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Tony O asks why we believe in Xenu

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
Well this kind of goes back to my question. Would you consider Scientologists creation story (xenu and the "suppression" of thetans via brain washing) to have similarities with the other major religious stories? Would you consider xenu to be the lucifer / fall of mankind event?

That is assuming we are now equating OTIII to Genesis (Buddhist / Judeo-Christian-Muslim / Hindu) which all share some commonalities. I don't see the commonality between the Xenu story and the others. My opinion of course. That OTIII is hidden from most scientologists until they are "ready" to hear it also breaks that similarity with most major religions where the origin story is the basis not the conclusion for peoples faith.

Any ways, I would bet most if not all practicing scientoligists fall into the Baker camp of it's a philosophy not a religion and would probably look askance at equivocating the two. I could be wrong though but at it's core, the religious cloaking, would seem to be counter to the tenets of how you "evolve" your thetan.

OT III is not a creation story. It is a "downfall of this sector of the galaxy" story.
"The Factors" is more of a creation story if you're looking for one.

As to similarity, no there is no similarity in Scn to the Christian creation story. Scios believe that man is basically good. That we are the creators of this universe, not some God, i.e. we are all gods.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Look at the Filipinos.

Look at the Catholics.

Look at the Anglicans.

Don't look at us, don't look at us, don't look at us.

Ah, but for me, it's not "us". I'm not a Scientologist. I've endeavored to explain my thoughts on this. I've as much right to express opinions as anyone else. I don't need to be mocked for it or called an "us" or have it be like I'm telling people not to look at stuff.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Seems I am equipped for you to blow me, not the other way 'round.

You are always yapping about your right to speak. Nobody is denying you your right to speak Claire, so stuff it in whatever place you find appropriate.

The topic of the moment is spin/dissembling about the OT Levels.

Off you and Terril trot on exorcism.

I love when dudes say blow me or suck my dick. And I use those expressions. Just as whatshername did when she sang the Star Spangled banner at the World's Series or whatever it was and grabbed her crotch. There weren't nuttin' much in there to grab, tho.

So like why should I be left out of the fun, yah?

And there is no Terril and me. And I'm not trotting.

You may not be out right denying my right to speak but you've indicated some measure of chagrin at my posting my opinions and the fact that I have the ones that I have. I believe the term was "spin", wasn't it?

That's not exactly in the spirit of discussion, debate and exchange of ideas.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Ah, but for me, it's not "us". I'm not a Scientologist. I've endeavored to explain my thoughts on this. I've as much right to express opinions as anyone else. I don't need to be mocked for it or called an "us" or have it be like I'm telling people not to look at stuff.

Not talking about you Claire. Don't know why you've got that impression.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Silly Scientologists silly PR strategy in this instance is to use genuine religions firstly to distract anyone making well-founded criticism of itself, and secondly to 'borrow' undeserved respectability from these genuine religions.

Silly scientologists think that they can confuse, misdirect, and 'handle' people by untruthful and invalid comparisons.

Doesn't work.

Never did, never will.

It just makes them look silly.

I'm not a Scientologist and I've been posting quite a bit on this topic.

I honestly don't see why it should upset anyone- because, really, a couple of you do actually sound pissed off- for someone else to have the personal opinion (and then post it) that there's commonality.

Spirits is spirits. If they infest ya they infest ya.

But even if I were out and out rong, that wouldn't make me a Scn'ist, it wouldn't mean that I was spinning or anything else.

Other people's views are not a threat to yours. They really aren't. Neither is the free expression of such views that differ from yours.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Some of these posts sound very angry. Not everyone has the same thoughts on these things.

As it happens, I've studied a lot of comparative religion. But even if I hadn't or even if I had drawn incorrect conclusions, so what? Why get so angry and worked up over it?

It sounds like cognitive dissonance. It sounds panicky. It sounds the way I used to feel when I very first found internet discussion groups that I thought (at the time) were "bashing" my "religion". But I realized people had a right to their opinions and that I, back then, belonged to a group that felt threatened by that and that I should not feel threatened by those views.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
I couldn't care less if people think I'm nuts and I'm not spinning anything.

The term "excorcism" for auditing scn upper levels was coined by critics,
and so I use that.


That's absolutely right. I have heard critics call it exorcism. (I think we're supposed to drop that first "C" in the word. I misspelled it the other day.)

Evidently, though, one is only supposed to use the term ironically and one is not supposed to disagree with the status quo. Oh, and that means one is supposed to be a mind reader.

Wow. It's like being in CofS again. Good job, everyone.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human

That's absolutely right. I have heard critics call it exorcism. (I think we're supposed to drop that first "C" in the word. I misspelled it the other day.)

Evidently, though, one is only supposed to use the term ironically and one is not supposed to disagree with the status quo. Oh, and that means one is supposed to be a mind reader.

Wow. It's like being in CofS again. Good job, everyone.

You know Claire, I haven't the faintest idea why you've taken my comments as being directed at you. They're not.

And I have no problem with you having an opinion different from my own. Why would I?
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
It's interesting that you do come out posting when dear Terril is under the gun. I've seen it many many times. And YES YES YES YES you have EVERY FRIGGIN RIGHT TO DO THAT IF YOU WISH.

LOL, ok?

I'm certainly not the least bit upset. It's hilarious.

The subject was lying about OT III. Not comparative religious studies in exorcism. So you take that ball and start running with it, you get lumped in - simple enough.


EDIT: Yes, I agree with Smilla. You can have all the opinions you want and express them however and as much as you like. I will do the same.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Probably. Hubbard robbed everyone.

My point is that the Xenu story is a later add-on, ostensibly accounting for disembodied bts/clusters surrounding us all, rather than a story of creation. Scientology's creation story is that you decided to be, chose a beingness, and it's all been downhill from there.
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
Probably. Hubbard robbed everyone.

My point is that the Xenu story is a later add-on, ostensibly accounting for disembodied bts/clusters surrounding us all, rather than a story of creation. Scientology's creation story is that you decided to be, chose a beingness, and it's all been downhill from there.

Agreed. I wasn't trying to derail, I just keep seeing reference to the Factors lately and it's on my mind to re-find what I read. :)

The Factors, I can see being a keystone belief for Scn as well as a creation story. Xenu? Nah. Never heard of him/it until I decided to go looking for the story online.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
:omg: Terril!

Yes there sure is a lot of exorcism going on. Scios I'm sure are outstripping all other's by a wide margin daily. By Jupiter! I think we have an actual stat that Scios are excelling at, no wait, it's probably on a decline from higher levels in the past, oh well, bummer. But you could put the Miscavige spin on it and say "We exorcise more demons every day then the Catholic Church does in a year!"

By the end of SNOTs a person has handled at least a few thousand, but more likely millions or billions or more (super clusters) of entities. Christians aren't all expected to get demon exorcism, to suggest that this is "common practice" in Christianity in today's churches is absurd. Go take a survey in your town in England, "Are you Christian? Have you been demon exorcised today? this month? ever?". You know as well as I what the ballpark results will be.

Really, this is NOT like Jesus telling a demon to take a hike, a very poor analogy at best.

Don't need links to other stuff! This isn't a discussion of the "History & Practice of Exorcism", it's about spinning what the OT Levels are all about. All you are doing is further supporting the claim that you try to spin the OT Levels with a derail into Exorcism.

It is actually very squirrelly of you and degrading of the OT Levels to compare them to mere exorcism practices. It's a science remember, not to be compared to some archaic mumbo jumbo out of the R6 bank! Scios are such wusses, Ron would kick your ass straight into the RPF Terril.

You just keep spin digging that hole. Pretty soon you'll find yourself in the Aussie outback where perhaps you can find a shaman who can exorcise more of your demons.

Defend yourself! phooey, let them run you through with their words, for words cannot touch you nor your knowledge until you put up shield

There is no spinning. Was critics who originally used the term "exorcism"
to mock Scn upper level auditing. Its the latter term I originally used.

So if I conrinue to use the term "upper level auditing" I'm no longer doing spin, yes?

Note that my wife and associates do healing and exorcism every week. This too is supposed to be spin?

Frankly whatever I say some idiots are going to say its spin.

Actually NOTs is VERY similar to Jesus telling a demon to go take a hike.

Or is Jesus spinning also?

"Mary,the one from Magdala,from whom seven Demons had taken
their leave…." Luke 8-2

"Jesus questioned him :"What is your name?"
"Legion" ,he said,because many demons had entered him.They kept
begging him not to order them to depart into the abyss……and they
bargained with him to let them enter those pigs.And he agreed.Then the
demons came out of the fellow and entered the pigs…." Luke 8-30 "

The situation is that all beliefs or religions that do anything like exorcism
believe that life is fundamentally spiritual in nature, and that sometimes being connected to this that or the other spirit or fragment of spirit may sometimes be non optimum, and varying methods of spiritual handling is given to assist them.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Snipped.

Actually NOTs is VERY similar to Jesus telling a demon to go take a hike.

This thread is about OT III. You can keep dragging other relgions in as much as you like, but it's still about OT III.

You haven't done NOTS.

I have, and it has absolutely no similarity to anything christian.

Spin.
 

exsomessenger

Patron Meritorious
Great, just great. I read this thread and now I have pneumonia. or was my head supposed to explode?

when I was 11 the oakland tribune came out with a story about OTIII and I remember my father telling me not to look in the paper or read anything because if I did I would catch pneumonia and die. I really wanted to look but he really scared the living shit out of me so I did not. Later when I was on course at flag I was listening to a tape from the SHSBC and LRh started talking about space and a few other things. I asked the course sup if this was the tape I was supposed to listen to, as it had nothing to do with the course I was on. Her face went white and she said no, took the tape and put in a new one. nothing more was said about it.

I did get some headaches but looking back I figured it was because I was working 120 hrs a week and not really eating. not because of the tape. :yes:
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
Great, just great. I read this thread and now I have pneumonia. or was my head supposed to explode?

when I was 11 the oakland tribune came out with a story about OTIII and I remember my father telling me not to look in the paper or read anything because if I did I would catch pneumonia and die. I really wanted to look but he really scared the living shit out of me so I did not. Later when I was on course at flag I was listening to a tape from the SHSBC and LRh started talking about space and a few other things. I asked the course sup if this was the tape I was supposed to listen to, as it had nothing to do with the course I was on. Her face went white and she said no, took the tape and put in a new one. nothing more was said about it.

I did get some headaches but looking back I figured it was because I was working 120 hrs a week and not really eating. not because of the tape. :yes:

probably the 120hr work-week, but listening to hubbard has given people headaches, but not because of any secret stuff mind you :coolwink:
 
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