church feels that psychiatric intervention is the appropriate response.

If the Scientology taught that a small minority of people had BTs that were causing their personal problems but that most people could achieve spiritual progress just fine without years of exorcism then your comparison would be valid.

However, that is not the case.

Trying to equate the two is like saying a religion centred on foot fetishism is basically the same as the Christianity because Jesus gets his feet washed at one point in the New Testament.

 

[Smilla]

Silly Scientologists silly PR strategy in this instance is to use genuine religions firstly to distract anyone making well-founded criticism of itself, and secondly to 'borrow' undeserved respectability from these genuine religions.

Silly scientologists think that they can confuse, misdirect, and 'handle' people by untruthful and invalid comparisons.

Doesn't work.

Never did, never will.

It just makes them look silly.

 

[Claire Swazey]

You know that is really seriously funny Claire!!

Yes. What's really funny is that you represent someone else giving her opinions as spin and that you want to lump people together. I find that utterly fucking hilarious.

What is funny is how Terrill and now you are trying to spin OT III - OT VII into some kind of equivalency with other religion's rare practice (oh, yes Terrill pls don't come back and argue how the native Filipino tribe do it quite frequently! Yes and some people practice head hunting/shrinking too. Save it OK?)

It's a public forum in which opinions and debate are posted. I gave my opinion. If that's a problem for you, I suggest you find a venue where only term papers are posted.

I personally believe that the BT theory is a lot like the exorcism, devil, possession, infestation ideas that appear in both aboriginal religions and in the Moses originated ones. That's my opinion.

Now, I base that opinion on having read about spirits and the idea that they can occupy or infest a body or person and that they cause problems and should be driven out. IMO, that's commonality.

But whether I'm right or wrong- it's my opinion, this is ESMB, and I'm free to render my opinions on the subject matter, such as they may be.

Let's compare these so-called exorcism practices with a Scientologist that goes into session every day for 10 or more years to exorcise his little demons on OT VII. See it really is NOT comparable at all. Those poor Catholics aren't handling their cases at all at all at all! Oh wait, neither are the OT VII's! Anyway.

Never said they were identical. But I see commonality there.

There are many beliefs that have counterparts in other religions. But they aren't even identical, are they. Christians believe in a God. They also believe in a murdered God who comes back from the Dead. Egyptians did, too. But JHVH/Elohim/Hashem- is very different from any Egyptian God of whom I've heard and Jesus is very different from Osiris or Horus. But that doesn't preclude the idea that both religions believed in deities and murdered gods.

I don't believe that any theory or ideological belief that has similarity from one religion to another is ever going to be identical in the other religion. People change stuff. Cultures differ. Myths differ. But that doesn't mean there's no commonality.

So I'm not inclined to back down on my point, particularly since I'm not representing that they are the exact same theory. If one wanted to see the exact same theory, one would have to stay in the same place and venue. But, at the same time, it would be utterly foolish to ever assume that there aren't similar beliefs in other venues. Similar. Not identical.

Oh, and blow me.

 

[PirateAndBum]

snip

Your reply is of course textbook you.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Having just looked at this URL below I'm reminded of a recent talk I attended given by a priest interested in such matters. he was particularly interested in the excorcism of places.

Also you will see quoted just some of the very many references to excorcism in the 4 Gospels. Everywhere Jesus went he cast out demons, and he taught his deciples to do so also.

This is a URL from a catholic encyclopedia, so its comment that much Excorcism is based in Magic may be dcatho0lic "positioning" PR.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm

Here is an URL dealing promarily with protestant Excorcism, and its decscibed as becoming big business!

Whatever you think of excorcism there's a lot of it going on.

Terril!

Yes there sure is a lot of exorcism going on. Scios I'm sure are outstripping all other's by a wide margin daily. By Jupiter! I think we have an actual stat that Scios are excelling at, no wait, it's probably on a decline from higher levels in the past, oh well, bummer. But you could put the Miscavige spin on it and say "We exorcise more demons every day then the Catholic Church does in a year!"

By the end of SNOTs a person has handled at least a few thousand, but more likely millions or billions or more (super clusters) of entities. Christians aren't all expected to get demon exorcism, to suggest that this is "common practice" in Christianity in today's churches is absurd. Go take a survey in your town in England, "Are you Christian? Have you been demon exorcised today? this month? ever?". You know as well as I what the ballpark results will be.

Really, this is NOT like Jesus telling a demon to take a hike, a very poor analogy at best.

Don't need links to other stuff! This isn't a discussion of the "History & Practice of Exorcism", it's about spinning what the OT Levels are all about. All you are doing is further supporting the claim that you try to spin the OT Levels with a derail into Exorcism.

It is actually very squirrelly of you and degrading of the OT Levels to compare them to mere exorcism practices. It's a science remember, not to be compared to some archaic mumbo jumbo out of the R6 bank! Scios are such wusses, Ron would kick your ass straight into the RPF Terril.

You just keep spin digging that hole. Pretty soon you'll find yourself in the Aussie outback where perhaps you can find a shaman who can exorcise more of your demons.

Defend yourself! phooey, let them run you through with their words, for words cannot touch you nor your knowledge until you put up shield

 

[SomeGuy]

I don't believe that any theory or ideological belief that has similarity from one religion to another is ever going to be identical in the other religion. People change stuff. Cultures differ. Myths differ. But that doesn't mean there's no commonality.

Well this kind of goes back to my question. Would you consider Scientologists creation story (xenu and the "suppression" of thetans via brain washing) to have similarities with the other major religious stories? Would you consider xenu to be the lucifer / fall of mankind event?

That is assuming we are now equating OTIII to Genesis (Buddhist / Judeo-Christian-Muslim / Hindu) which all share some commonalities. I don't see the commonality between the Xenu story and the others. My opinion of course. That OTIII is hidden from most scientologists until they are "ready" to hear it also breaks that similarity with most major religions where the origin story is the basis not the conclusion for peoples faith.

Any ways, I would bet most if not all practicing scientoligists fall into the Baker camp of it's a philosophy not a religion and would probably look askance at equivocating the two. I could be wrong though but at it's core, the religious cloaking, would seem to be counter to the tenets of how you "evolve" your thetan.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Oh, and blow me.

Seems I am equipped for you to blow me, not the other way 'round.

You are always yapping about your right to speak. Nobody is denying you your right to speak Claire, so stuff it in whatever place you find appropriate.

The topic of the moment is spin/dissembling about the OT Levels.

Off you and Terril trot on exorcism.