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Tony O asks why we believe in Xenu

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
..

I understand how people can get hypnotised into believing in Xenu and the Body Thetans, but what about the physics involved in the story - do Scientologists, rather than knowing how to know, end up knowing how to not know? Sure, at first, I guess those exposed to OT3 could've been slightly overwhelmed with the data and missed some of the bits and pieces. But, later on, after they'd been duplicating Xenu to their Body Thetans, wouldn't they have wondered about some of the details?

Take the DC8-shaped UFOs carrying the aliens at near to light speed, for example. A high school understanding of inertia makes it apparent that any flesh'n'bone inside the DC8-shaped UFOs would, quicker than an instant, end up sticky little splotches on the rear bulkhead - assuming of course the UFO could itself sustain light speed forces. I mean, didn't the OTs get together every now and then and ponder these things?
 
Well this kind of goes back to my question. Would you consider Scientologists creation story (xenu and the "suppression" of thetans via brain washing) to have similarities with the other major religious stories? ...

Not actually a 'creation story'. If anything it would be hubbard's explanation for why things are as they are here on earth.


... Would you consider xenu to be the lucifer / fall of mankind event? ...

No, although both are mythical events posited by their believers to explain the presence of 'evil' in the world; on the one hand earth, on the other the universe.


... That is assuming we are now equating OTIII to Genesis (Buddhist / Judeo-Christian-Muslim / Hindu) which all share some commonalities. I don't see the commonality between the Xenu story and the others. ...

I just listed one such commonality. See above.

Many others exist. Notably the auditing of 'entities' is in some ways parallel to gnostic practices involving influencing spirits (the root of later concepts of mysticism & magic) and traditional shamanistic practices from disparate cultures dealing with spiritual influences.


... My opinion of course. That OTIII is hidden from most scientologists until they are "ready" to hear it also breaks that similarity with most major religions where the origin story is the basis not the conclusion for peoples faith. ...

That assumption depends very much on times and places. Given a modern day western centric viewpoint that may be predominantly true, but even now there are exceptions; note the mormon church in the u.s. is quite secretive about it's rituals and only elect groups within the mormon congregation are fully admitted into the rites and practices of their temple.

Mystery religions which do not reveal their secrets beyond the inner most initiates are common throughout history. The classical greeks had several such. The christian church started out as one such mystery religion but their mystical secrets became common place with the enforced expansion of christianity as a universal church of the western world. For a thousand years the secrets have been a commonplace due to the forced conversion of the west, but that was not always true.


... Any ways, I would bet most if not all practicing scientoligists fall into the Baker camp of it's a philosophy not a religion and would probably look askance at equivocating the two. ..

It's not a matter of equivocation, but rather one of difference in perspective. The distinction between philosophy or religion is one of the attitude taken in examining the principles involved rather than of the doctrines embraced. A philosophic approach entails a fundamental & personal basis in applied reason. A religious approach entails a willingness to suspend reason in preference to faith or cohesion of religious community.

Buddhism and various other eastern traditions are often variably thought of as either a religion or a philosophy dependent on the cultural context in which they are taught; philosophic school or religious institution. A similar distinction can reasonably be applied to scientology depending upon whether the individual scientologist is motivated principally by the ideas embodied in the discipline (philosophy) or adherence to 'source' and the group (religion).

What too often occurs is that individuals interested in the ideas embodied in the subject are lured into involvement with the religious cult of hubbard through concepts of loyalty to the group.


... I could be wrong though but at it's core, the religious cloaking, would seem to be counter to the tenets of how you "evolve" your thetan.

Religion is a phenomena of social institution. Social institutions inherently are impediments for personal spiritual development. At some point each individual either grows beyond the limits of the culture in which he exists or stagnates as a spiritual being. Ultimately religion hampers spiritual development, whatever the religion.

... This is the way I have taught Dhamma, for crossing, not for keeping. Cast aside even right states of mind, monks, let alone wrong ones, and remember to leave the raft behind. ...

The Dhammapada, P.Lal trans.


... But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. ... Matthew 8:22


Mark A. Baker
 

exsomessenger

Patron Meritorious
..

I understand how people can get hypnotised into believing in Xenu and the Body Thetans, but what about the physics involved in the story - do Scientologists, rather than knowing how to know, end up knowing how to not know? Sure, at first, I guess those exposed to OT3 could've been slightly overwhelmed with the data and missed some of the bits and pieces. But, later on, after they'd been duplicating Xenu to their Body Thetans, wouldn't they have wondered about some of the details?

Take the DC8-shaped UFOs carrying the aliens at near to light speed, for example. A high school understanding of inertia makes it apparent that any flesh'n'bone inside the DC8-shaped UFOs would, quicker than an instant, end up sticky little splotches on the rear bulkhead - assuming of course the UFO could itself sustain light speed forces. I mean, didn't the OTs get together every now and then and ponder these things?

what I would wonder is after spening tuns of dollars and time getting to OTIII would the OT's wonder why LRH put a fucking volcano on the cover of DMSMH.

after all this don't tell as it will kill normal humans if they found out any of the info and the is a giant restimulator right there on the cover. providing of course it was all true.
 

SomeGuy

Patron Meritorious
Not actually a 'creation story'. If anything it would be hubbard's explanation for why things are as they are here on earth.
Mark A. Baker

That fine distinction is why the use of religious cloaking to equivocate some scientology practices seems rather odd. It would be akin to claiming to follow Jesus while being a mass murderer and stating that "love that neighbor" was just his interpretation.

I know it falls in to the whole "true for you" dogma that attempts to put what hubbard discussed as only his version granting the concepts a free pass but isn't one of the key tennets of scientology that hubbard was source and is/was infallible?

I get that you can interpret things in which ever way you see fit. I think when you do that you are no longer talking about Scientology, you're talking about something else. Akin to I'm not a Jew but I think the ten commandments are a good thing.

What too often occurs is that individuals interested in the ideas embodied in the subject are lured into involvement with the religious cult of hubbard through concepts of loyalty to the group.

Isn't that by design though?
 
That fine distinction ...

It's not a fine distinction at all. It is very clear distinction. :no:

Creation myths deal with exactly that creation. An obvious example, the big bang theory. It is the popular currently excepted creation myth for the physical universe. It is not strictly speaking known to be true as it represents at best a guess of what occurred in the universe prior to the earliest point for which there exists supportive data.

Frankly, bbt represents at most a 'best guess' at conditions which lie outside the bounds of mathematical & physical models. Alternate models exist which also conform to the known data.

The xenu myth is an attempt to explain the state of confusion & chaos which seems to prevail in human affairs. In that it more closely aligns with the christian myth of the fallen angel lucifer or the norse myth of the god loki than with a creation myth. These latter are myths concerning the presence of evil in the world and not creation myths. Another notable example of such is the pandora myth.

Incidentally, myths need not be untrue. The word is from greek and symply means a story, either fictional or not. Overwhelmingly in the history of cultures they represent stories about phenomena which are not well understood.

Myths serve many different purposes, only sharing the functioning of providing a metaphorical explanation for a psychological process, phenomenon, or experience of human consciousness.

If you are going to categorize things in your discussion at least make an attempt at some measure of accuracy in your categorization. Inaccuracy of statement leads to misconceptions, false statements, and a failure to comprehend.


Mark A. Baker
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Not talking about you Claire. Don't know why you've got that impression.

I honestly didn't know. You were using the term Scientologists, plural, and it seemed that only two people were posting opinions of the one sort (theory that there was an analogy or similarity there) and one was me.

Also-and you didn't do this- some people were all like you and Terril etc etc.

And your comments were made after some of mine.

But in any event, let me take the opportunity to say that I just didn't think it odd to find someone saying that in Scn getting rid of bts- albeit by dint of a different method-had some similarity to the idea that other belief systems believe in getting rid of unwelcome spirits of any sort invading the body. This is not meant to upset anyone or go nyah nyah, your religion isn't any good. It's just the way it seems to me.

I don't think anyone should feel bad if someone points out a similarity that they think-rightly or wrongly- happens to be there.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
You know Claire, I haven't the faintest idea why you've taken my comments as being directed at you. They're not.

And I have no problem with you having an opinion different from my own. Why would I?


Hard to tell with posts like 309 and 311 being posted right after mine, referring to points of view I share with one other person on this thread and without attributions/quotes other than your quoting something you'd said earlier.

I wrote some lengthy posts taking the time to actually say why I thought what I thought and attempting to explore the premise. The resulting responses (including yours)were less than encouraging and seemed to take a dim view of anyone making such comparisons.
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

Creation myths

-snip-

The xenu myth

-snip-


We know that Incident 2 is not a creation story. We got it.

And the "Xenu myth" is another J. Gordon Melton line. Incident 2 is not a "myth." Myths develop in cultures over many centuries. Incident 2 is an INCIDENT (time, place form, and event) as delineated by L. Ron Hubbard, a few decades ago, and preserved in his audio recording and his writings.

Please stop attempting to confuse people.

It's not a nice thing to do.
 
... Isn't that by design though?

Frankly I doubt it. Conspiracy models fail because they require that the antagonists be supremely more capable than those around them. That is rarely ever true, certainly not in the case of hubbard.

The reality is that humans are social animals and tend naturally to conform to their groups. It is the basis for family, tribal, community, national, etc., behaviors. Once you set up a group the natural tendency is for members of the group to police themselves so as to maintain a degree of conformity among members. Gossip and 'being in the know' are the common tools of communication used in all human groups to ensure & enforce adherence to group morals.

There is nothing about this which is peculiar to scientology.


Mark A. Baker
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Hard to tell with posts like 309 and 311 being posted right after mine, referring to points of view I share with one other person on this thread and without attributions/quotes other than your quoting something you'd said earlier.

I wrote some lengthy posts taking the time to actually say why I thought what I thought and attempting to explore the premise. The resulting responses (including yours)were less than encouraging and seemed to take a dim view of anyone making such comparisons.

Yeah, I see what you mean, but nothing was intended for you. When I talk about 'The Freezoners' that doesn't include you in my thinking, because you've made it clear that you're no longer a Scientologist. That applies even when Terril is up on his 'metaphorical' cross :omg: Lol.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
It's interesting that you do come out posting when dear Terril is under the gun. I've seen it many many times. And YES YES YES YES you have EVERY FRIGGIN RIGHT TO DO THAT IF YOU WISH.

LOL, ok?

I'm certainly not the least bit upset. It's hilarious.

The subject was lying about OT III. Not comparative religious studies in exorcism. So you take that ball and start running with it, you get lumped in - simple enough.


EDIT: Yes, I agree with Smilla. You can have all the opinions you want and express them however and as much as you like. I will do the same.

It's interesting that people seem to have such a problem with my discussing Terril's posts and their comments about them. I mean, so freaking what if I do that? And there are plenty of times I don't bother or that I say I disagree with him.

There are plenty of people who respond to each other on this forum and who add their commentary to that of their friends. Want to know where I learned to post on this? On critical fora. Not in CofS. Not in the firms where I worked. No, I learned it from critics of Scientology. But in any event, so what. It need not matter. This is a public forum. Stuff gets posted for anyone to respond to. I mean, you can try and tell me what to do by either mocking me or accusing me of spinning but it won't get you anywhere.

You can either discuss the subject with me like two people sitting down to chat- and with friends and acquaintances also chiming in- like a polite person in a normal society or you can deal with the push back you'll get from me when you start scolding or mocking me or anyone else. I also wrote posts about my personal opinion about bts, spiritual infestation, etc. And I know you saw at least one of them because you responded to it. I didn't get those opinions from Terril. I got them from myself.

And if you're not upset, then why the caps...LOL.

I also don't see that Terril's "under the gun". I think that if anyone thinks that, they've got a rather exaggerated view of what forum regulars can do to other forum regulars.

But in the end, it doesn't matter if you're happy, sad, mad or bad. I'm not going to stop posting my opinions and I'm not going to stop responding to people who accuse me of spinning right after I write a detailed explanation of what I think on the subject and I'm not going to stop defending a friend if I want to do that. I stick up for critics and criticism, too, all the time and if that were you being targetted by a churchie or something, rest assured I'd respond to that person simiilarly.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Sure. Feel free to discuss the topic with other people without getting all snide. You know, like they do in IRL society.

Really, nobody here's any threat to you and neither are any opinions. It's fine. It's all right.
 
... Myths develop in cultures other many centuries. ...

Simply untrue. No surprise there. :eyeroll:

An obvious counter-example the christian myth of the resurrection took no more than 1 generation to form (documented) and conceivably less time than that. Others are the mythological aspects of the star wars film franchise. Myths take only as long to establish as their dispersal and acceptance as myth in some cultural group.

Frankly V, your understanding of comparative religions, myth, and many other topics is, to put it kindly, unreliable. Similarly your attempts at 'analysis' or 'interpretation' of other's remarks. :eyeroll:

Stick to what you are good at in your posts, namely the posting of archival materials relating to the church of scientology and l. ron hubbard.


Mark A. Baker
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
So NOW the truth comes out...

OMG!! Veda believes in Incident II!!

Veda's a Scientologist!!!

Wow, this really explains a lot.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Re: So NOW the truth comes out...

OMG!! Veda believes in Incident II!!

Veda's a Scientologist!!!

Wow, this really explains a lot.

You know that's not what I mean.

Terril, you, and Mark Baker are attempting to confuse poeple.

The last thing those on ESMB need, especially newbie lurkers, is more confusion.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Well this kind of goes back to my question. Would you consider Scientologists creation story (xenu and the "suppression" of thetans via brain washing) to have similarities with the other major religious stories? Would you consider xenu to be the lucifer / fall of mankind event?

That is assuming we are now equating OTIII to Genesis (Buddhist / Judeo-Christian-Muslim / Hindu) which all share some commonalities. I don't see the commonality between the Xenu story and the others. My opinion of course. That OTIII is hidden from most scientologists until they are "ready" to hear it also breaks that similarity with most major religions where the origin story is the basis not the conclusion for peoples faith.

Any ways, I would bet most if not all practicing scientoligists fall into the Baker camp of it's a philosophy not a religion and would probably look askance at equivocating the two. I could be wrong though but at it's core, the religious cloaking, would seem to be counter to the tenets of how you "evolve" your thetan.

Isn't Incident I the creation story? Inc II came later. Not that I believe in xenu.

I have mixed feelings about the "confidentiality" thing where OTIII is hidden etc. On one hand, I think it's a valid criticism but mainly because of these reasons:

1) It's a crap ton of money (in CofS, not elsewhere)

2) Scn (not just CofS) basically feeds the person the idea.

See, originally I felt (and still sort of do) that there is a tradition that can be found outside Scn for intro'ing/teaching certain ideas and methods are certain times and not before. This can be found in mystical traditions. So I did feel that this is what Scn was doing. And for those who feel that way, who are doing it for that reason, they have my complete approbation..

But, I think having the concept fed to the person completely negates that. But if they didn't do that and didn't charge many tens of thousands to get to OTIII and hundreds of thousands more, then, yeah, I'd be back to defending "confidentiality".
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Re: So NOW the truth comes out...

You know that's not what I mean.

Terril, you, and Mark Baker are attempting to confuse poeple.

The last thing those on ESMB need, especially newbie lurkers, is more confusion.


But...but...you said it wasn't a myth.

Oh oh oh, I'm soooo confused.

Are you attempting to confuse me?

oh noes....
 
I know all the arguments.

INCIDENT 2 IS NOT A "MYTH."

Utterly obsessed with your own views to the point that you really are incapable of following a discussion on any topic, V. :eyeroll:

The one person who clearly is confused is yourself.


Mark A. Baker
 
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